I've posted this at Fallout3Zone as well:


I am going to touch here on a VERY sensitive subject here and I will try to be as clear as possible.

At the moment I only know what I feel and see and it is VERY difficult to articulate properly. You will see why.

A few weeks ago I watched 2012. Very cliched and with spectacular FX... a real no-brainer. No problem. What did particularly hit me throughout the movie is the message of the whole racial propaganda if you will. It was the stand-off between the humanitarian scientific minded black man against the white and self centered white [censored] (not the loser father figure). Also, the new birthplace for humanity is in South Africa!!! It was almost sickening how blatantly obvious they tried to show the audience the irony of humanity standing together on the back of the old Dragon - Apartheid. I actually got red faced it was so cheesy!

Now I just recently I started playing Fallout 3. Great game, LOVE IT. Except. Well, it all started with my visit to the lantern and speaking to the [censored]. I've had my suspicions about some parts of the game but she kind of really blew the whistle. People are a bit strange to the ghoul because he is different. What?! WTF - you are not serious. There is no race conflict in the game but they still freaking have to deal with it in some $#&@ way. Why?

A few other spots that I noted:

The white kids at the party seem to be a bunch of bullying [censored]s - except for the one black recruit later as part of a gang. The black kid at the party has a sensitive and reserved personality. The white Overseer is a power mad idiot who needs to be straightend out. Getting to the first town the Mayor is black and the doctor is black. The white guy running the Lantern seem to be (so far) a self-centred [censored].

But now, what about he other NPC's? What about the women at the store? What about the guy working at the water purifier plant? But to me they are neutral characters. Like the black guy with the Snakes gang earlier - it made no difference (I did not pay much attention to him).

The message is there, but it's not... so you can't really justify it. That is just the problem. You can't prove that they are sending out a message. With Novas comment on the ghoul I really flipped. That was the only evidence I needed that the game is trying to say something. And now I am really looking close at this game. Actually I'm enjoying it a lot more because I need to see where this is going.

I have no problem with message, it's just that being reminded of this problem every day (through hints, clues and pure blatant in-your-face propaganda) in every possible way is feels like brain washing. I mean, haven't we all heard enough about how bad the Nazi's were, how many diseases Hitler had, how dysfunctional he was and how ridiculous the Germans are? How many games can you mention where you can play the Germans? Anyway, sorry... off subject.

I don't think anyone else has seen it this way, or have even noticed anything resembling anti-racial/ism propaganda in Fallout 3. So I might be really WAY out of line.

I really apologize for any inconclusive hyper sensitivity from my part...

Has anyone else noted this? Maybe something else? And if so, why?

Thanks for your time!

I'm not really sure what your issue is. Racism is a real-life issue, and it was presented in the game through the ways in which the regular humans treat the "zombified" ghouls... much the same way things would probably play out in real life. They [the racial undertones] were hardly a "secret message" hidden in the game... just another layer to the game's world and atmosphere.

You're a liiiiiiitle too overreactive. Just because two people of different races have differences or disagreements, doesn't mean racism. There's no "hidden message" or "propoganda brainwashing."

Ghouls get treated like crap because they look like freaks and sound like 70 year old chain smokers.

Calm down, geez.

Methinks you are looking for an issue where there isn't one.

i think you should relax and play the game. there is no reason why any one of us should get worked up over racial overtones/undertones, real or not, whether they be intended or not. it is a very touchy subject that not everyone will react to with civility. relax and enjoy the fine world that bethesda has brought to us.

I saw no direct racism in the game amongst the 4 primary races. None. Nadda. You sound upset because certain characters in the game had to be confined to one of the 4 races. Sorry, that's life. And they probably randomly selected it, so you're just mad at a random number generator.

As for the ghouls, they're the most racist in the game of all. They are always calling me humie, smoothskin, or normal. That's just plain rude. I don't say "hi ugly ghoul monster", I just say "hi". They're asking for it. They're full of self loathing and try to convince people that they hate them too. And you know what? It's working.

You missed the key point though. In the vault, after 200 some years of interbreeding, why are there still races at all? They should have all merged into one mixed race. That means the people chose for 200 years to keep breeding with the same race in their very limited population. That's sad.

Eulogy Jones? A slavedriving murderer ish ardly protraying the entire race in a positive light.

A few points:

a) you may be paranoid. Or over-sensitive, as you put it.
B) putting in subtle little things like this, or the mere hinting of child-abuse that have been discussed at length on the forum as well, is an ingenious way to make people debate the game, read into it philosphic, religious and social discourse thus controversy, raise general interest thus sales. Nothing wrong with that, far better than ie. a sixy female painter swimming nvde in the ocean with her paintings to become famous and sell more and at higher prices.
c) it might be an honest attempt at actually raising questions that are important in RL. This have been known to happen in other works of fiction and/or art through the centuries from the camp-fire stories of olden days to todays computer games and whatnot. Suggesting a hypothesis in a piece of fiction is not necessarily the same as making a statement as to the facts of RL conditions, it can be this or it can be regarded as starting points for discussion on subjects brought to the fore within that particular piece of art. Points made in an elegant and non-suggestive way, tend to further the latter.
d) as you find these suggested topics in the game to be pronounced without finesse, though you're not sure you can even prove if there actually IS any or you're just over-sensitive (that's defining finesse and subtlety for you, right there), this ALSO raises debate, to which you've been quick to respond.
e) points B) through d), I think, clearly shows this is not just a regular, dumb computer game, but at least an ATTEMPT at creating a work of art. Whether or not it's a successful attempt, I am sure will be debated thoroughly until the next game comes out (by you who started this tread as well), which hopefully should come out at least equal in all respects quality-wise. Fail better, as Samuel Beckett put it - that is what it's all about.

Peace!

The races in this game are perfectly balanced. I don't see a problem what so ever.

The ghoul is just part of the problem and really, I don't give a [censored] wether they are stereotyped as evil or good guys. It was the dialogue that caught my attention... and everything else with it.

Yes, I might be a little toooo sensitive but it's more about paying attention. I watch movies and play games at least with part of my brain working to grasp the subtle social message that some try to convey. It's actually part of my job.

There is a definate trend in especially the movie industry that is not really well predisposed toward certain racial elements in society. And sometimes they are horribly blatant about it. The fact is that Bethesda is playing mind games here. They can blow our senses in the movie theatres with all the propaganda BS they can muster but keep the [censored] things away from our games.

It soemtimes feels like I'm told what to think.

RazorEdge: thank you for your reply. Yes, a great work of art sometimes needs to address some social issues! And maybe they have leaned too much to one side - or maybe they are following a modern social rulebook.
Also, I know my theory is really just a whispy cloud - a thought. Nothing more. No proof.

Nah, the truth is [censored].



Funny thing about the Ghouls is, if they were supposed to be a polemic about racism, it falls flat on its face, because about 90% of the ghouls really are the psychopathic murderers people say they are, and that's not even including the ferals.

Racism is a part of humanity. Get over it.

Perhaps reading the rules first would help? Thanks.

Racism is more prevalent in F1 and F2 even in tactics. I am speaking of Racism between humans and ghould as well as super mutants. First a ghoul at least in the first fallouts, not only look like zombies they smell like a dead body some with thousands of flies, body parts falling off and organes exposed. It's no wonder people don't want them around. In fallout 1 and 2 ghouls are segregated from people as well as super mutants. yes super mutants. In Fallout 2 there was a doctor trying to kill super mutants with a toxin he even asks you to test it on one. The biggest point I can make is in F1 the enclave president wanted to purify humanity/world by ethnically cleansing the world by sending a modified FEV into the jet stream killing anyone and anything that has mutated in anyway. Tactics may not be cannon but the ghouls in Quincy are also segregated. In an alternative ending the brotherhood hunts down and kills all mutations and any human siding with them. There is also a level taken out called springfield were ghouls are called by the mayor of the town as "second class citizens." anyways in Fallout 3 I see little that can be compared to the other games.

The world has been blown to hell. Do you think that its survivors are going to care about things like racism? No, they just want to survive, and if being racist in someway is going to help them survive, then they'll do it. Even then, I don't see any racism in the game.

Which Overseer are you refering to? Because I think Alphonse Almodovar[Amata's father] is Hispanic. And Allen Mack is Asian, now that might be wrong but that's just what I've seen on wiki and such. If you mean another Overseer, then I have just misunderstood your post and Im sorry.

It is easy to make comparisons between Group X in video-game Y and real-life group Z. But thus far your arguments for Fallout 3 being a racist game seem to be very far-fetched. You are intentionally picking specific characters and anolyzing their personality traits and claiming that Bethesda is inserting these personality traits into characters who are of a specific race. Yet you are ignoring other characters like Eulogy Jones (possibly because you haven't encountered him yet) who are the exact opposite personality-wise (and who also share the same race as the other characters you are anolyzing). Plus, the power-mad Overseer from Vault 101 is meant to be Hispanic, not Caucasian. Essentially, it appears to me that you are reading too much into the game. Take a step back and simply enjoy the post-apocalyptic environment that Bethesda has created.

The ironic thing is, Ghouls AREN'T a race, They are a bunch of people who took in too much Radiation.

/Thread

I agree with the second statement, and I agree with the idea of Hollywood telling me what to think. But I think racism being an issue today is a result of the media. I don't ever think about it until someone brings it up. I played through the whole game without once considering that any race was being mistreated. I played each race in character and never noticed anything.

IRL I worked in a program that brought all sorts of nationality together. We worked together and never thought badly of each other because of race. There were a few matter of fact things that came up, like food preference and language difficulties. Those were the result of being raised speaking another language and eating other foods though, there was never any anger associated with it in either direction. (I knew a girl from China who said they only use soy sauce in her hometown to flavor cat food. Who knew? It didn't make me mad to hear this, I thought it was interesting. I'm curious how well it works.) Maybe I just live in a racially enlightened place, but I propose that racism isn't nearly as big an issue today as the media makes it out to be. And it makes me sad that you might be going through life how you're playing this game: looking for trouble where there isn't any.

Now then, let's get back to gaming. "I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids."

Lucas Simms is a Lawman? Not a negative character like Eulogy. Sounds like to much reading into something that probably isn't there. Star Paladin Cross is most honorable and won't accompany Bad Karma beings or those who commit bad karmic acts. Not negative.

there was to much to read to i did not read it

Keep up, the modern acronym for this is "tl;dr"! That means "too long; didn't read". (I just learned that one a couple weeks ago. I'm so old.)

Because bigotry doesn't evaporate simply because people are trying to eek out a living in a blasted wasteland. While the color of ones skin may not matter much there is a new 'other' to contend with.


There's a ghoul settlement in the game and they're willing to talk about the bigotry they face and the people they don't like either.


He's not recruited later, after Butch sneers at you he goes and sits down with Wally Mack (white) and Paul Hannon (black) to discuss their gang - he was there from the start.


The Overseer's name is Alphonse Almodovar, I'd have to check in the GECK but it's quite possible he's Hispanic, not White.


The leader of the slavers is black, the leader of the Brotherhood of Steel is white, you can find good and bad characters of each race. I wouldn't get too worked up about the situation in one town.

You also seem to be very selective of how you're looking at this, why is the doctor in Megaton not a 'neutral' character, he's not terribly important. He's also hardly the helpful and benevolent type. (The doctor in Rivet City is white by the way, since this seems to matter to you).


If you get further in to the game you'll see that there isn't a subtle message about white people being bad imperialists and the other races being the good subaltern. If you're looking for that message yes you can shoehorn the game in to it . . . but there's plenty of evidence against this.


Sometimes when people try to avoid one sterotype they stumble in to another, or they end up reinforcing the initial stereotype because they've so blatantly tried to avoid it.

For example, take the slavers and the escaped slaves. Both groups are a mix of races but the leaders are both black. If you have the head slaver be white then it's a stereotype, so having him be black sidesteps that. Of course if he's black and the slavers are led by someone white you're reinforcing the stereotype by avoiding it. Going withe hispanic or asian leaders sidesteps this but in a rather blatant manor: rather like the selection of a Japanese judge for OJ Simpson's criminal case. He was specifically chosen because race was going to be an issue but in selecting a 'neutral' party it just made this more apparent.

Of course if you avoid all of this for a second and look at the two characters, Eulogy Jones and Hannibal Hamlin, they're rather fun. I particularly enjoyed Hamlin's historical retelling which was not only interesting but underscored the problems of incomplete historical accounts and oral retellings.




Again, I think this 'message' is at the front of your mind and it's biased what you're observing. The Megaton doctor is a good example, why is he an example of a positive individual when he's largely disinterested in people's problems? Why is the head of the town a positive example when he's both the political leader and the head of security? I wouldn't want to live someplace where the head of police was also the mayor.

If you start to look deeper I think you'll find pretty much everyone has a flaw, even if some aren't as apparent as others. If if you look at the game in its entirety, rather than just two locations, you'll find that there's far more variety than you realize now.

I agree. Wait, does that make us racists?

I'm not sure what the topic starter is exactly trying to say, but if I am correct, he's complaining about the fact that black characters are portrayed more often as "good guys" than the white are. This might be true to some extent, since being politically correct is important when marketing a game (or a movie for that matter). The dev's might have been unconsciously over-careful when profiling the ingame characters, but I see no real anti-white/black propaganda in the game. Actually It's a kind of a shame that we haven't seen too many african-american actors playing the role of a bad guy. But since the topic starter seems to be upset also about the actual anti-racist themes in the game (not just the alledged white-bashing) and about the fact that Hitler is (deservedly, if I may add) considered a total [censored], I would recommend him freeware games like Border Patrol.