Nope, it was an issue with animation, and looking like crap when NPCs tried to do it.

They never liked any climbing animations they had made for ladders, so never used them. Which isn't really suprising, even today, most ladder climbing animations for NPCs are really slow and robotoic, to make sure it doesn't mess up and start clipping with all the steps on the ladder.

There is also no real need for ladders when stairs or ramps can be logically used in every situations, without any of the problems.

I think Fallout 3 is actually the worst example (along with New Vegas) you could bring here. In these games you knew exactly what to do, you didn't only have a main objective, you also knew where to find the breadcrumbs. That you didn't need to follow this objective is without value.

I was talking about a game that starts out without any main objective. A game that fully embraces and not only demands, but also creates the uncertainty you feel - through it's narrative and it's gameplay, as you are without any thread you could follow. The main quest would begin without you realizing it and by finding it yourself (which would be fairly easy in a game that is primarily about WAR, as Fallout 4 should be - which results in you effectively being thrown into the main quest by exploring and experiencing the world that is about this main quest).

I have a different opinion about the meaning of the title 'Fallout'. Yes, the literal fallout started right after the bombs fell.

First, the literal fallout is still around in the world even 200 years after the Day.

Secondly, the Great War is another kind of war. That would go quite well with your idea actually, since the first experience would be about you "winning" the Great War - the only winners are the survivors and even these are losers.

But most importantly, 'Fallout' is meant quite figuratively imo. It's about the aftermath of the Great War, the Fallout, that affected society, humanity and that still continued in the way history would (despite all that divergence thing) - with war. What's Fallout about? Fallout is about Fallout, us and US and war.

And imo, Fallout is not about the Great War. The Great War is a vehicle to transport us into a world that allows for interesting roleplaying. The silence that followed and the years after - these are times about survival, times of the few, not the many. These are times about struggle, combat, lawless family-tribes and great chunks of nothing, not war.

I dont still understand: does bethesda is making right now fallout4 or not?! Lately i saw new wolfenstein game and i thought that they are making right now "wolfenstein: old blood", but not any news from fallout 4 or elder scrolls 6 .........

You will know after E3 in June as we all.

That wasn't a wild guess you know... C'mon, it's been months, stop disagreeing for the sake of disagreement.
(And "no real need for ladders", is really a strange concept to posit; not the least of which because they put ladders in FO3... They just didn't work.)

Thing that's occurred to me as I've been playing through New Vegas for the third time - I wish there was something like a can of spray paint that I could carry around to mark places I'd already explored/looted. I don't know how easy that would be to include, or how many other players are out there who share my OCD need to collect every bit of useful material from any location I visit, but it does seem like something actual post-apocalypse scavengers would do. Anyway, just a thought.

Thanks to telling me that e3 is coming in june! But maybe we know more about fallout4 in pax east 2015?

Halflife did it...FO3 should have been able to; FO4 should be able to... but it won't. A 'tagging with spraypaint' feature would be ammunition against them. It's already bad enough that players can shoot people and then drag the body around... Spraypainting walls would be seen as encouraging hoodlumism.

[Yes, I think that's just as silly you or anyone else here might, but can you not imagine the easy news item there to be made of it? We live in a different world today.]

Doubtful. Bethesda Softworks has attended E3 before and even announced games at E3, but they have never held a press conference at E3. Some people have theorized a Pax East reveal and a game play demo at E3. Assuming that the current project that Bethesda Game Studios developing is ready for game play demo, they could do this, but would they? To generate the biggest splash possible for their first ever E3 press converence, Bethesda Softworks would more likely reveal and demo the BGS projects at the same time.

Your right we should get rid of them in RL.....there really is no point to having ladders at all, just think of all earth's resources we could save if we didn't bother making pointless ladders.

You have a basic understanding of modmaking. Do you?

Then you should recognize that the ladders in FO3 which aren't simply props are used as door teleporters.

There is no code, animation or a try to make player or a NPC climb. (Anchorage and Pitt climbing NPCs are deliberaty made as "cutscene" animation). It's by design that player and NPCs cant climb ladders in FO3/NV and not a bug as you suggest.

Yeah Bethesda should make FO4 a RL simulation it would be surely a great game.

Stunning graphics but some say the gameplay boring.

I'm not, that was Bethesda's official reason for not implementing fully animated ladder climbing in a video interview from around when Skyrim came out. The idea they can't do ladders because of AI has about as much validity as the "they can't do spears because engine limitations!", or the "the engine can't handle a lot of NPCs on the screen at one time so they have to make the battles small!", arguments, which is too say none.

I felt it was quite obvious I meant ladders in the context of fully useable ones where you climbing up them is animated, given that the conversation was about that.

Games have been doing many times worse for years now. Saints Row4 just released an expansion focused on going to hell, and no one complained. Both TF2(2007) and CS:GO(2012) had spray painting also..... and no one complained.

It literally wouldn't even be an issue, it never has been.

Wolfenstein: The Old Blood is not being made by Bethesda Game Studios, it is being made by Machine Games, and published by Bethesda Softworks, which is a different company.

Why would you say that I have claimed it a bug?
*Ah... Language subtleties; nevermind; not a problem. The meaning in (this case) of "they don't work" [as ladders], was that they are not interactive ~they are props, just as you've said.

The ladders that I can remember offhand, are on the boxcars, and in the Antagonizer's lair. What's bad about the boxcar ladders is that the player would in that location naturally try to use those ladders to escape; up to the top of the boxcar... IIRC there were canine encounters in that area.

Now... You tell me why it is that they have no problem creating a chair asset with a starting point for the animation (that the model always moves to before executing the animation), and yet they cannot do the same with a ladder?
They can animate them doing whatever they wish, and the humans all use the same skeleton for the animation. Non-humans needn't use the ladders. Animals and Supermutants can't, and feral ghouls are basically insane humanoid animals.

If it's just armor meshes clipping, then that's a pretty flimsy reason to remove a feature; and in a game where they seem to frown on playing it TPP anyway. The armor mesh isn't even there in FPP mode.


[Not that I could have any luck finding it; I have looked...], but my reason is the same one; an interview. Though after seven or so years I could be recalling the details inaccurately... but that was my recollection.
You bring up silly examples as proofs that out of context would imply that I ever stated them, which I did not.

However, I do believe that the engine does have NPC on screen limitations; more specifically a polygon budget, (surely they could increase the number of NPCs if they used impostering, and/or reduced the mesh detail of the actors ).



And we finally agree on something; though it would seem unintentional. I'm not sure why you think that I disagree.

I'm not interested in that. It sounds like playing Day Z except there are no other players.

I would stop playing such a game and look for another one. That doesn't even qualify as a game to me.

I brought up examples of supposed things the game can't do, that are often used alongside the "AI can't do ladders" argument, to demonstrate the falsehood of them all. Taken out of context, you can make that look like any number of things, just like anything else taken out of context.

It doesn't, the engine was able to support up to 1,000 cliff racers on screen at one in Morrowind's time, and Skyrim has the "The Great Battles of Skyrim" videos that show it isn't a problem there either. The problem lies in spawning NPCs, not the total number of NPCs on the screen at once. If you open up the console, and try to spawn 100 NPCs, you will see they all come out of the exact same point. This causes the game to crash, or lag very badly, because it has to compute all of physics of those 100 NPCs, which are all jammed into one spot, and being pushed out in all directions by the other NPC's physical boundaries. You can get around this by hand placing a spawn point for EVERY SINGLE NPCs, which becomes a nightmare to test, or you can place a few NPC spawn points, and have them generate a new NPC every couple of seconds to slowly build up the number of NPCs on screen, but this creates a weird effect where NPCs look like they are all coming out of an assembly line at the same time.

I was pointing out that I was specifically referring to ladders being fully animated things, rather then just ladders in general, as you so implied when you said

I would agree excluding some sim games where theres no real objective beyond "live a life" or w/e.

And I have a different opinion about it too

"Fallout: The Great War". Hm could be a good title actually for a Fallout 5, or 6 even. Or an Prequel Expansion

Maybe my suggestion/idea would be better in its own whole new post-nuclear/post-apocalyptic IP. A game/story that covers the 3 areas, Pre-War, the War and Apocalypse that follows, and Post-War Open World. Probably. But the Fallout world is so interesting!

I would never dream of being sarcastic.

Wouldn't it be a nice feature to be able to climb up a ladder to the top of a crane in the wasteland as a decent sniper spot without the need for a totally immersive load door (Sarc) ?

With the tech that is coming out (Dying Light, GTAV, Shadows of Mordor, Assassin's Creed series, Mirror's Edge etc.) I wouldn't be surprised if eventually you'll be able to climb ladders immersively and have enemies follow you without problem in upcoming FPS open world RPGs (The Elder Scrolls VI and Fallout 4, or Fallout 5 even). Although, the former we won't see in at least a decade or more (next Elder Scrolls singleplayer game won't come out in a looooooooong loooooooooooooooooooong time, unfortunately).

Interestingly enough, you can with the console; not a crane, but an antenna tower... they do have collision, and the PC can stand on one. If nothing anywhere else ~that~ would have been a good place for an interactive climb.

*Now for the really obvious but missed option: They have both pool balls, and pool tables, each with enabled collision (effectively the same as Duke Nukem 3D did); but unlike Duke3D they also have equippable pool cues... and yet no way to use them together. But you can play pool with the BB-gun instead.


Now imagine for a moment, if they had working pool cues that could strike the balls properly, and be used in VATS.

I would like to see this in FO4; even without the 'working in VATS' option.

Is it just me or does it feel like the calm before the storm. With the hoaxes and unsubstantiated rumors like Kotaku, Schreier and Shinobi602. But then Bethesda announces the Conference at E3. Yes, it could be another IP or ES, sure it's possible, but it seems everything has gone quiet. The same atmosphere when your at a surprise birthday party before the door opens, shhhhhhh... he/she is coming. Everyone holding their breathe to let out SURPRIIISSSSE. I'm not jump'n on a hype train or anything but I'll be honest, I'm gett'n nervously excited.

It's been a very long time since Skyrim's release. Something is bound to happen eventually. Just we've been in the "eventually window" for about a year now.

No news at PAX East so far.... Was there yesterday and bethesda doesn't have a booth or panel....complete no-show unfortunately. Was wearing my vault 101 hoodie too.....

I explained the reason (that I assume) why no playable leaders in an earlier post to this topic. It was a design decision because FO3 already has 3 levels (floor, underground, motorways). Rooftops would have added another one and you have to design the level with leaders in mind (which changes the balance a lot). Leader climbing animations are already in the game (pitt) so its not a technical reason.

For making the pool balls targetable you would have to make them creatures. Which is a waste of resources for me. I understand why no pool minigame or something was made in FO3/NV. Doesn't make sense to have several big games the same features (GTA).