I don't know if there're more, but there's one quest where the scientist asks the player to help him get some GMO seeds to a synth (that replaced a human) to test by planting it in the wasteland. The seeds are supposed to soak up all the rads and still be safe to eat. So yeah, there're pros and cons with the Institute.

But the Railway hippies should all just die. Preferably turned into little chunks of meat with my bloody mess perk. Machines are made to be slaves, not equals.

There may be a few good people there, but The Institute as a whole seems to be an evil entity. Most of the things they've done can't really be justified... their FEV experiments in particular.

The world today inject soldiers with drugs to "enhance" their performance. In Fallout, performance enhancement is achieved through power armour, FEV, and of course, even more drugs. The creation of Super Mutants is an inevitable progression that's fueled by the desire to create a super soldier. Turning a few thousand soldiers, hell, even a few hundred thousand soldiers into Super Mutants to protect millions is a small price to pay. I am not too sure if the "America" in Fallout is the same as the current real life one, but I think it's a small price to pay to loot another country's resources as well.

You are dumbfounded as to why?

Let me be super clear here. It is because your are NOT understanding our perspective!

Evil is BUILT-IN!!! Evil does NOT have to be in dialogue format. The storyline is so flexible that you can kill whoever you want. The storyline is what you created! It does NOT have to give you a way to say evil things even though it does. It ALLOWS you to kill whoever you see fit and steal their stuff. You are stealing their stuff. THAT is the reward of evil. People who are pure evil, KILLS!

Which part dont you get?

---

Evil should NOT be rewarded with a clap or a party. Evil people get rewards from taking people's [censored]. That is reward

I understand your perspective, it's just that your perspective is the denial of an inarguable fact. Why is it that other people are able to clearly see what I am saying and you, among a few others, cannot? The failing here, which I was willing to take squarely on my shoulders, is obviously not on me. So I'm just going to keep repeating it:

The game was either designed for dynamic character-builds and role-play styles, or it wasn't. Anything else, literally anything else, is playing pretend.

Yea, you are delusional in thinking most people clearly see what you are saying as true.

The quest line provides the MOST evil option which is to KILL the NPC. That is the quest line. That option exists. If you want to join the evil faction, you have the option to do so. The quest line, the story, the NPCs are so flexible that you can do evil rather than PRETEND to do evil.

You keep saying questline, storyline, and others 'pretend' to give you evil options.

Well, questline: you can join evil factions. You can kill the minuteman. You can do other stuff that are evil.

Storyline: there is an option for that

NPCs: you can kill them, steal from them. Make friends and kill them.

Incentive: You get their LOOT! You take their stuff. That is the reward of evil!

Which part of it that is 'PRETEND'?

I am not delusional, but you might be delirious if you think I'm saying "Fallout 4 does not allow for an evil character playthrough." If you read every single post I've made in this thread not once have I even hinted at that. What I have said, readily and often, like a DJ spinning the same song all night...

...is that IF a game does not have in-game mechanics which reflect the alignment of the character, then the game is both a shoddily-developed "RPG" and you're playing pretend if you claim your character is one thing or another.

Let's dissect this further though:

1. That is good news and an example of the developers' intent to allow for this playstyle. It is programmed into the game, if indeed done correctly, to have an impact on your play-through.
2. Ok.
3. This is an example of playing pretend. If something has not been scripted into the game to deliver consequences which affect the story and your playthrough, it simply amounts to playing dress-up.
4. But does the game itself react to your sociopathic tendencies or are you able to just run around willy-nilly?

The discussion here isn't 'What actions by your character could be considered evil" but "Does the game cater to this playstyle by giving meaningful dialog options, quest options and story options. Did the developers purposefully develop the game to include this type of role playing to be as equally rewarding as any other alignment?"

And if the answer to that second set of questions is "No" then the rest is in your head.

The answer is CLEARLY yes if you actually played with evil intentions in the game.

There is meaningful dialog options. There is quest options that caters to evil. There is story options that caters to evil.

Are they included? Yes!.

As mentioned, you can go against minute man and other factions that are consider 'good'.

Have you even play the game with evil intentions yet?

Nope. And once again, let me repeat myself: Not once in this thread have I been speaking about Fallout 4 specifically. Rather, I am outlining a general rule regarding RPGs, game development & implemented mechanics.

kellogg is a perfect example of this. And why he chose to be a heartless bastard.

For those that are unaware of what I speak, interact with the memories.

No offense, but if you think it's that simple then you're deluded. Sincerely, a former heartless bastard. No, really, I been there. Even good and evil has it's grey areas. People CAN be evil and sociopathic but evil comes in many forms. And ultimately it's merely a perception that can be considered "good" or "neutral" by others. Majority opinion doesn't mean minority is any more or less right or wrong either. There's only what's right for ourselves. And being a sociopath can actually be a saner approach sometimes, at least in terms of ones own sanity, which can seem more insane from an outsiders point of view. eg: No longer caring and doing bad things because of past good thinks like with Kellogg's family. In this case though he's actually more "sane" evil. Calm and collected. Hardly what I would call a sociopath. I like to think of him as "Evil with a hint of good in him". Self condemned and all that.

Shame we don't get all this with our player characters. Both with good and evil and in-between.

We're not talking about pre-war America, we're talking about the post-war Institute.

You're looking way too deeply into my post.

While there is room for more quest branching, I disagree with the fundamental argument of your post (the title):

In fo4, the game cannot define you as evil. This frees you up to pick your own path without worry of some sort of label.

However, you felt about the games, a major criticism that people had with Fo3 was that the factions were so black and white. It lead to a shallow choice of good = does this, bad = do that. Conversely, FNV had a more grey area between factions (although it still had room to improve) and was praised for it. Lead to a lot of interesting debates on teh forums.

Essentially, Fo4 took the feedback from the previous two games and polished it for this one - and I wouldn't say being evil is missing. Fo4 seems to be more focused on allowing you to define your own sense of morality.

The problem is that the game barely REACTS to you being evil, nor does it really support this playstyle in any meaningful way.

In Fallout New Vegas you had several "gray" factions, but you could also be a drug dealer, a slave trader, or just a psychotic serial killer murdering every single npc in the game (no one was immortal), and the world reacted to that by referencing the fact that you're an evil [censored] bag.

In Fallout 4 these options aren't gone, but they're few and far between, and it doesn't feel like the game supports it nearly as much as previous games.

Also, the title isn't mine. It's the name of the video.

Correction, you can only be a serial killer/cannibal/thief hybrid and be karmically evil in New Vegas. The reason? vanilla makes it impossible to be evil as a slave trader (only once), or a drug dealer. Need mods to fix that.

Let me correct myself then:

You can join a raider gang of drug dealers, do a deal yourself, create numerous new drugs to distribute throughout the Wasteland, and act as support and muscle for your fellow drug dealers / tribal gang.

You can join a barbarian nation of slavers that seek to conquer the Wasteland and create a "utopia" where there is no individual will and the needs of the state outweigh everything else.

My point is that the game gives you more opportunity and gives you more quests that allow your character to express himself in all sorts of moral ways, and I feel this is drastically reduced in Fallout 4.

The video explains it much better than I can.

And even then, you can be a good slaver, or a good drug dealer, because the game gives very little opportunity besides mass-murdering cannibalistic thievery to actually be true evil, and too easily gives out good karma for whatever reason no matter what rare evil acts you do.

I'm talking relatively. Of course the karma system was crap in New Vegas. I wish they had just scrapped it altogether and made seperate "karma" trackers for each faction, but the point remains that compared to Fallout 4, New Vegas gave you more opportunities to be evil, and the world reacted to your deeds more. Not by much, but at the very least npcs would talk about how you're a serial killer, or how they shouldn't trust you. Little kids would be afraid to go near you. Even the non-karma stuff related stuff was more intriguing. Joining the Legion gave you the chance to murder drug dealers, but also required you to be okay with slavery and misogyny.

I guess what I'm saying is, I expect games to improve upon existing systems, not regress. We can argue that, at best, Fallout 4 stayed on par with New Vegas in this regard, and at worst it regressed. Either way, that's not acceptable to me in a sequel.

This ^

What became the Institute made the Super Mutants, so it is very relevant to pre-war America.

After that, the Mutant boss that the player killed in FO3 took over and "perfected" the process of turning humans into Super Mutants.

If you want to play a "bad" character: *spoilers*

Get Cait as a companion and head to Good Neighbor. There's multiple characters around there that give out quests that would be frowned upon by the "good" companions.

I'm gonna do this for my next character. The one I'm playing now is a goody-2-shoes.

Wow. So your title is

In Fallout 4 you cannot be evil - a critique

And you are not talking about fallout 4 specifically. If you are not, sure. Then i might be incline to believe you. But dont fault me for your misleading title.

If it is not, then this post is in the wrong section. This post is out of topic.

Um...this isn't my thread.

No they didn't. West Tek is responsible for the FEV and Super Mutants, the CIT had nothing to do with either.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're talking about Fallout 1 here, not Fallout 3. I don't remember anything like that in Fallout 3.

Note: I haven't finished the game.

But from what I have seen, there isn't enough game mechanics to support a evil playthrough. This is not to say you can't roleplay a evil playthough, but rather there isn't enough game mechanics cratering to such a playthrough.

Settlement System - I spend can spend all this time building settlements, but I can't use a mesmerizer to enslave potential settlers. Nor can I sell information to raiders for (reward), so they can sack the settlement. I am largely pigeon holed into being a beckon of hope, if I want to use the existing system. The quest line and dialogue is geared solely for the "good" playthrough. (I just want my own "raider" settlement.)

Questline - From what I have seen here,(note: havent finished game) I'm not exactly given alot of free will on the subject of how the quest plays out.

NPCs - There is to many essentials, its hard to take a kill everyone goal seriously when no one but a few raiders die... (They should have figured I wanted to shoot this guy in the face and adjusted for it.) https://youtu.be/e0E4wviq9Jc?t=420, not that he will die.

In FO3, I was able to:

Dialogue - I just wan't to say some seriously evil crap sometimes, not just be sarcastic.

I'm not saying im not happy with the game, I like it so far, but I just want more to cater to the evil side of my toon.

....He didn't make the thread, buddy.