I agree, complexity doesn't equal good design by default. Complexity for its own sake makes the game 'spreadsheety' as Howard put it. That doesn't mean that complexity and different layers of immersion are inherently bad on the other hand (I know you didn't say that, but sometimes you have to fill space with important messages).

My idea of good game design is a game that stands as itself. The approach of having every player 'do what they want to do' (in terms of outside factors) creates unneccessary complexity imo. You have to mind every kind of player out there in such a scenario, which leads to many optional ways of accessing the game as a game. In an extreme case, this could lead to many different games inside one. It's much easier to not bother with that, especially since most players play to have fun and a good time. They won't care if the game has but one difficulty level for example (bold statement, I know, but most players I know would agree). Choices should come inside the game, not outside.

It's a difficult one. On the one hand I really like the way TES games don't impose arbitrary restrictions on you that can be found in most other RPGs ('Only a rogue shall be able to pick locks', 'Even a high level wizard shall fall over and die in melee combat as soon as anyone sneezes on them'). It's nice to be able to play, for example a shield-wielding mage or a warrior with a good knowledge of summoning. I usually play classic mages but I've played all-rounder characters before and enjoyed it.

On the other hand, the choice of skills or perks you pick should make a difference because if levelling up doesn't make any difference it's not fun. I guess the trick is to offer you all choices but make every choice important, so that a character of one build plays very different from a character of a completely different build.

Which brings me to Fallout games. In either FO3 or FONV I've played more or less the same build every single time - level guns, sneak and speech mainly with science and lockpick (and in FO3 repair) as secondary skills, with energy weapons later. Levelling anything else felt very suboptimal. As a combat skill, guns seems vastly more useful then alternatives. Could there be ways to diversify guns-based builds? Maybe a skill that focuses on assault rifles for a stormtrooper type build, or sniper rifles, or silenced weapons etc. Or was I simply too conservative in my levelling choices ?

I believe weapon skills should be divided into pistols, SMGs, shotguns, rifles, and heavy weapons.

A pistol is a pistol, no matter if it shoots lead, laser, or plasma, it's stupid that you can somehow be proficient with one type of pistol(guns), but not another(energy weapons) despite the fact they would both be held and field in the same way.

A sword is a sword no matter what material its made out of, you dont see TES making Dwemer, Ebony, or Daedric material swords their own weapons just because they are made of a magical material.

I can't comment on how TES handles skills or what restrictions it has applied considering I've only played Oblivion and Skyrim (to any real extent) but I feel the special system accommodates mixing and matching or a jack of all trades character and doesn't need to be changed to achieve that style of play

1 There would be a difference recoil, rounds per second and even reloading in certain guns.It could take someone quite a while to load a 357 revolver if they were used to guns with a clip or the reloading mechanism of something like a 44 magnum,This is before we get to the difference in accuracy and range etc.

It's like saying all sports cars handle the same which isn't the case when you can have a lotus elise or something like a ford gt.This is equally fallacious within the context of fallout, does a ranger sequia (however that is spelled) and 9mm pistol handle the same? Would a desert eagle handle the same as 9mm pistol?

The answer is obviously no and these guns would require a different skill set/experience in real life.

The skill system would have to be fragmented into a superfluity of skills if we are going off the logic of transferable skills between one gun and another, when in all actuality there would logically be a learning curve required in real life and nuanced understanding of each guns quirks etc.

I know this was touched upon in previous threads but I would actually like to see this expanded a bit.

Repair. Not just a blanket repair skill. I think it should be split into three parts.

1. Weapons: In this category you can increase your skills at maintaining and repairing weapons. The more you repair, the higher your skill gets and the better your repairs get. Skill books would help increase this skill as well. As you get better you find ways to modify your weapons, improve them and make them more deadly. Like being able to fasten a grenade launcher to a rifle for example.
2. Armor/clothing: In this category you can become better at mending and perhaps even creating your own armor and clothing from other armors or materials you find in the wastelands or what not. Depending on what you use to mend or make these armors they have a stronger armor rating.
3. Vehicles: Optional if we get vehicles. But in this category your skills will increase as you learn automotive mechanics. This way you start out maybe only knowing small engine mechanics but with the right training and dedication you could perhaps end up getting a form of air craft up and flying.

The reason I'd like to see the Repair skill split up a bit is I don't see how they should realistically be connected. You don't go to a gunsmith to repair your car. Just like you don't drop your armor off for repairs at your automotive repair shop.

I think weapon repair could also be expanded a bit more to separate guns with firing pins from guns that don't. This would require maybe science to repair a laser rifle.

If Skyrim is anything to go by, you can kiss the repair skill goodbye. Personally, I feel that instead of removing features that don't work as intended, ought to be fixed instead of having an axe taken to them.

Armor and clothing: I certainly would be all for having the ability to modify them to suit our needs, and make them more unique than the unmodified versions of the same armor...not just modified by stats alone, but visually as well.

Vehicles: Got no desire for them in Fallout, I'm perfectly happy walking to and from my destinations, but having them in game certainly wouldn't be a deal breaker either.

I don't know if my desires for a vehicle are different from other people. I don't want some sort of Grand Theft Fallout game. I don't want vehicles all over the place. But I'd like to be able to harvest stuff from vehicles. Like pull the motor out of that old army truck and use it as a generator to supply power or something to a dwelling. Or pump water. I don't want to be driving around all over but I wouldn't mind having a mad max like armored car covered in spikes and skulls lol. or a motorcycle. But I don't want it to be a common sight. I want to be able to cross the street without needing to look both ways. But maybe finding a downed vertibird and repairing it would be cool. even if you could only use it as some sort of fast travel system to get to places you couldn't walk to.

If we don't get something to ride, then give us a run function lol.

You cant fix something that is fundamentally broken like repair is.

Now that is something to think about. Instead of, or in addition to, maybe have vehicles used as something other that a really cool explosion. Might be cool to be able to salvage parts from them to make other things...like perhaps an improvised weapon, or as you say, a generator to power the local townsfolk houses and businesses , or even have the possibility of scavenging items from them.

Currently vehicles have absolutely no use other than occupying space, so giving them some sort of purpose for being there could add some much needed depth to Beth's games.

I'm using a rideable motorcycle mod in Fallout 3 and I love it. I never fast travel, so having a vehicle is an immersive way for me to get around a bit faster. You have to build and repair the vehicles so it's not a "giveaway." I usually am not able to use them until I've gained a few levels. And when I can't repair them I still end up on foot quite often.

I like the idea of scavenging parts off of the vehicles you find doting the landscape to make improvements to your gear, housing, etc.
I also kinda think it'd be neat to be able to say, pick a location you like and basically set up shop. Start with a simple dwelling which you put together by scavenging parts from around the wasteland. Over time, you can expand the house, add additional buildings, etc. All stuff that slowly gets built up over time as you collect materials. Basically making a town which NPC's could then inhabit, would be the victim of occasional raids (or something of the like), etc. I mean, it wouldn't have to be a town, but even just being able to pick a nice spot to set up a home which I could expand on a bit and really customize would be pretty cool.

Off-hand - a bullet doesn't fire in a perfectly straight line every time regardless of distance, wind, etc. While a laser does.

If I'm an expert with ballistic weapons (pistols, say) then I'm automatically adjusting for these variables - if a target is far away I'm aiming a little higher to compensate and so on. Whereas if I'm firing a laser-based weapon there's no recoil (or different recoil at least, depending) and it's going to fire out in a straight line in a continuous beam. There may even be other factors to take into account (I don't know - power levels, frequency, etc, since we're talking about a fictional weapon at this stage.)

Personally, I actually like the skill disbursemant from New Vegas. It felt a lot more intuitive to me, and seemed to balance out a lot nicer.

These are not matters that go beyond fixing. You can always do something to improve them, sometimes you need to backtrack a bit with the functionality to take a turn left where you previously went right, but this what fixing is.

But then, fixing is not something to be expected so...

Item decay and repair skills are beyond fixing, that is an objective fact.

It's impossible for developers to test every single possible situation in which an item could be used, thus, it's impossible to set a perfect decay rate for that item to ensure it doesn't decay too fast, or too slow, to the point it becomes either OP, or useless, thus, item decay rates will always be too fast or too slow, to some degree, and thus, they will always be imbalanced and broken. That is not any sort of opinion, that is demonstrable fact, see literally ANY game with item decay of any kind for proof.

Item decay is, by its very nature, flawed and broken, it cannot be fixed unless you do something like run the entire game through a supercomputer for months, so it can test every single possible item use scenario to determine the correct decay rate, and that isn't a viable solution financially for any company.

Putting a band aid on something, by "turning left where you went right before", doesn't fix it, it just means you put a band aid on it to try to cover up the fact its broken, in some silly attempt to hold onto something that is broken because you are used to it and don't want to give it up.

Unless ofc the focusing glass is in any way, shape or form, imperfect, which, after 200+ years of sitting without maintenance, it would be. Which is why lasers are not 100% accurate in-game already.

Exactly, if you are an expert with a type of weapon you know to adjust for the various varibles they come with, including things like lack of recoil, or bullet drop.

But threre doesn't need to be an "absolute right way", just a way that serves the intended gameplay experience the best it can for what ever that means to a given game. You can do things badly as has been done, but you can also do things well.

Part of the flaw in the current system is that it is indifferent and eased up to the point of insignificance. You don't have condition states that would actually mean something with piled effects, but instead you have gradual minuscule effects that don't really build up to do anything that counts. There's no hardship to bear with low condition with the sifted effects, and repairing is as easy as it can get. It is a [censored] system as it is, but by no means beyond fixing.

Of course if one is fundamentally against such systems, they will feel like [censored] no matter how they are done.

But I don't think you need to worry abou that. In all likelyhood there will be no repairing items in the next Fallout.

There does, or else you are just hamfisting a broken mechanic into the game for the sake of having more mechanics.

Because doing no damage, having no armor rating, having to sit through frequent jamming animations, and eventually being unable to use the item entirely, is nothing and insignificant? Adding even more imbalanced conditionals on top of an already imbalanced system doesn't fix it, it just makes it more broken.

I dont understand how the repair system is broken. Infact, I make the jams happen both a lot more often and on firing with my setups for both games. In the wasteland there would be a whole bunch of ways that your rifle could fail you, and treating it right so it can carry you through the trials of the wastes is a great gameplay mechanic. Id love for it to be expanded on, with a chance of more serious failures that may require a workbench to fix, aswell as certian characteristics given to each weapon. That Marksman Carbine may be pretty unreliable, but it performs exceedingly well if you can keep it in good repair with the hard-to-find parts and frequent cleaning. A AK is dumb and tough, and will spit bullets at anything forever, but won't have all that much accuracy to it. Your R91 might be the most common rifle in the wastes, and have loads of spare rifles to junk for parts, but be a jack of all trades.

No there doesn't, because there is no such thing as an "absolute right way". It goes case by case, what is considered worthwhile for something might not fit at all for another. If such systems are wanted out, if it is considered that their existense is unwanted in general, then they go, but that doesn't mean that they couldn't have been fixed as systems or that they are inherently broken as systems. There is a thing called feature creep that is to be avoided, but these games are hardly flowing with "extra systems" to be considered by the player; and even a feature creep is to be considered case by case instead of by a default rule.

All these systems can be considered broken one way or the other if you look at them from a right angle. This is especially true with the weapon skills. Should those go too (I bet they should, 'cause https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIEqcRtVVpk)? Or maybe they can be fixed to better serve as systems for what ever the intent is for the next experience.

I tend to be skeptical of claims of "objective facts" when we're making value judgements about videogame RPG systems, personally. We're talking about a very subjective matter, here, by it's very nature. I just don't think there's ever going to be any Platonic Ideal to be found in these systems, anyway - to call something objectively imperfect is to imply the potential for a perfect implementation of the system - which just feels to nebulous of a term, personally.

I think item decay of some sort makes sense in a post-apocalyptic videogame with a strong gameplay focus (ostensibly) on scavenging materials and looting from anything you can find. I've found Bethesda's vision of the franchise to be at it's most compelling when I limp into an abandoned house after beating a raider to death with a knife I pulled from his friend's body after my gun jammed, drink some irradiated water from a toilet cistern, and rest up in an old bed after I toss the skeletons on the floor.

Repair would seem to be an invaluable skill to have in this sort of world - where everything is broken, the people who can actually fix things would be in high demand I would think.

That said, I do find the current item degradation to me more tedious than compelling usually. There's currently very little feedback in terms of an item's condition - I often don't know I'm nearing a low level in an item until it breaks anyway - for any other effects that may or may not take place until then there's really very little feedback given to me as a player to pay it any mind.

I can't really propose a better system - I just think there's got to be a way to make the concept less tedious to deal with. Probably start with redesigning the whole thing from the ground up, starting with the sort of gameplay behaviors you want to actually encourage with the system.

Megaton was built from salvaged planes. So yeah I think being able to build something from stuff we salvage would be pretty cool. I would like some sort of (but much better) Hearthfire type system Skyrim has but in Fallout.

Vehicles can be salvaged into all sorts of things, Motors for generators, or pumps. heck even to maybe open or close gates and such. From the army trucks you could build small dwellings and what not. Heck you could make dead weight traps out of solid rear end axles or drivelines. And all the fuel cells these vehicles have. Only use they have currently is to explode when you shoot them. but how about sauaging wrecked cars for their fuel cells? use them to power dwellings and such?

I think this could be greatly implemented in the game.

I think I saw a mod like this on Nexus. And I like the idea of it. I'd rather ride up to the tavern in Goodsprings and hope off my bike and go inside for a drink. Then walk past them as they sit there unused.

I think vehicles need to have more use to them then just filling the scenery with wreckage.

I was actually thinking of a more fleshed out version of Hearthfire when I wrote that, so I know exactly what you mean. I remember playing FO3 in Megaton thinking "why can't I just build a town like these people did".

I don't think there's any real need for actual driveable vehicles in Fallout; it would take too much developer time and resources that could be better used elsewhere.

However, they could serve as a fast-travel device, like the carriages in Skyrim. If the vehicle is actually owned by you, then it could also serve as an item storage device.

What I would like is a kind of "Battletruck"; a large, heavily armored (and armed) military style vehicle that would also provide player housing. Selectable destinations would be limited to major settlements and significant roadside locations. It could be something that's discovered in an abandoned base, in need of repair and requiring certain parts to be scavenged just to get it mobile, then other parts, materials and schematics to effect upgrades.

I want cities that make logical and rational sense. In Fallout 1, every city made sense in terms of how the city survives and why it was built where it was. In Fallout 3, Bethesda tried to make each town and city into a gimmick. Canturbury Commons should have been the Hub of the Capital Wasteland; there were bhramin farms, it was in a perfect location, and well frequented by raiders. In game, however, it is barely a shack.

I doubt it would take much time; I did it... (proof of concept; and without access to the source code... and I'm not the only one who did). They on the other hand, could create whatever they wished, and have it be a professional solution. The real trick is probably the NPC ai. They would need to react differently to a PC that was wearing a car... can't run up to the PC and punch them while they are inside a car.