No, I didn't say it's ALWAYS TRUE, I've been making a point of saying the opposite all-throughout. And a myth is NOT "just a story", as I clarified above.
Contradictions are an intrinsic part of the idea. It's well-established that every culture's myth about creation (and every conception of each god) is true, despite the differing descriptions those myths offer.

Your question about the Altmer is too frivolous. A myth isn't just a simple belief or a story; it has to be, well, mythical. You can't just make something up; it has to fulfill mythical archetypes and be mystically or symbolically relevant.

This discussion is starting to incorporate too many CAPS for my taste. :tongue: And I'm afraid I'm not articulate enough to explain this complicated and fundamental idea. Go ask the lore forums if you're really interested.

What's your point? I've never claimed that Falmer aren't real, I've said that we don't know and the arguments for their existence are poor. There's a difference between being sceptical and specifically claiming the antithesis.

It's that particular example that wasn't well placed.
The real world is fundamentally different than the TES world. Thor is a powerful character in Nordic mythology, but the accepted rules of the real world make it quite clear to us that he was not real.
However, within the TES world, many of those rules don't exist, thus saying (or implying) that Thor was 'imagined' (more likely a cultural exaggeration that grew into a legend), means very little when referring to the TES world, because the rules that would define Thor as fictional would not even apply in the TES universe. It's entirely plausible that they might exist.

Just look at the dwemer. They're wiped out right? Nothing left but ruins. In Morrowind, the mage's guild spent a lot of effort studying their ruins and learning about them. Everyone knows that the Dwemer are extinct. Then you run into a live one at the bottom of a dungeon, and later go on to have a conversation with the ghost of a dwemer.

The dragon shouts are Thu'um, and their secrets are understood by the greybeards, who are Nords and live on High Hrothgar.

You seem to be suffering from the false belief that the Elder Scrolls games take place in what we know to be reality. This is not the case. In the mythical (real world use) world of Nirn, reality is altered by myth (stories that are believed); myth becomes reality.



I believe there was also a text detailing the Fall of the Snow Prince.

I don't have a point, I'm just attempting (poorly and with no success) to clarify misunderstandings about the nature of myth and its relation to the world of TES.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Bloodmoon:Fall_of_the_Snow_Prince

A myth is still a myth. Unless Bethesda has presented an alternative definition of the word "Myth" as per the Tamrielic language(s). If you can link that, then thumbs up.

Okay, well your response to the idea that Malavok posted about something being a myth doesn't mean it's true was
"They myths of TES are true and literal." which basically says "myths are always true". They were saying the Falmer story isn't necessarily true just because people believe it is, and you said it is becaust the myths in TES are true and literal.

And if the Altmer idea is too frivolous, why is the Falmer idea a myth? And yes, you can make a myth up. That's how most myths exist. Once you know something is a fact, it's no longer a myth. A myth is a story that people believe is true, it's as simple as that. Why does it have to be symbolic or mystical?

Yes a book that have been written by someone in Tamriel. Whether it's a true story or not, nobody knows. It's a story - i.e. text in a book that's recounting events, regardless of the events being real or fictional.

I should have said "The myths of TES can be and usually are true and literal". I'm not suggesting anything about the Falmer. Their existence may or may not be mythical.
Anyways, you are misunderstanding the nature of myth in the context of TES, and I'm clearly not capable of explaining adequately.

allthough I am like "todd said the 10 playeble races will stay the 10 playeble races"

when the sons of skyrim will spill their own blood,
falmer would be sons of skyrim to....

men vs mer war?

Normally, when one finds a book detailing how a person was buried we have to assume it is either correct or incorrect. When said book is found inside a tomb that matches the description found in the book, we can safely assume that it is correct.

There's actually more than 10 playable races in Skyrim... Oh wait, the Ugly Button is gone, ok nvm then thxbye. :bolt:

Well, I didn't really want to derail this into a linguistics discussion. However, you have to consider the environment exclusively. The TES universe is fundamentally different from our own and, even as they use English as a matter of convenience, when you look at divisive word usage, you have to consider only the fantasy environment.

Take the word "magic." In reality its fairly well accepted that magic is not real. It's a slight of hand, a trick, illusion, etc. Some manner in which people trick you into seeing something that wasn't actually what you think you saw. However, in TES lore magic is very much real. But they still use the word magic, even though the word itself has a connotation of disbelief in reality. That's because in a fantasy environment the rules change, and so do the words that we use that describe them. In reality, myths are generally considered false. In a fantasy environment, that which we would describe as a myth could be very much true.

Anyway, beyond that people are just spinning their wheels. All that is being said from either point of view is "They might be real." and "They might not be real." In terms of likelihood, I wouldn't expect to see Falmer in Skyrim. If BGS want to implement them in some fashion, I would expect it in Skyrim however I don't expect that they will. If they are, I wouldn't expect much more than they gave the role of live Dwemer in Morrowind (a very brief interaction).

So if I discover a tomb, write a nonsense story about that tomb and then leave the book in that tomb for it to be discovered hundreds of years later, then we can safely assume that the book isn't nonsense after all? What kind of logic is that? o.O

In short, yes. We have to assume that documents and artifacts that support each other are accurate (note the use of the word "accurate" and not "factual". Accuracy is highly dependent upon point of view, in both the literal and psychological sense). Obviously, your nonsense book would not lead them to any further discoveries and would eventually be debated ad nauseum by two equally uninformed schools of thought on the matter, but the fact that they support each other means we must assume that they are accurate and we can then use that assumption as a starting point for further research and discovery.

Unlike science, there is no math or logic involved in the digging up of the past. There are assumptions, suppositions, and conjecture that are combined to assemble what we believe to be a jigsaw puzzle of history. We can never know for certain if the events we have disovered are going to be factual, but we can discover enough supporting data to safely assume that they are mostly factual.

Skyrim can have myth's just as we can. What's unlogical to think that people tell storys who becomes many tails and legends who later becomes myth?
Ofcurse, the difference is that myth's in skyrim are much more probable to be real than in our world. But thats about it

"Uncle, I saw signs that might be Falmer boundary-runes, but nothing sure. If any survive, they are wary and withdrawn." - http://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-first-edition-skyrim#4

I've been off-topic enough for one thread, but I'll ask anyways...

How accurate is the 1st Ed. Pocket Guide considered to be? It makes claims about things like Altmer baby-killing that I've heard dismissed as Imperial Propaganda. It's obviously got a strong pro-imperial bias, but how true are the claims made by both the author and that elven commentator?

Bias is a perspective.

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Today the Imperial High Command released a statement noting that with the 8 days war on Summer set won, it has will put an end to the baby-killing practice of the morally bankrupt Altmer.

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The Altmer society is one of the most enlightened societies in Tamriel. Personal freedoms such as the choice of partners and the choice to bear off spring - concepts which are met with laugher and ridiculed of event the most cosmopolitan Nibenese - are freely practised on Summerset.


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We the Altmer are the children of Auriel! We the Altmer are still untainted by the touch of Sithis. Tolerate not the alexic, aphasiac or the agnosiac. Decommission them. THIS IS CRYSTAL-LAW!

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Bias does also not necessarily make an entire source inaccurate.

The way Eric of Guis describes the Altmer is biased. But the bias pertains to the way he describes the Altmer in Imperial terms and judges them by Imperial norms.

I have no doubt this is how the Altmer come across to someone who doesn't understand why they do things. But as a fantasy race this also the point of the Altmer, they're the other, those we don't quite understand. Otherwise they′re just queer looking fascists folk with a bad face-lift.

There also is a tendency for people to make the Altmer more human. The reasoning seems to be that baby-killing is obviously something people just don't do. There are however real world examples, some what infamously https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Sparta#Life_in_Classical_Sparta and I just noticed there is a little line in the wiki that suggest the same happens in Athens too. That's the cradle of western civilisation.

Anyway, the comment from YR I quoted seems to be unbiased. It's just an observation.

Armor of The Snow Prince...Would be epic, reguardless of myth/story/off-topic randomness.....

Yeah let's just make up things randomly as we go along. FYI, history is an avenue of science. You never heard of Occam's Razor? :facepalm:

Thank you, that's very thought-provoking. I was making the mis-assumption that bias was invalidating.

I was wondering that since their history was unaccounted for. Too bad they're not playable.


Did anyone else imagine that was spoken by King Leonidas?