Which brings us back to buying PR dung. In which case, my sympathy is very limited.

You can't shoot up every innocent bystander, just the ones the game let's you. Making a point? The game is what it is, i don't need to make points.

Uh...did you play FONV?

Looking how he defends FO4 and Beth, i would say no

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Slaver, locking you out of multiple quest, people would refuse to trade with you and it makes the NCR hostile, among other things.

You're kinda grasping at straws here, aren't you? In Fallout 4 you immediately get shot at if you approach Raiders.

As Berret mentions, Fallout 2 offered exactly what Beth should have done with Fallout 4.

You could provide chems for their vault. Could you join them? Also, Obsidian, not Beth.

There is a difference between being part of a group and working for a group. Mercenaries worked for groups but they were never actually members of said group, that's pretty much what the courier was, a mercenary. They were hired into a job to help the factions, they were promised payment, they were never sworn into the groups. It's not straw grasping, it's paying attention.

For instance during the American revolution England hired a bunch of german mercenaries called the Hessians, they weren't part of the british empire but they worked for the british empire because they were promised, in the form of payment, money and land.

We didn't have the option to join the Powder Gangers, we didn't have the option to do the Great Khan beatdown, we didn't swear loyalty and servitude to Caesar we were nothing but mercenaries that worked for those groups.

And again you are shifting the debate. The points in the videos weren't what is really "evil", but the lack of options like in some other games(even previous fallouts). Can you join any criminals? no, any raiders? no, Gunners? no. The closest thing to being evil is the institute but even they are rebuilding society in their own way. I'm not expecting the game to react, but the main factions at least could.

I think he was refering to the powder gangers

Which aren't Raiders in that game.

Keep the discussion to in game activities and events. Leave the real world politics and religion out.

The point I was trying to make is that you could interact with these factions, regardless of how you nitpick at the titles they give you. They were all part of the wasteland factions and played some role, and you as the player could interact with them OR kill them to hepl out another faction. There is none of that in FO4, and no "karma" system, which makes it kinda bland when you just have to kill everything and no one cares what you do.

In your example of the Powder Gangers, you could join them in attacking Goodsprings and gain access to the prison and they'd let you walk around and treat you as a member. Every Raider I've met in FO4 shoots me on sight. There aren't even different gangs, they're all just "Raiders" with identical armor/war paint/logos. Once in a while you find a computer log that indicates some gang wars and rivalry, but that's usually after you've killed everyone involved. It doesn't matter at that point. If I could find out about that rivalry without murdering everyone, for instance, and then play both sides to help one or the other or set them up to destroy each other, THAT would be interesting and make your actions count for something.

And because "Virgil" isn't named "super mutant" he isn't one? If they act like raiders, they are raiders. You are also forgetting the ones in Bison Steve Hotel.

Edit: The ones that took over primm

Again, we were at war.


I said, "simply because we could". You again brought up war, which wouldn't fall into the "simple" situation.


Hmmm.. sounds like you should read my post before responding, which you clearly didn't do


Evil isn't all subjective.


Evil is burning someone alive just for the satisfaction of watching them burn.


Or, more on topic...


Activating the nuke in Megaton simply for the satisfaction.


I rest my case.

^^^ This...Apparently this is asking too much from Beth.

Papa Khan gives the player an open invitation to join

Yeah, there are a lot of factions allowing you to associate with. But there's a reason they're not called Raiders. Raiders still shoot at you on sight. Also, as I may repeat, Obsidian, not Bethesda.

You can't take it. It's an offer but you can't actually say "Yea ok sure sounds cool"

So.... Just like in real life? I mean you can but than nobody would talk to you and a bunch of policemen would shoot you... In both the game and real life.

If you think about it, there is not good or evil in Fallout 4.

• Killing raiders: The only thing we know about raiders is that they are 'bad' people who attack others. We have no clue why they even started down that path.


• Random encounters: these situations are the main reason there is no good or evil in this game. You have no clue what is going on, nor what effect your action will have. Will saving a potential synth let loose a murderer? Will killing them be murder? all of it is bad and good.


• Endgame factions: Not getting into to much spoilers, all the factions have good and evil within them. possibly with the exception of Garvey's crew, which you build up. BoS, RR, and the Institute all have moral quandaries about the 'moral rightness' of their actions in the mind of the player if you think about them.

Raider factions in the game would be awesome which is why I started a Raider Warlord DLC idea thread a week or so ago. Reading the notes and terminals does make them seem really interesting and it would be cool to get caught up in their world helping a raider faction expand their chem business or take out opposing factions. I think there's a ton of DLC potential for this type of thing.

This is actually a pretty good way of thinking about it. It's also worth noting some raider bosses threaten to harm the families of it's members to keep them in order and some raiders join up to protect their families from said raiders, others got into it because they need to pay for drugs because they got hooked on drugs and others because well, starvation and not knowing how to really farm or they're doing it to further help their families by sending caps.

Once again, noone shooting at you for being chummy with the Khans or the Boomers. I don't know about the Powder Gangers, since I never walked that road. But since Raiders shoot everything that moves, you would be hunted by every faction. At least, if they took it seriously. Probably he easiest way out to create other factions instead of trying to implement a Raider courrier.

It is sort of a weird behavioral pattern when you think about it. They seem to be chummy with each other and lead somewhat "normal" lives, mostly as addicts and robbers, however. But then you add in that they murder everyone on sight who is not a Raider and display their bodies on poles, which is arguably somewhat psychotic. So are all Raiders complete psychopaths that just happen to get along with other psychopaths? There isn't really much sense or purpose to the whole Raider thing in FO4, which is another potentially cool element that was just left untouched in favor of MOAR SHOOTING!