Fallout 4 Speculation, Suggestions and Ideas #191

Post » Sat May 17, 2014 8:24 pm

This thread is so that we can keep all the discussion, rumors and speculation in one place.
This topic is for a friendly discussion of ideas and suggestions for Fallout 4.

We all have opinions about what the next game should have and should not have. Each of us has the right to express that opinion freely. There are points we agree on and points we do not agree on. This means that people are going to disagree with you on some things. Accept that and move on. No need to beat your point so far into the ground that no one wants to look at it any more.

At moderator discretion, threads about specific and distinct topics as they relate to FO4 and the rest of the Fallout series may be acceptable in the Fallout Series forum. General idea/suggestion topics for a future Fallout game will either be closed, or moved to this one.

This thread should be used to discuss items you'd like to see in a future game, gameplay tweaks, quest ideas, things you hope are not in the next game and so on. If you want to discuss major issues, use a separate topic - such as the discussion about adding multi-player or co-op play, which already has a thread. Please search first to see if there is an active/recent thread on a particular topic.

Something to note. Discussions of Child Killing is not allowed on these boards. Don't even bring it up in this thread. It won't happen in any future game from Bethesda, so there is no reason to even discuss it. If you post about this subject, you may be Warned and or Banned from the boards for doing so.

This is also not a thread to discuss current or past Fallout Games, other than to mention an aspect of the game you want to see included, or not included, in a future Fallout game.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1486923-fallout-4-speculation-suggestions-and-ideas-190/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1485487-fallout-4-speculation-suggestions-and-ideas-189/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1484659-fallout-4-speculation-suggestions-and-ideas-188/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1483938-fallout-4-speculation-suggestions-and-ideas-187/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1482975-fallout-4-speculation-suggestions-and-ideas-186/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1482021-fallout-4-speculation-suggestions-and-ideas-185/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1481257-fallout-4-speculation-suggestions-and-ideas-184/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1480783-fallout-4-speculation-suggestions-and-ideas-183/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1480691-fallout-4-speculation-suggestions-and-ideas-182/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1480439-fallout-4-speculation-suggestions-and-ideas-181/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1480278-fallout-4-speculation-suggestions-and-ideas-180/
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Allison C
 
Posts: 3369
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:02 am

Post » Sat May 17, 2014 4:02 pm

The main thing i want to see from the next fallout is for the game to allow me to fail. I want my choices to have bad and good consequences and i want to think about them myself instead of the game basically telling which is which 1000 times over.

If i go out into the wastes without proper supplies i want to pay for it- and pay dearly. Maybe i HAVE to restart or revert to a previous save because i didnt plan properly? Now that would be sweet, imo.

If i kill an innocent person in town, and am seen doing it, i want the town to always hate my guts. Not chase me out of town and then be fine with me coming back a day later. I am an outlaw in that town, at least, and it would be neat if the game reflected that.

The next "must have" for me would be a larger gameplay area. I would like it if walking from town to town took weeks (in game time). Would go a long way to making the game feel more like a wasteland and less like an amusemant park recreation of one.

Both new fallouts are really missing that feeling of emptiness that you get from fo1/2. well honestly the simulation of said emptiness, but at least they attempted to cover distance in a reasonable way instead of making every settlement a suburb of each other.

Take fo3/nv and multiply the distance between every settlement by 10 and i would be a happy camper.
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Adam Kriner
 
Posts: 3448
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:30 am

Post » Sat May 17, 2014 2:56 pm

Some of these things should, imo, be considered and searched for possibilities from while making the game and designing the gameplay (it sounds specific, but it's all just to illustrate the underlying point through examples):


Short version (just bullet points) :

Spoiler


General gameplay:

- More direct skill and stat uses on items, environment and NPC's (healing, repairing, examining, entering worldmap, etc) -- with a supportive interface in the vein of old school RPG's and adventure games.

- No level scaling; or, at most, an adjusting scaling where easy fights do not disappear when the more challenging ones appear.

- More frugal skillpoint economy and higher gaps between levels to make it slower.

- Upwards scaling skillpoint costs for mid and high level increments.

- Wold map and nodes large enough to support exploration (+classic map travel).

- Grid inventory (with both weight and space limits).

- One page character sheet.

- PDA pipboy.

- No compass markers for quests, no compass markers for locations, no compass markers for enemies.

- More comprehensive quest descriptions and mapmarkers for general quest areas (toggleable if possible), let the player find things out him self but don't leave him in the dark without any hints.

- Minimap with perception based (including distance) detection of close by NPC's or critters (also, perception/perk/trait based color codes for disposition).

- Less aggressive wilderness AI. Combat is generally where you want it (not always, but often).

Timed dynamic quests:

- Quests that have timelimits; but instead of said timelimit causing pure failure, it would open up new possibilities (where appropriate, not always).

Lockpicking, repairing, hacking, manual healing:

- A skillcheck with a timebar (not a "timelimit" but how long the attempt takes for the character based on skill versus task difficulty).

- No pausing the world. Everything happens in realtime, so you can get interrupted.

- No minigames.

Gunplay and VATS:

- Skills for projectile weapons greatly (!!!) affect accuracy (spread, sway), recoil control (each bullet fired throwing the aim off the target, and increasing spread), and general handling (reloads, holstering, unholstering, etc).

- Static bullet damage ranges regardless of skill, and generally higher damage output across the board.

- Melee/HtH skills affect attackspeed and damage.

- Critical failures.

- Close proximity penalties for firearms in.

- Less loot and supplies.

- Action points into combat resource; every action aside from moving eats up AP (shooting, reloading, opening inventory, doing stuff in inventory, quick key use.....).

- Focus on less frequent and less "run'n gun", but more slow paced, tactical, challenging and character driven combat.

- Categorized craftable and modifiable weapons with tangible upsides and downsides.

Healing and drugs:

- Tolerance meter for drugs and medication with severe OD effects.

- Maual healing (made viable and needed through less available provisions) - a skillcheck with a possibility to fail and critically fail to cause more damage.

- Animated stimuse to prevent spamming -- or, heal overtime.

Skillsystems:

- Retaining the premise, greatly upping the effects (skills and stats being more of requirements than recommendations as they are now), but revising the workings to better suit the current style of gameplay.



Long version (with more details) :


General gameplay suggestions (again -- but updated):
Spoiler

Here's some of my ideas on along which lines I would like some aspects of Fallout 4 to be made (I posted this before Fallout: New Vegas was even annouced, and several times again since then, but made some changes so I'm not just reposting the same thing over and over again). Whether or not all the following would actually work in the game, is beyond me as I'm not a game designer, but at least to me it sounds decent on paper for altering the current form of FPS gameplay.
The WALL OF TEXT:

A minimenu:

There would be a minimenusystem that would trigger various functions needed during the gameplay. Pressing (for example) the mousewheel would open a dropdown menu (somewhat similiar to Fallout 1 and Fallout 2) beside the cursor that would present commands like Enter Worldmap, Heal, Heal Other, Repair, Rest/Wait etc. If well implemented, this could potentially offer a greater gameplay diversity through bigger possibilities for direct skilluses in several situations. Available commands would be highlighted and non-available would be greyed out.


General gameplay:

The general gameplay would be quite similiar to F3 and F:NV. You roam around the wastes doing quests and exploring. But combat would be less frequent unless the player decides otherwise - in other words, you could pick some of your random fights. (Though I'd very, very much prefer it, I'm not suggesting ISO/TB gameplay, since I don't believe for a second that Beth would implement it no matter what. :dry: )

This could partly be handled through wildlife AI, which would be set less aggressive in general. An aggression stat would be implemented which would vary from species to species - from completely neutral (only defensive combat) to total aggression (hostility almost immediately). The animals would have their own immediate surroundings, or personal spaces, somewhat like in Risen and Gothic series, and partly in F:NV. Get too close and you get a warning sign from the critter giving you time to get out of their space, linger and be chased off (or be attacked, if you don't flee). The radius of the space and the time you are tolerated in it would depend on the critter.

The mainquest would be scaled to a certain degree through chaptering it (not visibly, as in presenting a loadscreen: Chapter 1: In which you slither out from the uaginal cavity and learn the first lessons of life, but through certain major events through the main quest). And after those, the game would replaces some of the lower level enemies with higher level ones in the MQ areas - defeating which (if not gettin past by other means) would require you to level up some more. Or through a nonlinear levelscalingsystem where, for example, when one starts the game at level one, the enemies in the levelscaled zones would range from 1 to 10, and after one hits somewhere between levels 12 to 15 (which ever works the best) some of the lower level creatures scale up to about level 18 to 25 (but not all, to not make the world appearing to spin around the player too much). This would offer both, challenge and sense of progression to the player, as one becomes better than the current enemies before they scale up again.

There wouldn't be any quest- or enemycompasses, but there would be (toggleable, perhaps) minimap in which you could see the living beings in immediate vicinity. Perception would determine the range in which you see things, and with a perk (with appropriate requirements - outdoorsman and perception, for example) you could tell the difference between friendly (green dot), neutral (yellow dot) and hostile (red dot) targets.

The questcompass would be replaced by mere markers on the map which would point towards a general area instead of the exact target. And with that, the quest descriptions would be more accurate.

The wrist pipboy would be scrapped and replaced by a more handheld PDI like contraption, which would offer a more userfriendly inventorysystem (something like mix of what Morrowind or S.T.A.L.K.E.R. had, for example) with less scrolling while still holding the tabs to sort items by their nature, a one page charactersheet much akin to the original games -- no more tabs behind tabs behind tabs. All actions during combat but shooting and moving would cost action points (opening inventory, using items inside it, using quick keys, etc) - more on this later.

Skillcap would remain at 100, but the cost to raise them would rise as follows: 1-50 1:1, 51-75 2:1, 76-100 3:1, the point being, the better you get the more difficult it is to get even better - this would make a maxed skill equal to skillcap of 175 - and I think it'd be easier to utilize the full scale of the skill, if it caps at 100 (instead of having skills cap at 200 or 300). Also, the gaps between levels would be raised:

How it is now (first number is the level, the second XP needed to reach the level from previous point, the third is total amount of XP needed to reach that level):

Spoiler

z=n+(y+150)
z=xp for next lvl
n=xp 'til prev lvl
y=previous xp raise

2 - 200 - 200
3 - 350 - 550
4 - 500 - 1,050
5 - 650 - 1,700
6 - 800 - 2,500
7 - 950 - 3,450
8 - 1100 - 4,550
9 - 1250 - 5,800
10 - 1400 - 7,200
11 - 1550 - 8,750
12 - 1700 - 10,450
13 - 1850 - 12,300
14 - 2000 - 14,300
15 - 2150 - 16,450
16 - 2300 - 18,750
17 - 2450 - 21,200
18 - 2600 - 23,800
19 - 2750 - 26,550
20 - 2900 - 29,450
21 - 3050 - 32,500
22 - 3200 - 35,700
23 - 3350 - 39,050
24 - 3500 - 42,550
25 - 3650 - 46,200
26 - 3800 - 50,000
27 - 3950 - 53,950
28 - 4100 - 58,050
29 - 4250 - 62,300
30 - 4400 - 66,700

How it should be (first number is the level, the second XP needed to reach the level from previous point, the third is total amount of XP needed to reach that level) for example:

Spoiler

z=n+(y+200)
z=xp for next lvl
n=xp 'til prev lvl
y=previous xp raise

2 - 200 - 200
3 - 400 - 600
4 - 600 - 1,200
5 - 800 - 2,000
6 - 1000 - 3,000
7 - 1200 - 4,200
8 - 1400 - 5,600
9 - 1600 - 7,200
10 - 1800 - 9,000
11 - 2000 - 11,000
12 - 2200 - 13,200
13 - 2400 - 15,600
14 - 2600 - 18,200
15 - 2800 - 21,000
16 - 3000 - 24,000
17 - 3200 - 27,200
18 - 3400 - 30,600
19 - 3600 - 34,200
20 - 3800 - 38,000
21 - 4000 - 42,000
22 - 4200 - 46,200
23 - 4400 - 50,600
24 - 4600 - 55,200
25 - 4800 - 60,000
26 - 5000 - 65,000
27 - 5200 - 70,200
28 - 5400 - 75,400
29 - 5600 - 81,000
30 - 5800 - 86,800
31 - 6000 - 92,800
...and so on up to, say 50The formula I made may not be correct, but the point remains.



Timed, dynamic quests:
Spoiler

For the larger events, and where appropriate otherwise, the game would take time into account. Not to push for failure (except for where it's appropriate), but for altering the conditions of the quest. Like postponing a quest (which is narrated as "urgent") enough, and the conditions to solving it get harder.

Simple example (somewhat paraphrasing the Goodsprings versus Powder Gangers situation):

You get a mission from a village mayor to scout some raiders and find out why they've been appearing so active lately. You obtain info about an upcoming raid on the village you got the mission from "in two or so weeks". You neglect it and go about your business for a while. Then you decide to finish the quest and deliver the info, but upon arrival, you notice that the raiders have seized the village, killed most of the denizens and captured the rest. Two options from there on to solve the quest (1) Take on the raiders and free the captives, or (2) Strike a deal with the raiders and recieve an additional questphase.

Had you delivered the intel in time, the village would've prepared and fought the raiders off with (or without) your further help.

These events would be there to point out that the world doesn't revolve around the player and that neglecting given responsibilities has consequences.



Map and Travelling:
Spoiler

A return to the classic worldmap system (with some tweaks to make it look more... erm, "modern"). The actual FPP/TPP playground area would be roughly about 2x or 3x the size of Fallout New Vegas; and the area is divided into 5-7 (or so) hubs scattered in the worldmap which vary in size and content. General gameplay in those would be about the same as in F3 and F:NV, run around and do local quests and explore.

When you enter the node you could spawn at any "formidable" (as in settlementlike in size) location you've already found. The first time entering a node you would spawn at the side of the map on special spawnpoint for that purpose (which could be used later on too, of course).

Outdoorsmanskill is reintroduced (or merged within the Survival skill) and works similiarly to Fallout 1&2 with the difference that nonhostile encounters are always avoidable should the player so decide (to decrease the amount of loadscreens).

The worldmap itself is zoned in couple of ways:
- The farther away from the starting position, the harder the enemies and vice versa; but there is still a (small) chance to encounter harder enemies on starting grounds and vice versa, based on outdoorsmanskill, luck and placement of the zone (but still keeping the MQ areas within reasonable range of enemies).
- The map is zoned into territories, which each have their set of unique enemies as well as a few commonones that can be found on every zone.

Each zone has about 5-7 small maps for random/special encounters, which are either hostile or nonhostile, and are based on the topography of the location in the worldmap and the contents of the encouters would be based on the zone in which it occurs.

The visitable locations on map would be as follows: A settlement - with explorable wasteland around it to provide smaller sidequest and exploring. Or just a visitable location like a majorsized building, militarybase, factory etc. They could even include two settlements, but in general all towns would be much bigger than those in Fallout 3 or New Vegas.

Each settlement has its own set of architecture (not too different from other settlements, but so that one can tell the difference), general theme and mindsets. These are small things, but they would add a lot of variety to the game.

Entering worldmap from a node would happen through the edges of the map. In Fallout 3, when you bumb to an edge of the map, you get a popup message that says: "you cannot go further that way" - now it would be like this: "e) enter worldmap".

To not have to always run to the edge of a map, you could use the minimenu command "Enter Worldmap", which could not be used indoors, during combat or if there are enemies nearby. However, escaping combat through the edge of the map would be possible.

Fasttravel through world map would offer options for pacing (could be enabled by a perk, or be an ability from the get go). Such as "Cautious", "Casual", and "Rushing". Where "Casual" would be the normal travelspeed with no bonuses or hits, "Cautious" a much slower, but with giving a bonus to outdoorsman in determining avoidance of an encounter, and "Rushing" much faster, but with giving a hit to outdoorsman. There would also be related quests, solving which could be easier by utilizing this system (to make it have a bigger point).



Repairing:
Spoiler

Repairing happens either with repairkits, by gunsmiths in towns/caravans, or by a duplicate.

The kits would repair a fixed and relatively large amount of CND and have limited amount of succesful uses (and would offer a small bonus to the skill and crit. failure) each, but they would be expensive to buy, weight a somewhat hefty amount and would also be weakened and eventually broken by a certain amount of critical failures and general wear. Gunsmiths and repairmen would be very expensive but would get the job done no matter what. A duplicate would repair a small amount of CND (with no bonuses or hits to skill or crit. chance) so that you'd have to weigh the benefit of losing the weapons monetary value against the increase in CND (at least at early stages of the game).

Success in repairing is dependant on repairskill (a diceroll happens, dreadful I know). And the repairing takes a certain amount of time (few seconds) depending on the chance of success.

One would now be able to repair guns and armor beyond his/her skill but the further above the skill they go the harder they would get to repair. The math is irrelevant (as long as it complements the premise), but here's a quick idea on how it could go:

After the guns/armors condition is above the skill, the amount going above is turned into percentages that is taken away from the skill. IE: skill = 30 and rifles condition = 80. Condition - skill = 50. 50% of skill (30) is 15. So trying to repair a weapon in condition of 80 with a repairskill of 30 would give a chance of success of 15%. This is not necesserely realistic, but it is assuming that the more shiny the condition gets, the more difficult (but not impossible) it would be to repair it further.

Guns and armor would also have a chance for a critical failure if an attempt to repair fails. Critical failure, instead of repairing the gun, has a reverse effect. The chance would be from 1% to 10% (depending on the weapon) if a trait or a perk doesn't raise/lower it.

The increased hardship of repairing would be compensated via much slower degredation rate (based on the weapon, of course), though the effects of CND (jamming during firing, reloading disorders, rate of fire, damage, buying/selling values) would also be much bigger and more frequent.

There would also be a possibility to repair broken robots or computers or what ever there is to repair, by pointing the target opening minimenu and selecting repair.

Also, while repairing would work much like explained above (the 1-100 CND scale would remain in the background to provide for it but all effects would be tied to the 20% thresholds - when attempting to repair, you'd see the successrate according to how the 1-100 scale behind the screen), the visible item health would be changed to 1-5 scale, to offer more robust effects.

The weapon health would be changed from being a 1-100 scale to 1-5 scale and give each rank more profound effects on the weapon, additionally I'd hide the item health-o-meter and add a title in front of the item name so that one never knows exactly where their weapon health goes.

Example:

- Well Maintained Assault rifle or Fine Assault Rilfe (CND 5; well maintained bonus: accuracy +5%, no disorders, -5% from critical failure chance))
-> Assault rifle (CND 4; assault rifle at its default condition, no extra bonuses, but 5% chance of jam)
-> Dirty assault rifle (CND 3; -5% to accuracy, -10% to rate of fire, 15% chance of jam, 10% higher chance of "critical failure")
-> Worn Assault rifle (CND 2; -10% to accuracy, -10% to rate of fire, 20% chance of jam, 15% critical failure chance)
-> Crummy Assault rifle (CND 1; -20% to accuracy, -15% to rate of fire, 25% chance of jamming, 20% chance of critical failure)
-> Broken Assault rifle (CND 0; no shooting with this piece of [censored] anymore, no repairing it either, skilled weaponsmith NPC's could repair it at a cost up to CND 2 for the same price they usually take from full repair from 1 to 5, or offer a few caps from the spare parts)

With each rank, while going downwards, requiring varying degrees of usage. And Repairing (success and amount of repair (from half a rank to 1 rank) would happen through skillchance affected by certain factors (Gun cnd, duplicate cnd, repairkit, skill level, etc). CND 5 would be a high skill privilege reachable by no lower than 80 in repair.

I would boost all the negative effects and make them count much higher in combat.

Additionally I would add cleaning kits to add a slight timed bonuses to the weapons (-> Clean worn assault rifle: cleaned bonus +5% accuracy, +5% rate of fire, -10% jamming, for example).

With Melee and armed HtH the effects would consist of damage reduction, and higher critical failure rate (which would break the weapon).
With Armors the effects would consist of lowered DT and DR and lowered "social status" (when going on in really crummy gear, people initially think your a vagran or a bum just loitering around).



Healing & drugs:
Spoiler

Stimpak usage would be animated, so no more smashing a quick key for dozens of stims in few seconds (I like this method more than the concept of heal overtime from HC-mode of F:NV). The speed of the animation would be dependant of the related skill (doctor). More over stims now would always heal the same amount (no skill effect in there), and they would come in two variations: stimpaks and superstimpaks. Both of which would be rare and expensive (so that you cannot live off of them, but also have to rely on other methods of healing) and superstims much more so than ordinary stims.

The player would have a tolerance meter which would measure how much the player can medicate himself before overdosing. Overdosing would cause an instant loss of health according to how much the limit is surpassed and would also cause some visual distortions and statloss. The effect would last for a while and the time would be depending on endurance and doctor skill (and perks/traits that would modify it). The tolerance meter slowly lowers itself after the medication is done, and the magnitude it is filled is dependant on the drug used (powerful drugs - like Jet and superstims for example - obviously fill it more quickly), related skill and perks/traits modifying it. Using food as a healer would not affect the tolerance meter, but food would have a heal-over-time effect.

Doctorskill would be reintroduced and so would manual healing. Manual healing would be similiar to Fallout 1 & 2 (only a few uses/24hours - they would take few in-game hours to be completed - success is determined by skill), and couldn't be used in combat or when enemies are nearby. Healing cripples wouldn't be possible with stims or sleeping, but would require manual healing and the ability to heal cripples would be dependant of the doctorskill and the skillrequirements of the crippled bodypart (head and torso would be harder to treat than legs and hands), otherwise a doctor is a must see.

Manual healing would be entered by the minimenu, which would also have the "heal other" option to heal a companion or other alive being in need of assistance.

Healing through sleeping would work similiarly to Fallout 1 & 2.

Addiction would need a doctor or a certain amount (pretty long) of time to heal. Radiation poisoning needs a doctor or radaway (which would be rare and expensive).



Gunplay & VATS (should it be implemented):
Spoiler

Gunskills would now have much heavier effect on waivering and general accuracy than what it is in F3, utilizing the skill and STR requirement system from New Vegas (but more heavyhandedly). In addition, the players stance, movement, weapons type and recoil also would affect it.

The normal (according to skill) situation would be standing still and aiming through iron sights (firing from hip would give a large hit on accuracy). Crouching would give a small bonus to accuracy and going prone would give a slightly bigger bonus (with the bonus from aiming coming on top of that). The tradeoff with going prone and being accurate would be extremely slow moving and turning, and it would take its time for the player to get up and ready the weapon again. Firing from the hip would cause bigger spread. Movement would also give a hit to accuracy -- the faster you move, the bigger the waivering with ironsights and spread with hipfiring. Recoil would work dynamically based on the gun used, and would throw the aim off a bit with each shot (while bursting, the amount of recoil per shot would stack up eventually leading to firing straight up -- with hipfire, the "offaim" would be a bit smaller, but the spread would increase).

Guns would do generally more damage and the damagestats would be ranges. IE: Huntingrifle - dmg 11-20, like in Fallout 1&2, but with growth of related skill raising the minimum amount closer to the maximum (though not as far as up to having a static damage, there would always be some range left).

The combat overall would go through a total overhaul. No more run 'n gun FPS bullsh*t but more slowpaced, focused and tactical. A RTwP/TB (optable) setup with full control over the player character and partymembers would be nice. But of course that ain't gonna happen since nothing but horrid FPS twitching is viable in the gaming market anymore, and Bethesda does not deviate for their 15 year old formula...

So instead, actionpoints would count in combat (suggested before by me and some others).


A simple example:


Lesser cost rate:
Shooting (very low cost) - shooting with not enough AP's left would give a hefty penalty to accuracy and recoil control
Reload (low cost) - reloading with not enough AP's left would triple the time it takes to reload and increase the chances for reload failure

Moderate cost rate:
Using quick keys (cost rate depending on what's being done, changing a weapon (moderate cost), using stims (higher moderate cost), changing ammunition (high moderate cost due to including reloading)) - with not enough AP's, quick keys won't work, no stimspamming or changing weapons, tough luck.

High cost:
Inventory access - with not enough AP's, inventory access is denied, run for cover and wait for the AP's to refill.
Using items inside inventory - if AP's run out during doing something in the inventory, you can still browse and assign quick keys, but after that only action allowed is to exit inventory.

Additionally, no AP's left would increase running speed for... say.... oh well, for examples sake, 20% to provide chances to get to cover while AP's recharge.

And AP's would recharge much slower while moving and at normal rate while being still.

All that only during combat (and during shooting/whacking thin air when not in combat for the lesser cost actions).

Consider AP's in the lesser cost section as representing exhaustion.
And in the moderate and high cost sections as representing mental strength, situtional loss of focus, a panic of sorts leading to indesicion and inability to operate properly.

NPC's would also have their own AP's which would dictate their performance (a bit differently than the PC, since NPC's don't use quick keys or the sort).

In vats you would now have an option to choose a firing mode. Rapid fire - a hastily aimed rapid shooting towards the target; or aimed shots, which would be the opposite of rapid fire.

Rapid fire would lower the accuracy a bit and you could only target a foe as a whole; but it would spend less actionpoints, while aimed shots would cost more and calculate the accuracy without minuses, and you would be able to target specific body parts. The bonuses and hits of chosen stance would be similiar to those in realtime firing.

Being prone in vats would force you to choose a firing sector (so that the player doesn't spin like a dreidel in all directions while being the most accurate he can). Prone position would also be the most expensive stance to fire from, while standing would be the cheapest, and being crouched in the middle. The player would be able to change his preferred stance in VATS, but at a cost.

About craftable weapons... I once toyed around with an idea where there was to be 3 categories of weapons based on their craftmanship. I can't quite recall all the specifics, but the general idea was to have:

Category 1: Post war selfmade weaponry (craftable, high damage output, cheap and easy to repair, high availability, high modability, fairly cheap -- but, non reliable (prone to jam and reload disorders regardless of CND), low accuracy, fast deterioration rate (constant need of repairing)).
Category 2: Pre war Home defense weaponry (more reliable, more accurate, lesser deterioration rate -- but, less damage output, more expensive, less available, moderately harder to repair, non-craftable and less modable).
Category 3: Pre war military grade weaponry (Very high damage output, very high accuracy, very high reliability -- but, extremely expensive and rare, barely modable, non-craftable, very hard to repair).

Something along those lines, and with each category having 1-3 (max) base weapons for each type of weapon (pistols, SMG's, rifles, assault rifles, machineguns, shotguns etc). You'd that way have an entire category of highly modable weapons to craft from scratch and alternatives which have their ups and downs over that category. Weaponcrafting could be handled through related skillthresholds (what ever the skillsetup for that sort of crafting would be).

Close combat penalties for firearms (especially heavy and long arms).

- In face to face combat where the other side is toting a firearm, a chance (manual triggering for the player, but chance based success) for the NPC to perform defensive move and shove the players gun and facing off and slightly stagger the player (and possibly then deliver a more damaging blow/s). This to remove the horrendous way it is now where... you know how it is, and possibly slightly improve closecombat.

Also, damage bonus for melee/HtH enemies (animals included) that come in numbers (overwhelm the player). One guy with a knife or one gecko might seem harmless to your assault rifle toting combatarmor wearing character, but if there are three or more, you better dispatch them before they reach you or you are in serious trouble no matter what armor you wear (if the DT eats all the damage, turn it into fatigue damage that'll eventually collapse the PC after which the foes start to pummel the "weak spots" in the armor and healt starts to drop).

Generally, turn up the damage done by weapons -- the previous situation might seem that it puts a melee oriented PC in a rougher than needed position, but if you are skilled enough, and if the damage values are higher, you may be able to drop one or two before they get to overwhelm you (if you see a group or powerarmored melee units, though, you might want to reconsider attacking them with melee yourself unless you are absolutely skilled and geared enough).
In addition, projectile weapon skills affecting accuracy, not damage (except for - possibly - higher critical dmg multipliers). And locational armor DT values (head, torso, feet, hands).
Enemies and the PC are generally more easily taken down by weapons (no more people eating 30 bullets or 50 stabs and still coming on strong), but only if you know how to use them.



Lockpicking:
Spoiler

Success is determined by skill so that you can try to pick any lock from very easy to very hard; and NO minigame involved. It would work somewhat like repairing; lock level - skill (if the skill is under the lock level) = percentual number that is taken from the skill. If the skill surpasses lock level, the chances are purely skillbased with maximum chance of success being 95% (this, the max chance, would go for every chance based system). And the percentual chance would be presented when moving the reticle over the locked object: E) Pick lock [Very hard: 13%], for example.

Lockpicking would be animated so that you either see your characters hands doing the job (FP view) or seeing your character from behind (TP view). You would have the ability to turn your head (or the camera) some ways left and right to see if someone is coming - so the game doesn't pause during the picking. But looking away from what you're doing, would have an effect (see below).

Picking locks would take a certain amount of time depending on your skill and level of the lock (aka the chance of success). When attempting, there would be a timebar similiar to what Vampire - The Masquerade: Bloodlines had. Skill would give bonuses to the time it takes to pick a lock in such manner that you don't get bonuses to picking hard locks before your skill surpasses maximum level of normal locks. More over, the bonuses would stop stacking up after your skill surpasses the next level of difficulty (no bonuses to picking normal locks after skill level of 75, for example, depicting that there is no way to open that kind of lock any better - other than with a fluke).

Each lock would have a certain amount of tries before (if you keep failing) the lock jams for a certain amount of time (preferably at least a couple of weeks, so that your attempts at just waiting at the lock for it to unjam would be a tedious job and prevent exploitation of the system). Moreover locks would have a chance for a critical failure that would immediately jam the lock despite if it was you first attempt, and critical success, which could occur at any point during the time it takes to pick the lock -- both of these chances would be very small.

This system would also be fit for hacking.



Difficulty settings:
Spoiler

The difficulty setting would affect the following:

Startingpoints of th skills (this would work so that easy players would be able to max out almost everything and the harder you go, the less can max out and the more you need to rely on specializing). The toggle would work dynamically so that if you start with easy and change it to hard half away through, your skill would take an appropriate hit.
The gaps between levels -- the harder the setting, the more XP you need for a levelup.
Base carry weight (before STR modifier).
Base HP (before END modifier).
Number of encountered enemies
Slight (!) changes in NPC/critter HP and damage modifiers

HC mode (one time toggle on/off, no flipflopping) would affect the following:

Number of enemies encountered
Severity of negative effects (stat/skill losses and their effects, crippled limbs, diseases, poison effects, etc)
Add a Nutrition gauge (thirst and hunger combined) -- could do without this though.
Damaging effect of radiation.
Add weight for absolutely everything (meds, ammo, random clutter like pencils, everything).
Slower base speed for stimpakking (before skill modifiers).
Harsher addiction and withdrawal effects.
I'll come up more when I have time...



Thoughts on a skillsystem more (IMO) in line with the current gameplaystyle (This will contradict with some of the ideas in the longer suggestion above as I haven't had time to merge them properly, but that doesn't matter as I endorse both systems.) - now with an incomplete (har har) SPECIAL outline:
Spoiler

Ok, so going by the current gameplaystyle where dicerolls no longer apply (which is a shame)... redesign the characterprogression system to better suit it (to be more responsive and give more immediate feedback to the player as s/he progresses).

At character developement every SPECIAL defaults as 5 as it is now, but there are no bonuses to add, just a possibility to rearrange the points. Increasing SPECIAL during the game, would be a special occurance like finding an implant and then someone who can install it. Traits increasing stats would offer an equal drawback in some other stat (or a general drawback). There'd be an individual perk for every stat offering a one time bonus of plus one -- as it was in the original Fallouts. And rare cases where an equippable item gives a bonus for during the time it is equipped (like how PA gives a bonus to strength). Nothing more. The point is to make the character one builds to hold throughout most of the game. And to help that there'd be hard SPECIAL requirements for certain items and activities.

Perks would be more like additional abilities that the skills do not govern straightforward (like pistolwhipping, enhancing stimpaks, increasing inventory space and/or such) but still offer the requirements for. They'd also have tiers (up to 3) to enhance said abilities when appropriate.

Skills would now have a 1-10 and some others 1-5 point scale. With each point cumulatively increasing the price of buying it. Each of these points would also hold more to it than mere nominal increases with little to no visible effect (like how it is now with the 1-100 scale). The skills would work more like thresholds opening new related abilities than random numerical values. At characterbuilding phase each skill would default to 0, but the player would have 4 free points to put in which ever skills s/he wishes with the maximum initial increase being 2.

A couple of "along the lines of" -examples of the skills and their effects:
Spoiler


Guns:
oooooooooo
Cost : The first two - 5sp, 3rd and 4th - 10sp, 5ft and 6th - 15sp, 7th and 8th - 20, 9th and 10th - 25sp. This would equal a skillcap of 150 with the current method.
Effect: 0 p oints - You are so terrible with guns you suffer 50% damageloss and 75% of accuracy loss with any conventional firearm, plus your unholstering, holstering and reloading take much more time. Points 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 would open "proper" usage of guns in their respective tiers of 1-5. Having lacking skill of one tier would result in 50% penalty to accuracy and 25% penalty to damage, lacking 2 or more tiers would offer similiar penalties of 75% and 50% plus decresed reloadspeed and increased probability of jamming during reload and firing regardless of weapon condition.
Points 1, 3, 5, 7 and 9 would offer a 25% bonus to accuracy for the previous tier of weapons (except for 1, which would offer it to the next tier and 10 which would offer an accuracy bonus to all tiers), and similiarly with damage but with an increase of 15%.
This would make increasing the skill a paramount act, if one wishes to master it (unlike with the current system where a skill 50 - for example - is quite adequate to handle all given situations the game offers).

Energy weapons:
oooooooooo
Cost: 5, 5, 10, 10, 15, 15, 20, 20, 25, 25
Effect: Similiar to guns otherwise, but in place of damage increases/decreases would be heating/cooldown effects which would be harsh enough to greatly limit firing large amounts of highly powerful energy ammunition. In effect, energy weapons would be much more powerful than guns, but also much more limited in rate of fire and most of them would also, due to their light effects, hinder stealth.

Melee:
oooooooooo
Cost : 5, 5, 10, 10, 15, 15, 20, 20, 25, 25
Effect: Same as guns and ew with tiers, but in place of accuracy increases/decreses would be attackspeed. Lacking a tier would offer a 50% penalty for overall damage and 25% for attackspeed, lacking 2 tiers similiarly 75% and 50%. Points 3, 6 and 9 would also offer a "special move" which would be slower than normal attack, but more powerful.

Explosives:
ooooo
Cost: 5, 10, 15, 20, 25
Effect: With explosive based weapons, refer to the guns section. 0 points, you can throw grenades and dynamite very inaccurately, that's it; 1 point - opens up the ability to create and tinker with satchelcharges and firebombs and removes penalties from grenades and regular dynamite; 2 points - landmines and their modified and custom variants enter the picture; 3 points - creation and operating with C4, semtex, and other plastic explosives and remote detonatables; 4 points - Energybased explosives (electricity, EMP, plasma, etc) explosives; 5 points - Mix and match your own cocktails with all available ingredients.

Sneak:
ooooo
Cost: 5, 10, 15, 20, 25
Effect: With 0 points you do not sneak, you're so clumsy that going crouched wouldn't make any difference. Each point decreases the chance of detection according to circumstances (LOS distance, lighting, sound) by 15%. Also, point 1 - ability to use light armor without penalties, point 3 - ability to use medium armor with decreased penalties, point 5 - ability to use heavy armor with decreased penalties.

Speech:
ooooo
Cost: 5, 10, 15, 20, 25
Effect: Wit h 0 points, regular default dialog (plus other skill/perk related options); with points 1-5, thesholds for related speech-check lines.

Lockpick:
ooooo
Cost: 5, 10, 15, 20, 25
Effect: Wit h 0 points you do not pick locks, you simply have no idea how to. Each point opens up ability to open locks at respective levels. The skill also modifies the amount of time an attempt takes. Also, if a minigame is involved, which I wouldn't put there, each tier increases the durability of the lockpick when attempting current or previous tiers.

Barter:
ooooo
Cost: 5, 10, 15, 20, 25
Effect: 0 points - 20% selling value, 200% buying value; 1 point - 40% selling value, 175% buying value; 2 points - 60% selling value, 150% buying value; 3 points - 80% selling value, 125% buying value; 4 points - 100% selling value, 100% buying value; 5 points - 120% selling value, 75% buying value.

Science:
ooooo
Cost: 5, 10, 15, 20, 25
Effect: Hacking abilities similiar to lockpicking. Also handling the modding requirements for energy weapons. Thresholds for various skilluses outside of inventoryitems.

Repair:
ooooo
Cost: 5, 10, 15, 20, 25
Effect: 0 points - you do not repair anything by yourself, Point 1 - Repair light armor to top condition, medium armor to 50% CND, and heavy armor to 25%, Point 3 - Repair medium armor to top condition, medium armor to 75% and heavy armor to 50%, Point 5 - Repair all armors to top condition. Handles various crafting requirements and modding reqs for Guns category of weapons. Thresholds for various skilluses outside of inventoryitems.

Medical:
ooooo
Cost: 5, 10, 15, 20, 25
Effect: 0 points - you can use stimpaks but they only heal 50% of their potential, and after 5 in a row, you suffer double the overdoespenalty. Point 1 - Ability to heal 30 HP manually when no hostiles are around, and with a cooldown time for use. Intoxication meter allows for 5 stimpaks in a row without overdosing. Point 2 - Manual healing cooldown time decreased for 25%. 7 stimpaks without penalties. Point 3 - Can use 1 superstim without a penalty. 30% chance of healing a crippled limb. Point 4 - 10 stims or 2 superstims without penalty. Cooldown time decreased additional 25%. 50% chance of healing a crippled limb. Point 5 - 75% chance at healing a crippled limb. 5 superstims or 15 stims without penalty.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SPECIAL (outline, and not including governed skills and related bonuses):
oooooooooo
S - Carryweight, melee/HtH damage and attackspeed modifiers, lifting and moving heavy objects, weapon STR requirement modifiers, (+ other situational misc tasks)
P - Accuracy, vision distance, identifying consumables and their effects (in conjuction with survival skill), detecting traps, (+ other situational misc tasks)
E - Base HP, HP/level, poison-, radiation-, damage (other) resistances, sprint time, (+ other situational misc tasks)
C - Initial reaction modifiers, companion nerve, soothe (a chance of rendering humanoid enemies nonhostile for a moment -- situational) (+ other situational misc tasks)
I - Skillpoints/level, identifying objects not in the range of perception, (+ other situational misc tasks)
A - Movespeed, actionpoints, weapon handling speed, jump height and distance, (+ other situational misc tasks)
L- Luck is blind :wink:



Another alternative method for skills could be to structure them into skilltrees of sorts, to present general knowledge and specialization:
Spoiler


This can work with both of the afore mentioned progressionstyles, generally.

For the 1-100 system, the skillpoint costrates would work the same as explained in General Gameplay up above - 1-50 1:1, 51-75 2:1, 76-100 3:1. But after the point where the skill reaches 50, it would split (with skill appropriate for such splitting) into 2 or 3 specialization paths. This would be to present the general knowledge (1-50) of a given category and the requirement to specialize in order to excell (51-100) in various ways within the said category, a need for higher focus to master something at the cost of other things. This could also, potentially, address the plea for more skills as well as the demand for higher gameplay variety.

Some of the skills and specializations could - for example, it's not a fleshed out list - be like:

Guns (general knowledge about and handling of conventional firearms from pistols to LMG's, etc) - skillpoints 1 to 50 - cost 1:1;

* Pistol grip (specialization path for conventional firearms held with one hand -- like pistols, and lighter SMG's) - skillpoints 51 to 75 at the cost of 2:1 and from 76 to 100 at the cost of 3:1

* Rifle grip (specialization path for conventional firearms held with two hands -- like larger SMG's, rifles, and assault rifles, and gauss/antitank rifles) - skillpoints handled as above

Alternatively, the Guns specializations could be:

* Precise weapons (specialization for single/semiauto firing regardless of weapon used) - illustrates focused fire and accuracy - skillpoints handled as above

* Imprecise weapons (specialization for burst/full auto firing regardless of weapon used) - illustrates recoilcontrol - skillpoints handled as above.

Energy weapons (general knowledge about handling weapons that use energy as their means to cause harm)

* Plasma (specialisation path for plasmaweapons)

* Laser (specialisation path for laserweapons)

Explosives (all manners of things that go boom)

* Traps (spotting, disarming and arming of higher grade traps, whether explosive or not)

* AOE (area of effect) weapons (rocketlauncers, greneadelaunchers, flamethrowers, grenades, etc)

Close Combat

* Melee (extensions of your fists)

* Hand to hand (your fists and feet)

Speech (general logic and reasoning)

* Persuasion (make people act according to your whims)

* Deception (the art of lying)

Medic (first aid bandaging)

* Doctor (manual healing of greater proportions)

* Pharmacist (the medicineman skill to create uppers, downers, laughers, criers, and healers)

Barter (knowing the value of an item and the ability to make others know it your way -- this skill does not need to split)

Repair (basic tinkering with stuff)

* Craftsman (create high class protective wear and Guns)

* Maintenance (repair and maintain higher class [/i]Guns[/i], armor and other appropriate utilities in the game)

Science (basic scientific knowledge)

* Computers (hacking and reprogramming)

* Electronics (repairing energyweapons and other higher grade electrical devices)

Outdoorsman (basic knowledge of the nature)

* Cooking (cooking for the royal)

* Biology (identifying different plants and animals to make the difference between healthy and unhealthy)

Stealth (the ability to do things without other people noticing)

* Sneak

* Steal

Security (opening stuff without a key)

* Conventional locks (opening stuff with lockpicks)

* Electronic locks (opening stuff with electronic lockpicks)

There's only 12 primary skills ( for now, could be added more if appropriate and not overlapping others), but the specialization paths cover - imo - a lot of that.

The 1-10 skillprogression system - explained earlier in this post - could utilize this for those skills that reach for 10 points, while those that do not, remain as they are.




TL;DR?:

Spoiler


Make the game lean less towards the TES style of gameplay - find a better middleground in between - to create a greater diversity between the two franchises.


Even still TL;DR?:

Spoiler


Learn to read pal....



Things I'd appreciate if omitted or otherwise excluded (read: not implemented to begin with):

- Sandbox map -- the game can still be an open world (like how the first games) and support random exploration with large enough "nodes".
- Main focus on exploration -- this shouldn't be the selling point of the game, it's fine for TES, but Fallout should be set apart from that series in all ways possible.
- Too heavy focus on combat more than other styles of gameplay -- there should be more balance on how to fare with the gameworld, well made and settlement centric nodes would support this in that there'd be less empty space that needs to be filled with random combat.
- Straightforward FPS run'n gun combat - there's nothing more boring in these games than RPG combat hampered by FPS mechanics (and while this works both ways, I do not care about improving the FPS elements at the cost the RPG side).
- And stop wasting time in handplacing every sandbead in the desert. There's absolutely no need what so ever to not use procedurally generated landscapes in a wasteland that is mostly sand, rocks and rubble. Use that time to create as unique and differing focus spots as possible.
- And most importantly... less content from the Big Bag of Cool-on-paper +1 -- think before implementing, does it fit the setting, does it make sense, does it have a real purpose.
- Extraterrestials
- All that The Settlers/Sim(s) stuff like: building a house and playing home, building a city and "defending" it, forming a faction, setting up and managing a shop, farming, playerdriven marriage and romances, and all that useless and distracting fluff which is better suited for other games that use them as a the core point of gameplay.
- No multiplayer of any kind - there is a [censored] ton mp games out there for pepole who want that, there's absolutely no reason what-so-ever to have it in here.
- Excessive strive towards "realism" over statistics based gameplaymechanics and RPG feel.
- Combat music -- seriously, it just gets in the [censored] way.

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Joe Bonney
 
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Post » Sun May 18, 2014 5:34 am

The problem with timed quests is that it creates incentives to avoid possible quest givers and make you wary of exploring the game. You don't risk talking to anyone or exploring your environment until your current objective is complete so as to avoid having quests sprung on you. If quests are going to have a timer, you have incentives to avoid starting the clock and end up saving before you talk to people or visit new places just in case you find yourself saddled with a quest you aren't ready to do yet.

That kind of stuff encourages a ratchet approach to playing the game.

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Charles Mckinna
 
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Post » Sat May 17, 2014 7:30 pm

No, just the line of dialog that triggers the quest (or, the part of the quest that triggers the timer) -- and if it is carefully crafted, with the timelimit not necessarily meaning failure (where this approach is appropriate), it shouldn't be a problem. You should be wary of hasty approaches to exploration, and further tensed into solving the matters you encounter and choose to take as your burden. That's the point. It is up to the player if he or she finds it oppressive that there might be a timer behind the corner and decides to use the save function to avoid it, but if it is well informed by the quest giver and/or the phase in the quest that starts the timer, I really see nothing but gain there. Reactivity and responsibility.

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Aman Bhattal
 
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Post » Sun May 18, 2014 2:04 am

I'd like to see some of the following if at all possible (at the very least on a hardocre level):

1. A better A.I., so that opponents don't just run back and forth when they're shot at; they should shoot from cover.

2. A larger map, more settlements, a longer storyline, and a scenario generator.

3. More options with NPCs, such as the ability to gift them better armor and weaponry, rather than having to reverse pickpocket it on them (thus losing karma).

4. Settlements that can be attacked and overrun by raiders or "good" locals- and then repopulated by the new owners.

5. Have Inon Zur compose the background soundtrack- and provide an option to turn it on only when at a settlement (or some other secure location). if 4 above is not done.

6. Provide an option to turn of the "hidden", "detected", "caution", and "danger" indicators when sneaking.

7. Improved scripting so that ambushes don't always happen at the same time and at the same place from one game to the next. Make the simulation much less predictable if at all possible.

8. Make energy weapons unavailable to the vast majority of wastelanders. Mod the available weaponry and provide weapon repair kits and berets.

I could go on, but I suppose that's more than enough.

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Czar Kahchi
 
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Post » Sat May 17, 2014 5:24 pm

I was disapopinted to hear that suvivor 2299 was a hoax, I want the plot to be a political oppression story from a corrupt government but I dont want the quests to be boring search and retrieve crap NV had. I want more divide and conquer take over; type theme. There should be more involvement with factions morale where you could be how you treat them with deploying or saving people. Even possibly fixing trust issues among the your own army. With names such as the U.S. Army/ gaurdians/ etc. Depending on what name you choose will also cause certain people to join your ranks. U.S Army gain the good factions while the demons gain you the bad factions like the raiders.

I really don't want the next game to be another case of the player character becoming the single biggest force that easily change the order of existence wherever he or she roams, but I would like to see a better story. I'd like it if my character would really struggle to get by in a society made poorer by nuclear degradation, and be all-but ignored for a long while. hardcoe mode was a nice step towards this, but I want more. I want the next Fallout to be a game where no individual is enough to wipe out a whole organization and conquer a place himself or herself. I think they should add things from the older fallout games. Like in Fallout 1&2 every perk had pros and cons so you had to think harder on what to choose. Also in Fallout Tactics you could level up the individual stats of each of your followers and even choose perks for them which made the game a lot more strategic.

I also want to see more professions backgrounds and family buisness to join like the Van Grafs. To create occupation based quests given to you by factions you join. It could be implemented to introduce your character by giving him a background or upbrining. For anyone who has played Mount & Blade, when you start a character, you get to choose his family background, where he grew up, and how they made a living. This gave you a small bonus to a few related skills and attributes and could give you an extra item or two. It would also give people a general idea about who you are and what Three-Dog can broadcast about. Then they should also seperate Karma from Reputation. Karma should be related to yourself and relationships with party followers, spouces and children where as Faction reputation should affect yourself in some way in whatever attributes affect how you interact with common people or spouces and Reputation should affect who you are seen as in notoriety to society and what factions trust or want to kill you.

Party combat commands should be interchangable either via pip-boy for the group or individually through speech boxes. Its incredibly annoying seeing them run off and die off the bat,

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john palmer
 
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Post » Sat May 17, 2014 8:24 pm

We'll everyone seems to have gotten the mechanics suggestion down so I'll try locations, one idea I always wondered was where they produced all those energy weapons maybe a manufacturer town or city something like the Pitt with new Reno and some massive egos cause I at least get a little god complex with energy weapons.
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darnell waddington
 
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Post » Sat May 17, 2014 6:14 pm

Whoops wrong thread sorry still new here
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Chantelle Walker
 
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Post » Sun May 18, 2014 5:50 am


No, it didn't. Each perk was a boon with no drawbacks, that's the entire point of a perk.


That's because FOT was a tactical combat game, not an RPG. You don't have followers in FOT, you have squad members under your direct control. Giving the player direct control of followers in Fallout RPGs is against the core gameplay.


Yes to some choice of background, no to classes. Fallout was, from its inception, a fundamentally classless system. Introducing classes is kicking the entire SPECIAL system down a few notches in terms of complexity. As for the 1950s references, New Vegas had plenty of 1950s elements. Read up on Las Vegas of the 1950s, the Rat Pack, and so on.
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Lynette Wilson
 
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Post » Sun May 18, 2014 12:41 am

Yes, you're thinking of traits.

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Sabrina Steige
 
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Post » Sat May 17, 2014 9:05 pm

I can agree with that... but I can't say that I did not want the game to have supported commands to military NPCs; as opposed to scavs and mercs that happened to join you, but are inherently loose cannons. It's interesting that in Wasteland 2, you control the characters, but at times of stress, some can go rogue and act on their own.

Class IS background. In the fantasy setting, education is guarded, and you don't learn blacksmithing at the pub, you are accepted as an obligated apprentice... The class indicates your characters teenage and young advlt life prior to beginning the adventure. It reflects either their aspirations or simply their arranged lot in life up to that point... It means not just that the Oliver Twist's of the world never had access to training in halberd use and wearing full plate mail armor, but they likely have a personal predisposition against it. What thief would not deride the notion of prowling around in chainmail? What mage wouldn't scoff at donning a dead cow for protection instead of easy enchantments.

*And of course all rationalized fiction in reality draqes the game mechanics... Why should anyone pick a fighter who can use a sharpened stick, over a magician that uses flaming bombs from his fingertips... Why play a master thief at all if the fighter can learn it all on the job. Knowledge was mysterious and kept secret; IE. the tricks of the trades. That's what classes are. In a sci-fi setting it's the same thing, but it's training programs; related skills and time spent learning the job; university characters muck up the balance in games like these, unless the talent is spread thin and they not only start with low proficiency, but develop slower.

You forget: Fallout had limited classes by way of the Tag skills; those specific skills started out higher and advanced faster. They reflect the characters best aptitudes and early interests... and likely their job in the vault. All other skills come to them at greater expense than their primary talents.
Even D&D has the concept now of cross-class skills, and it wouldn't be the first thing WoTC copied straight from Fallout.
Spoiler
3rd ed. D&D Feats are based on Fallout's perk concept; and of course, Bethesda then used them in Oblivion, and later when they owned the IP, in Fallout 3.
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Oyuki Manson Lavey
 
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Post » Sat May 17, 2014 4:50 pm


Only recruitable NPCs to my knowledge. Commands to your party would be welcome, tactical games really benefit from it, even rudimentary systems like in Spec Ops The Line.


No, it really isn't. A class in RPGs was, in D&D, an archetype the character developed according to and which constricted development of characters to a much narrower path. Even in TES, the class was a way for defining the character's future development, as while grinding allows to become a jack of all trades, class made it easier to specialize.

Fallout was always a classless system, where the character's strengths were expressed purely by skills, stats, and perks. You can create a class for yourself, but you were never constricted by your choice. What you mention (thieves scoffing at metal armor, mages loathing regular armor) is one of the more ridiculous aspects of classic class systems, as they artificially limit your options, without any reason. A classless systems allows for mixing and matching, such as a thief whose combat revolves around heavy armor and durable weapons, who uses his talents to fight using dirty, brutal tactics, or a mage who prefers leather armor for its convenience and predictable behavior as opposed to enchantments, and uses thief-like tactics in combat. Those are simple examples, but I encourage you to read the underlying principles of Pillars of Eternity.

I'm not sure why forcing particular character molds on the players is an universally good solutions. It works for party-based systems, but it doesn't quite cut it for games built around a single player character.


Those weren't classes, not by a long shot. They represented the character's strength, but choosing a tag skill never prevented you from developing other skills or using certain equipment.
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Anthony Diaz
 
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Post » Sat May 17, 2014 3:17 pm

Found this.

https://twitter.com/DCDeacon/status/433592079324045312

Any idea what it means?

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Arrogant SId
 
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Post » Sat May 17, 2014 10:00 pm

Tag... You disagreed, then rephrased my post and said it back to me as the proof.

Of course they were classes; "They represented the character's strength," ~that's what a class is. That's why you hire an auto mechanic instead of a musician to tune up your car.

Obviously they didn't prevent the development of other skills (I played the game too :wink: ), but as I said, those skills come at a greater cost. Look at D&D 3, the mage can learn non mage skills, but they cost more.

*limited classes I said.

____________________________________________

This brings an interesting thought to me: What if Fallout included Perks as branched paths to specialized skills?
(Like Power Armor Repair. Where the PC without the skill must pay tinkers to do it, but it they had the skill (and the tools!), they could do it.)
**FO2 did give special skill perks ~of a sort. In essence, I think that is effectively reverse prestige classes from D&D. (Could still be interesting though.)

That could be Pete's way of saying, "we're gonna kick you the gut".

Spoiler
No, of course not. :angel:
It means, "Once more into the breach".
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Emily Martell
 
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Post » Sat May 17, 2014 6:10 pm


YOUR POST CONFUSE TAGZ

TAGZ NO LIKE CONFUSION

Seriously though, I don't like classes in its early D&D iterations, especially in the context of Fallout. Let the player define their class through the tags, stats, and perks they choose. Make the class organic, not artificial.


Or saying that the E3 is a harrowing experience for PR specialists like Hines.
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mimi_lys
 
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Post » Sun May 18, 2014 5:52 am

Hm. i don't really know what to believe. Im hoping he is hinting at a possible announcement. but as Tagz said it could be a harrowing experience. who knows.

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JR Cash
 
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Post » Sun May 18, 2014 3:49 am

Artificial isn't evil (except with sweeteners). You were right when you mentioned archetypes, that's what they are; the essential stereotyped example of the trade; and that's certainly deliberate.

I prefer the more mechanical system to the organic/freeform one. I like the D&D methods (though I don't much care for D&D). Fallout was not a rigid class-centric RPG, but it could have been, because of the way they built it; (I'm not suggesting that it should have been; just that all the paths are there for different classed PCs to each have one that suits their abilities).

For less confusion: Class in games (for me) directly equates to Chessmen, and my view on classes parallels my hesitant irritation at the thought of Knightpawns and BishRooks, and RookKnights... which are the fighter/mage/thief characters on a chessboard... and not a good addition IMO.

It does if the game does not rely on the other styles for the main quest. What's wrong with making a Conan character who works with a mage, but isn't one? ~or is actually phobic of spellcraft. Or what's wrong with making a Galen character, a mage who works with some fighters (to go hunt down a dragon), but isn't a fighter himself. Honestly... I can't think of a mage character in fiction besides Peter Jackson's looney interpretation of Gandalf; who would charge into the fray with a club. That's not really in character for a mage. (Yes I know Gandalf carried a sword in the book; he wasn't dumb.. but he also didn't cast many spells; and most of those came from his ring). One can assume that given no option, a mage would grab a stick like anyone else, but I think it absurd to assume the mage would regimentally train themselves with a stick instead of studying spell craft.

*And if they did, then their spell craft would suffer; you can't study both at the same time. (This is reflected in the cost of cross class skills; if a game even allows it.)

One reads all these posts (HERE!) about playing under restrictions; "No Stimpack!", "My guy can't use energy weapons!", "My Argonian only uses stealth and Daggers; no magic, only potions"... and try once to suggest that that is basically class restriction, and they act like you slapped them. :shrug:
They do it [presumably] because it makes it more of a challenge, and more interesting. What a concept.
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Irmacuba
 
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Post » Sat May 17, 2014 4:11 pm

I was referring to the lack of actual 50's hair styles beyond 1 or 2 identifiably, and culture still vaguely portrayed.

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Richus Dude
 
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Post » Sat May 17, 2014 6:12 pm

If you look at any Fallout title before FO3, you'll find that that was not important or even implied. There were no 50's greasers, and people spouting 50's cant; calling people 'daddy-o', and 'croaker'... The 50's was pre-war America... everything 50's in Fallout 1 & 2 was junk from before the war. :shrug:

Look at http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/fallout.gamepedia.com/thumb/e/e6/FO01_NPC_Nicole_G.png/800px-FO01_NPC_Nicole_G.png from Fallout 1. She has a green mowhawk and an eyebrow piercing; http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/fallout.gamepedia.com/thumb/6/6d/FO01_NPC_Vree_G.png/800px-FO01_NPC_Vree_G.png is Bald, except for the ponytail, and she has two earings on one ear.

There is no Mrs. Cleaver type in Fallout 1 or 2. There could have been, had they wanted... but in the first two games, they did not.

Spoiler
*Ergo: this is not something I'd want to see in a future fallout.

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Bones47
 
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Post » Sat May 17, 2014 5:54 pm


Roleplaying games aren't chess, while characters aren't chess pieces. A rigidly structured class system works for games that want rigidly structured gameplay, like strategy games. It doesn't quite work in roleplaying games, where flexibility is key.

In general, thinking of RPG gameplay from a chess player's perspective is counterintuitive, as while giving chess pieces additional movement options breaks the game, intermediate classes that aren't rigidly limited to a certain battle role don't break the gameplay, but give the player more options.


Gandalf is a poor example, as he's a demigod, and a very powerful one at that. Jackson's interpretation stuck me as close to the spirit of the book. Sorry, you don't face Balrog and survive with a frail old body that D&D would dictate.

I'm not sure why new fiction should conform to cliches and tropes of the old. Pillars of Eternity builds its classes around the concept of freedom in development, so while you pick a class, you can build it in many more ways than "Wizards must be frail, incapable of wearing armor, and staying in the back, fighters must fight on the frontlines, and so on."

Furthermore, if you want a particular archetype, you can easily create them under a classless system. This system should promote specialization so that the player will create characters that specialize, but without forcing them to adopt a particular archetype and follow a particular playstyle. A frontline combat mage who's competent in melee and operates an impressive array of short-range spells is a viable build in a classless system, but in class-based systems mages of this type are largely impossible.


Why? With enough study and effort you can master multiple skills, that's what multiclassing is for.


And why should it be implemented as an artificial limitation, when players can easily implement that on their own?


I'm not sure what your point is. Fallout is not 1950s IN THE FUTURE, but a game inspired by 1950s sci-fi. That's a big difference.
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Ben sutton
 
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Post » Sat May 17, 2014 9:33 pm

Ok I want F4 to be the 50s in the future then. If it's going to be in Chicago, I want it to be a 1940s fallout with a post-apocalyptic fallout with a mafia-like faction. I damn sure don't want a 60s Fallout with hippie music in it.

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JR Cash
 
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Post » Sat May 17, 2014 6:02 pm

Of course they are. The point in the Fallout series has always been like 'the ship in the bottle'; you peer into that world, and you're limited PC is your only tool of influence. You cannot achieve what they cannot do, and the challenge is affecting the world though your tiny window into it ~like building a ship in a bottle.

Building the ship is trivial; it is the bottle [character limitations] that make it a challenge; and satisfying to achieve it despite the restrictions. ALL PCs should be flawed, and have defined limits... No PC should be able to excel at every option the game has; it should always come at a cost and a choice; and the game should never be servile about it. :shrug:

This is a peeve I have with FO3, and perks, and Special point advancement at every level; it doesn't matter what you choose, because it's all mutable, with zero commitments. Not even in choice of actions... You can shoot the BoS paladin at the citadel in front od witnesses, and return later to join their ranks; nothing matters in the recent games ~except never saying 'no' to the player. :sadvaultboy:

Spoiler
Ergo: This is something I'd not like to see in a future Fallout title.


He is the perfect example of a fighter/mage; and people recognize the name... unlike if I'd said 'Galen' instead... and expected more than 2% to know the name of the wizard in Dragonslayer. :shrug:

Game balance and the real sticking point is a near total loss of the suspension of disbelief; even when you want to believe it.
This guy : http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/Gizmojunk/conan_zpsd2e8d54f.jpg : doesn't have enough time in the day to train for combat; stealth; body maintenance ~~and spend decades on spell craft study.
*BTW that's also implied by a class... A wizard is assumed to have spent their life studying spell craft do be able to even do cantrips.

Jack-of-all-trades... You cannot master everything by studying it all, and every minute you study something new, you are not furthering yourself an the other subjects.
A mage/fighter is someone who is not a master of either. In the earlier D&D those multiclass characters are not human, and have multi-century lifespans. In Torment, Nameless was a 25th level everything because his could never stay dead.

In a game; in a game... The character should be a game piece with limitations on what it can do; it's the same reason the rest of the rules exist... otherwise it degenerates into 'but I want to!' or 'Lets just say he does!'... This makes the whole thing pointless ~unless~ the point is to run around being superman. :meh:

When you start Wasteland 2, they give you enough stat point to be the lower side of average, and to be above average at anything comes at a severe cost; and is supposed to change the way the game treats the PC. What you seem to endorse is digital larping with a -let's pretend- virtual costume... A flight sim for joggers. [IMO] the lack of limits is the downfall of RPGs, and they are replaced with servile sandbox apps that do the exact same job as a real sand box. :sadvaultboy:
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Roisan Sweeney
 
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Post » Sun May 18, 2014 4:44 am

I look forward to trying Wasteland 2 when it's finished. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, though, but Wasteland 2 is a party based game isn't it? I would expect more limitations on any given character in a party based game than I would in a single character game.

The player needs to have all the tools at his disposal that is required to overcome the game's various obstacles. In a party based game that can mean a proper blend of specialists coordinating their efforts to achieve more than any one of them could alone. But in a game that features a lone protagonist, that protagonist has to have access to the tools needed himself. Whether this comes in the form of him having access to a wider variety of abilities or every obstacle having multiple ways to overcome it (the lock can be picked with lockpicking, broken with strength, melted with acid via science, or bored open with a speech check) is open to debate, but a player shouldn't have to play through a game six times to explore all the content.

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Yama Pi
 
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Post » Sat May 17, 2014 6:22 pm


And yet other games managed to encourage players to create classes for themselves and stick to them. The problem is not the lack of classes, but the lack of balancing. There's too much experience points and far too many opportunities to increase all statistics in the recent games. By restricting the supply or changing level requirements, balance could be much better. IF you could only max out three or four skills and SPECIAL stats remained generally immutable throughout the game, you would see the effects.

Already the changes to the perk system were a step in the right direction, forcing players to consider their choices, unlike Fallout 3, where perk selection was largely irrelevant, as most of them were crappy skill boosts. Compare that to the original Fallout, where you could only select seven perks and no skill or stat could be maxed out. That was a good approach, something I advocate.


He isn't, because he is a demigod. If you want a good example of a fighter/mage, I recommend the Witcher books. Vilgefortz is a fighter/mage and he's awesome.


See, now you're being ridiculous. You're referring to genre cliches as if they were the pinnacle of good design. While these solutions may work for particular franchises, arguing that they should be implemented in Fallout ignores the fundamental classless system of the game, not to mention that the argument in support of them relies entirely on claims that it's a trope, so it should be like that.

It also ignores reality, where multiclass characters exist. They're numerous, as exceptional men, but I'll point out just Winston Churchill, who was a soldier, a military commander, a writer, painter, public orator, capable politician, prime minister of Britain, and more. All within the span of one lifetime, for a normal human.


Gizmo, you know me better than that. I'm not advocating play-pretend, but organic roleplaying. You're arguing that the player should be handed a wooden block roughly hewn in the shape of a chess piece (a class) and then finish it up (develop the character). I'm arguing that, for Fallout, the player should be handed a simple wooden block and given the tools to shape it into whatever they want. The caveat is that the limitations develop through the development of the character. Each skill point, each boon, each perk spent creates new limitations for the character, not as a result of arbitrarily imposed restrictions, but the player's own decisions.
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Amy Siebenhaar
 
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