Well, I was drawing the human when in a hazardous situation (I'll spare you from the actual drawing and phylosophy - the former, I'd still give when asked).

Basically the drawing came to be a deformed human with short limbs (not accidentally, I can draw well enough to get proportions right) and suddenly I realised that the Falmer wouldn't be anything less than Mer adapted to the hazardous enviroment they were driven into.

Because of the cold they would have shorter ears and noses, more hair (beards), have shorter limbs and have more muscles and fat on their trunk; all to reduce loss of heat and keep the vital organs warm.
Rewind: small, fat and a beard, isn't that the cute dwarf we all know? I'd say so!

Now the questions are:
1) Is there any lore conflicting with this?
2) Is this likely to be true?
3) Would they have had enough time to adapt in such way to the cold? (Either in the time they were still estimated to live or in the hipothetical case some of them still live to this day)



I hope this hasn't been discussed before, but I did the search on this lore forum and couldn't find anything, so I honestly tried and looked for it. (I just hope it isn't in TIL, as then I'd look even more stupid)

Darwinism doesn't necessarily comply with the physiology of Men and Mer. True SCIENCE itself doesn't really comply with some mortals, e.g. if two different races mate, the child will take more after the mother than the father.

On to your questions:

1) The only real lor I know of is that Rieklings (which I'm sure you're referring to) aren't really intelligent (only a few can talk - one you actually see doing so). Tolkien dwarfs, at the risk of simplifying them, are basically and essentially shorter humans; rieklings are much different.

2) As with my Darwinism statement, it's not likely. We don't even know about their religious ideals and whatnot to know what they're creation myth is to really know where they came from.

3) Again, refer to my Darwinism statement.

I don't really think this has been discussed very frequently; I haven't seen a plethora of threads about it in my few months of being on the forum, so you don't have to worry about that.

The Falmer where elves they did have long beards though.
They were called dwarves by a giant and that's how it builded.

Inmagine this: http://www.uesp.net/w/images/Dwarven_Spectre.jpg
but less ghost like.

Thats DWEmer.

And no, the Falmer are not tolkienesque (is that right, by the way?) dwarves. The weapons and armour found in http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Bloodmoon:Jolgeirr_Barrow were sized to the average TES humans and elves.
Oh, and yes, those are ancient falmer weapons and armour, if one believes the legend of the Snow Prince.

I don't see how Darwinism can be directly excluded here. Natural selection (and evoltion as a n extend to that) would still be very plausible in the TES world, which relates strongly to the real world on such matters. Of course, if the Falmer interbred completely with other beings, the results could be very diverse, as you said.

The Rieklings seem - after a short scan through TIL - like an element braught up in Morrowind (I didn't play it, sorry). TIL also suggested that they do have a certain level of intelligence and can speak Cyrodillic. But I wasn't referring to any specific race already worked out in a game, so any similarities with the Rieklings is pure coincidence.
It could of course be that the Falmer are the Rieklings, then my entire problem is solved as then I go from my hypothetical Falmer model to an already worked out element of the game.

Are there any relics (like weapons) of the Falmer?

I also fear I pgrased my question wrong: I didn't mean a exact correspondance to the Tolkienesque dwarves (with behaviour, civilisation etc) as I estimated it very unlikely to have them be the exact same. I rather just meant the small, fat general look of them.

The Falmer and the Rieklings were certainly not the same thing at all. Most likely the whole concept of them being the same thing is just somewarped folklore and petty prejudices from the inbred Skaal community.

edit: And yes, as my edit explained, those are (probably) Falmer armour and weapons.

Oh, well I formulated my theory because I thought you were hinting that the Rieklings very well may be the Falmer.

Even then, if the hazardous environment WOULD make the Falmer look like that, then why don't Nords look like that?

Only the armor and spear found in Jolgeirr Barrow.



The only description of a Falmer in game is in the book http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/bm_snow_prince.shtml Read it and make up your own mind.

http://www.imperial-library.info/tsosk/chapter7-icewarrior.jpg
- http://www.imperial-library.info/tsosk/chapter07.shtml

Unfortunately we know how consistent Bethesda can be with following it's own lore and all races have had various appearances in the different games, so I don't think we can use that as real "evidence".

Also, more to the point of why the Nords aren't built like that:
1) They could be, depending on which building type you take (depending on the TES game, they vary)
2) they actually have some characteristics, like the big, but rather flat nose
3) Since they thrived in Skyrim and got some degree of comfort (warm clothes), they didn't need to adapt to the cold as much as the surpressed Falmer. Picture how the Inuit (eskimos) would have looked if they didn't have the warm clothes to protect them. They'd sure be more beastly than they are now



Well, as I just said, Beth could be doing an inconsistency here, also it's arguable if it are the Falmer here.

__________________


Thanks for the answers so far, all
(and I'd say you are cute, Neroyume, but the thought that you might actually be a sickly butt-scratching bold guy, makes me refrain from that.)

The blue skin is so DnD
However, if the Falmer actually had a blue-ish hue, it would explain why the Skaal think they and the Rieklings are the same.



You're saying Falmer don't have warm clothes? :nope:

you argue natural selection. however, the most evolution the elves (or humans for that matter) went through is a change of skin color. the amount of change you are suggesting is unprecedented, not to mention unsupported by evidence. yes, its cold, but it is much simpler to make clothes and warm dwellings then it is to completely change your anatomy.

Personally I always pictured the Falmer as normal elves with white hair.

the snow prince describes them purely as elves so i doubt the Ice warriors or Rieklings are in anyway related to them.

I believe it was stated they had a blue-ish skin somewhere, although I'd say a simple pale one would be more plausible.
And Falmer would still have farm clothes yes (unless they were really reduced to "beast mode"), but living hidden away from others doesn't really benefit your haut couture, so I'd guess they'd have less effective clothing



Hmm, this posts answers my original question way better than any other so far.

I know the changes are radical, especially in "human" terms. But look at the diversity in animals (polefox, fox and dessert fox - look at the body/ear proportion) and appearently there used to be "giant" and "dwarf" races of human aswell once, but they extinct long long ago because of several reasons, so I don't think I'm asking too much in terms of possibility.
Of course there are two limiting factors as far as I'm concerned:
- time (did they get enough time to go through such a radical change?)
- technology (if they were thriving enough, they'd make warm clothes, as said before, slowing down the adaptation to the climate)
Moderator: Quoted post deleted.

You should consider is the bigger picture. Go read up about the worlds myths a bit more and put them on the timeline, you get away with something no more then 10.000 years and nothing but themes involving degradation from a stronger form.

There are hints that people have stopped being immortal giants and become the mortal man and mer. That's the kind of 'evolution' going on, not the sort of fantasy-darwinism in which an ordinary man becomes something extraordinary through rapid adjustment. Of course the smaller weaker form is better suited to the new world so Darwin is all happy, but it's not the sort of evolution you were thinking about.

Stil that is all besides the point, you made the argument that the Falmer from Shadowkey would be inconsistent. Though there is no reason to assume this is the case. Which makes the whole argument kinda moot.

Moderator: Quoted post deleted.
I think I just said that they didn't have to behave like the Tolkieneque dwarves to be considered as dwarves by me, I didn't exclude they'd have behavioural changes. Unless you're referring to another post of mine
And I honestly didn't think about technology influencing physique, but I'm using the best example of it right now, being my thumb, I guess. However I don't know where that was aimed at, I can only guess it's a reaction on my clothing part. What was wrong with my assumption that having better clothes would slow down the previously mentionned adaptations to the cold? Or did I go wrong somewhere else?
Also please keep that tone down, or else... I'll run away from the computer crying.



10.000 years is a bit short, even for the variety of current TES races, so maybe we could assume that TES evolution goes quicker than in real life. Following that reasoning, the Falmer could have had more extreme mutations, than they would "normally" in a certain period of time.
Personally I also think that the small, fat elf isn't really a bettering (less strength etc etc), so it could fit into your reasoning of everything getting "worser". It'd just be a needed adaptation to survive.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean that they WOULD be inconsistent, I meant that that COULD be the case (basically: as long as Beth doesn't say "This is how they look like", we can only guess and use such evidence only as suggestions of how they could look)


I hope I didn't twist any of your reasonings, as I found you made a very constructive post and I know how annoying it can be when someone twists all your carefully chosen words into something completely irrelevant.

I'm not talking about Tolkeinesque Dwarves. I'm talking that behavioral changes for the benefit of the individual is a form of adapatation. Seriously, you didn't know that natural selection also happens to work for beneficial behavioral changes? Christ, then what the hell have we been doing to dogs these couple thousand years?

Even then, this is how the Snow Elves survived. Being that they're possibly a highly sophisticated race to begin with, they know enough how to survive in the wilds of Skyrim with their technological advancement alone. The Nords not having the benefit of such protections, were vulnerable and have to use their wit to survive. (However, I guess a bunch of their adapatations may have originated from Tsun from heaven.) Considering that they're from Atmora, they sure know how as hell how to live in frigid wastelands better than their counterparts.

Ya, really? Really.

Even then, they've been consistent with the overall appearance of the races. And even if they're were extremely inconsistent with their appearances, then there would be no reason to really attempt to determine Falmer appearance then, would it?

Er, yes, I do know all that. That's why we like certain types of people (humorous, social,...), although that behaviour sometimes also is just an indication of a physical characteristic (in the case of humor, I heard it's actually an indicator for testosterone). Ok, not sure if that fully replects what you meant, but otherwise, I do understand what you mean with the dog story.
But where did I state the contrary then? Or otherwise why did you bring it up in the first place?



Hmm, ok, there you have a point. I am completely unaware of the technologic level of the Falmer, although I could have guessed they'd be highly advanced, like all elves seem to be (except for Bosmer?). But couldn't that mutation have taken place after they were surpressed by the Nords? Arguably making their civilisation degenerate to the point where they'd be the full victim of nature? (If there are any that survived, of course)

Reopened. Be warned that insults directed against other members will be considered grounds for immediate suspension.

Technological advancement? That doesn't have to be a factor at all. Ayleids survived long into the second era (and possibly the third) almost one thousand years after their supposed "genocide" in a low-technological and magical level. Endurance as a race can be the result of many things not necessarily linked to cultural stress on intellectual endeavors.

And what's with this talk of "mutations". You can't impose facts on Earth like genes and mutation on TES. Darwin's theory of natural selection never mentioned genes or mutations. A nice thing about it is that it can be applied to a world without genomes and mutations. It can be applied to a world fueled by magic like TES. Magical or cultural means of natural selection are never out of the question.

If the Ayleids could do it, why is it so hard to believe the Falmer could? They don't need to follow Earth scientific logic, just Nirnic mythic and magical logic.

GHW:

What you are doing right now is proposing arguments that would make your idea possible and have other people argue against them. It won't make your argument right because all those hypothetical "could be's"still have to be true.

Rather you should look for tiny fat man, study their history and therein find arguments to show that they are indeed the Falmer. Doing it the other way around I could pose the argument that all Ayleid have evolved into swallows because that would allow them to stay undetected better.

In the simplest sense your idea of evolution doesn't fit into the Elderscrolls because it seems to be focused on purely physical factors. In a world with magic, magic and myth play an equal role. A good example would be the Nords who for one reason or the other have no problem walking around naked in the freezing cold, especially the ones more inclined to nature.

From this you can assume that the Falmer didn't shrivel up either.

Exactly. That's the exact point I wanted to make.

I actually agree; the falmer probably would resemble the dwarves.

Darwinism is never to be discounted.