Yeah, but here's the killer: basically you get an official "Bethesda Certified" "ok" to turn on hardcoe mode but you don't get one for the "turn off" fast travel. It's like your own personal mod (not the improved graphics kind). I know it sounds absurd but if you really want to know why I think this way read the posts a few pages back.

Cheer up chap :foodndrink: . That has to be one of the most sombre posts I've read yet. I can almost feel your pain, anguish and torment, exuding from the screen. You seem absolutely drained by the subject of fast travel.

Okay first off, I will agree with the fact that walking the same path, several times in a row in Oblivion got boring and tedious, but thats the nature of the beast. What I would suggest is that you do what I do. Don't walk the same path over and over again. :biggrin: Immersive or not--it is, and always will be a game with limitations. What I did to circumvent this little snag was always plan my quests my movements and my explorations in a circular or fluctuating pattern around the map, in a way that made sense with the flow of the game and the tasks that I was recruited to accomplish. Trust me; sensible non-repetitive navigation keeps it fresh and helps with immersion.

Secondly ease up on the self-doubt and guilt man. I'll say it again, immersive or not--Its just a game--and the best part about it, is that how you play it, is up to you. How can not using fast travel be wrong if you don't actually want to use it. Now I understand what you mean. We mentally create these ideas of how we wish to play the game(rules that we will follow for ourselves) and one of your rules seems to be no fast travel--which is good. But then somewhere along the lines you begin to feel like you chose the wrong rule to follow and think that you should be using it because its there to be used and would make the game easier. Well all I can say to that, is that that's an issue you need to sort out for yourself, and I don't think an option to turn off fast travel, will necessarily help you solve it. (and no I'm not trying to be rude or malicious)

If you permit interrupting FT, then you break FT as a game mechanic. FT is a "cut to the chase and get me there" kind of thing. Breaking FT isn't going to help those that don't like FT, only having an in game transportation system alternative does that.

Even if fast travel was interrupted, say, once out of every 5 attempts(*), it would still be much faster than walking. Fast travel is a 'this is boring, hurry up already' mechanic, not a 'get me to my destination and cheat past everything in between' mechanic.

(*) I would actually base interruptions on the distance travelled, not specifically the number of attempts. But the same concept applies.

The things that personally bother me about a standard Fast Travel implementation is the illogical and nonsensical in-game implications it generates.

From the outset, let's make some Fast-Travel friendly assumptions for the sake of easier argument, particularly that uninterrupted fast travel on major roads is sensible, and that uninterrupted fast travel representing an exact return path (i.e. walk from A to B, FT from B to A) is excusable if done soon after the initial walking.

1. Fast-travel has no account for the passage of in-game time in terms of creature respawning.
Sure, you've cleared that pathway from A to B once before. However, clearing it once before in no way implies that the pathway will be devoid of attackers, same or varied, for all time. Assuming that such a shortcut is justified on grounds of, "I've already cleared out everything there is to clear on that path" is then fallacious.

2. Fast-travel assumes a linear path from point A to point B.
Fast travel at least passes time, but it doesn't do so in a way that corresponds to a optimal "path of least resistance" that factors in anything more than pure distance as its criterion. For instance, a rational player might pick a real-time path from A to B that avoids difficult terrain, stays along main roads, follows trails already cleared, or avoids known dangers as part of a path of least resistance. The system does none of these things, simulating only the time a line would take, even if the smartest path would have been a complete loop-back.

3. Fast-travel masssively enables traversing unexplored regions.
Imagine that you walk from Chorrol to Cheydinhal by following the northern borders of the map. Then, you find a location south of Cheydinhal. Using either OB's or FO3's system, along with observation #2 above, it is perfectly legitimate to FT from your newfound location south of Cheydinhal to Chorrol, which is a straight-line path between the two, despite absolutely no guarantee of having ever experienced the vast amount of world between points A and B.

Similarly, imagine that after discovering that location south of Cheydinhal, you walk to Leyawiin in some fashion other than a straight-south-sw line. At whichever city, you receive a map marker directly between Leyawiin and that Cheydinhal location, one that's very far away from you but not too far away from your previously discovered location. Again, it is perfectly legitimate to FT to that previously discovered location and then trek south-sw for a brief 30 seconds, despite absolutely no guarantee of ever having experienced any of the vast amount of world between Leyawiin and your destination.

These are both examples of ways to completely skip over and never actually visit massive chunks of terrain, creatures, locations, and experience, while purportedly simulating walking through said terrain, creatures, locations, and experiences.


Regarding the "Don't like it, don't use it" slogan, let's be reasonable. Most people have no desire to walk everywhere, all the time. Most people do in fact want fast travel in the game. The difference is that they want an alternate system. Whatever that alternate system may be depends on that player. But the aforementioned slogan does absolutely nothing to address real concerns or real improvements. A game is the cohesive sum of its parts; it would make little to no sense to say, for example, that the combat system is designed to be optional in such games. Why does it work for any other modular mechanic? The various parts are meant to form a unity that flows and fits together, and thus Fast Travel as it is implemented is not quite something that can be passed off as a pure optionality to dismiss on a whim whenever critiques or opinions against current iterations are brought up.

Of course, this is really just solidifying a position on principle. Are any of us going to reverse Bethesda's decision regarding fast travel? No. Do we know anything more regarding FT in TESV than a few blurbs from GI? No. Will I find creative ways to tailor things a bit more to my liking? Yes. Does that mean that such tweaking is a replacement or a real solution? Not really. Will I still buy and enjoy the game even if FT is completely unchanged? Absolutely yes.

I knew it was comming, with full dialogue they were not going to give voiced directions for every single quest especially if there are random quests. I do not like this instant teleportation form of fast travel, i much prefer a network style form of travel. Heres hoping modders are on the ball

I don’t understand what these proposed alternate systems accomplish. People don’t want to walk everywhere all the time, but they’d rather sit in a cart looking out a window/ride some creature that just moves a little faster than they do? That makes even less sense to me.

i think they want to runl to a bus stop and take that to teleport to the destination bus stop to then run some more....it's apparantly more sensible than skipping trip ab and bc and extending b to cover all three.

frankly i'm indifferent to that or the current setup....i'm heavily opposed to none at all. the option to disable fast travel is just ludicrous though. that is purely a case of NOT PRESSING YES. it is completely irrational to want an option to disable one fast travel system in favour of not using it by accident.

Alright, for all of the people saying don't like it don't use it, how about we have Morrowind style fast travel in the game, only Morrowinds, and if you don't like it don't use it. Sound fair?

I’ve got a better idea: stop acting like the devs are going to go back to what was done in Morrowind just because you think it was great. They didn’t make Oblivion (or Fallout 3) to be bad, they made them to be better. Maybe their idea of better doesn’t mesh with yours, but thinking you’re somehow going to get back things that were in an old game is just silly. They were removed for a reason. Bethesda folks always seem to say that they make the games they want to play (ooh, rhyming!), and it seems the games they want to play have a fast travel system a la OB/FO3. Get used to it.

How does it break it though? "Interrupted FT" is almost exactly as Fallout 1 & 2 handled it. Also, in FO1, you could hire on as a caravan guard and get paid to travel.

Why is travel options which result in whatever cost you prefer hard to accept, like I proposed here earlier and in many other of these fast travel threads? A unified interface where you can set todays style of fast travel if you so desire, but with a cost of gametime (not realtime) compared to manually walking, all depending on the options you pick. It allows Oblivion fast travel. It allows Morrowind traveling. It allows Red Dead Redemption traveling (trains) where you get to *observe* the travel, allowing you to just sit back and enjoy the scenery as you enjoy your real life meal.

There is also a tonne of interesting adventures that can be connected to such a fast travel system:
1) Get a Dilligence service up and running by clearing the road between two cities. Fastest service, and secure while a route has been cleared.
2) Limited respawns along the roads, making them more secure than shortest route. May have to re-clear a route every now and then, but easy at higher levels.
3) Mammoth can't/won't be attacked, 100% safe, but is slow. Limited access to them as well as you may have to wait for the next one.
4) Hire Mammoth personnel to the hubs so they have more open days. Sundays always free though. At the start of the game, you may be limited to a single transport going A-B mondays, wednesdays, and fridays, and going B-A tuesdays, thursdays, and saturdays, with only one departure per day. Hire a few people and you have two departures per day in any direction.
5) Clear out pirates dens to enable traveling by ships.
6) Mages guild travel needs an operator, so you may have to wait until opening hours before that person can teleport you. Does not *have* to be free of charge for mages. I never met a gas station clerk who gets free gas.
7) Propylon indices can be replaced with travels via services located at witch covens, but as before you need to discover their locations first in order to use them.
8) Clear a road from town to town makes it secure. After first respawn, there is a 5% of being attacked. After second respawn, there is a 10% of being attacked. Etc etc. As the game progresses and your fame increases, bandits may choose not risking attacking you. At 10% chance, you roll a hit for being ambushed. But at fame 30% you roll a 29 on a 1d100 and avoid the ambush.
9) Maybe sometime you expand the Dilligence service so that it takes you anywhere you have visited before, rather than just the stables (normal walking otherwise takes place whenever travel services doesn't cover a stretch of the route).
10) Go capture the fastest horses to make the Dilligence faster. Makes it possible to just race through any ambushes and just ignore them. Makes mammoth based services kinda obsolete since you can use Dilligence to take you completely risk free to *any* stable on the map rather than just between towns of fixed routes.

There is a lot of roleplaying elements that can be used by the game itself for creating adventures and quests. You may choose to ignore them and go with the "slower than walking fast travel at safe speeds at no money cost" (equal to Oblivions fast travel except the feather exploit), but there might be quests later that makes you wish you did some travel services related quests.

Again, Oblivion fast travel is still maintained, but it allows a much deeper experience for those of us who wants it. Who knows, maybe the fast travelers would like and even prefer this as well given it time? When I started with Operation Flashpoint (hardcoe realism based military sim), I couldn't believe how hard that game was. I came from action paced Unreal Tournament (competitive clans etc), and the idea that a single lead bullet at any body part could cause so much problems was unbelievable to me. No WAY anyone could actually like this crap, right? Wrong. As I evolved and changed my gamestyle I became pretty hardcoe. Means that even if you join the game as a "casual player", you may find reasons to get away from that way of thinking. With "click & appear" style *only*, casual players will remain casual because they don't know about anything else than "just walk instead".

Ohh, I'm so sick of this constant complaining. No one is forcing you to buy a game you have so little hope for.

If you guys hate the system so much you should not buy the game... Just keep playing morrowind... Or even better make a mod for it with a different color palette and call it morrowind 2. Problem solved.



I think Skyrim will be awesome I will get it on release...

The problem with adding the morrowind like system is it makes absolutely no sense if you can fast travel for free. Having that functionality would be a waist. This is just an excuse to complain. Make a Mod and do it that way if you feel passionate about it. Making it toggle able is also something that makes no sense. Like people have said before use restraint and walk to your destination but to add something that won't add immersion or actually do anything functional is a waist of time for the developers to work on.

The game will be fun I have no doubt of that. Just be patient and wait to see videos of it in action. I doubt anyones experience is going to actually be ruined by lack of other fast travel options. Having one that works is enough.

What does any alternate system accomplish? It gives the game world a different flavor, just as the changes to, say, the combat system or to the marksman system or to the user interface or to the skill system will give the game a different flavor.


Morrowind's transport network, while certainly the most popular alternative, does not have to be the end-all-be-all of transport any more than OB/FO3's does.

For instance, a map where the player can select their own route from A to B, with different or even nonexistent chances of interrupt for the route taken, would be an interesting alternative, especially if food/gold were taken as the limitations of Fast Travel length.

Or the world could use a system of non-magic-skill-based mark-and-recall substitutes (think portable propylons), where the player has a large but still finite selection of destinations to port back to, and must manage their locations strategically.

Or there could in fact be a schedule of available transport, where the player had to catch their transporter at certain times to enjoy the instant port.

Or fast travel could be completely unchanged other than simulating potential health loss or placing any immediately discoverable locations between points A and B on the map (after all, it's simulating walking that distaace).


The thing that I find curious, aggregately coming from those who dislike questioning fast travel's current implementation, is an overwhelming sense of "Since this version of the mechanic is what the majority of players prefer, it is therefore forever beyond improvement and redundant to try." Of course, as with any mechanic in a game, that is simply not true.

Again, just to note, it's not like we're going to affect that inherent design decision for this particular game in the slightest, I will find my own half-effort substitutions for the things I personally would wish to see, and I will still enjoy the game immensely. But all the same, it's not some horrific mark of excommunication to envision difference and to begin to argue for it.

Its not that people that are against it being changed its that the changes just don't add anything that might be fun.

Taking away health or items would punish players (who would think it was unfair and justly so)
Interrupting players would make for a very annoying experience (people fast travel to avoid danger and interruptions so that they can get back to playing the game)
Having to be at a place at a certain time makes for an interesting quest objective that is optional but if it was a transportation object or town I would hate to wait, and load the screen, and then wait, for the NPC who runs the transport to walk over, and wait, while the screen loads again for the next area. (If you remember zelda used this for Hyrule castle it was just annoying/discouraging when you would run right up to it in the distance and it closes up on you.)
Mark and recall basically lead to the system we have now. where you need to mark your location that you have already been and then when you are ready recall to that location which according to the Devs they are trying to get rid of menu interface that bogs down gameplay.

I find nothing wrong with change. It is a good thing BUT change that goes backwards or creates unneeded annoyance is something that I really don't want. Taking away instant travel will take me out of the experience especially if I have to walk all the way over to a place on the other side of the map forget to save and Die and then have to do the same thing over again (this is the type of thing that makes me set games down and not finish them) It needs to feel fluid and fun otherwise people will hate it. Like I have said in my post before having to pay to go somewhere is stupid if you already have the current fast travel system in place. The morrowind system would be a step backwards not forwards at this point. If people like that system better then they can mod the game on PC or otherwise walk/ride everywhere.

If you have a way to reward people for fast traveling in your way then we might agree on something that might be interesting(special quests/new equipment/Gold and riches) . I don't play video games to have realistic experiences I play them to have fun this is the core of gamers.

To tackle particulars first,


Why is such a thing unfair? Is having to exchange gold for a new weapon at a shop unfair to players? Fast travel, as it is currently defined, is the instant simulation of having moved from point A to point B. And based on this definition, there are inherent costs of moving from point A to point B. Whether those costs are in gold for transport or health for risking the journey alone based on precalculated conditions, that is the natural outcome of the system those players are using.


Same as above, it's only another representation of the inherent costs of moving from point A to Point B. The only difference between the above and this is that the above even simulates the actual combat for you. I can understand not wanting interrupts, but if one representation is denied, surely the other is a necessity?


And yet I see little to no difference in this example from the basic premise of Fast Travel in general. All you have to do is instantly fast-forward time to access the opportunity to instantly fast-forward space. The problem of Zelda as an example was that, more often than not, you had to wait the entire night for those gates to reopen. Here, that is not the case. And if the only legitimate stab at this particular representation is that it requires two instant-fast-forwards instead of one, I can't help but wonder how much time that realistically would add. Probably on the order of a few seconds, assuming scheduling not being as hit-and-miss as in Oblivion.


Mark and recall as I described it implies a constant limit that is not present now. It would be akin to picking 4 or 5 or so favorite locations, marking them as "home" locations, and limiting fast travel only to those locations until they are redefined (actual numbers are open to negotiation). That is a remarkably different system with remarkably different implications for how one plays the game.
As for the menu system, the insinuation I'm hearing is that mark and recall inherently bogs down menus. I propose than any mechanic can be given an artfully designed and minimalistic travel system. In fact, a system that limits how many places you can travel to at a time would by definition be more minimalistic, as the on-screen options they would have to display would be 4 to 5 destinations versus potentially 100+ destinations.


I must admit I find it odd that you describe the removal of FT to take you out of the experience, particularly because that is what FT is designed exactly to do. It takes you literally outside of the experience through a black screen or loading screen and deposits you back in the experience in a disjoint manner, like an audio player skipping portions of an audio track. Saving is another issue entirely; it's always up to the player regardless of the system to ensure their saving habits are healthy.


Now, onto the more esoteric things,


The trouble with using phrases like "backwards" or "forwards" or "unneeded annoyance" or "fun", is that all those phrases are purely subjective. For the sake of argument, I won't try to argue that many gamers are actually open to interpretation so long as a particular system they find limiting works well and cohesively within a world and a larger system of mechanics. Instead, let's just assume that it is certain that the majority of gamers right now do in fact prefer nonlimited and nonpunishing fast travel to any other alternative in the infinite sea of alternatives and overarching mechanics systems that could possibly be proposed.

That premise accepted, I would caution defining such subjective phrases concretely, even if it is not the intention. While Morrowind's system may be backwards to some or even hypothetically most, it is by no means guaranteed to be backwards to anyone else. And whatever might constitute as forwards for some or even most is by no means guaranteed to be forwards to anyone else. Fun in particular falls under the same caveat, along with annoying. Some don't find it fun to have limitations, artificial or in-game. Some define their playstyles by it. Perhaps believability doesn't way too heavily on your experience of fun in the game. For others, it plays more or entirely into their experience of fun, depending on where they are in the gradient.

The only thing I would really have to say about the rejection of limiting systems is that the only thing holding current FT in the limelight is the assumed premise that the majority of the gaming audience will refuse any form of limitation, ever, because it threatens the assumed common definition of "fun." The thorn to this issue is that there never has been and never will be a common definition of fun. Is there a majority definition at this moment that defines travel limitations in any form as not fun? For the sake of argument, sure. But if, in the future, that majority definition ever shifts, whether it be towards limitation or towards something entirely different, will those who held optionality as their flag of "fun fast travel" be seen by the new standard-bearers as cluttering up discussions with their poiontless hopes, trying to re-marshal support for a system that surely is nothing more than an absolute step backwards?

The limits of the majority is the whims of the majority itself.
Do I have a suggestion that I think will unite the majority of the current majority and minority? No, sadly.
Do I think that both sides need to recognize a bit of give-and-take to come to a more perfect system. Absolutely.

You mean Fast Travel is not for simply deciding where you wish to be and letting the game handle the trip? People abuse it to avoid combat?
Random chance encounters would be the best possible change to the fast travel system that they could do ~it was one of two things broken with it; the 2nd best change would be to account for spell & drug timers expiring during the trip.


I agree with you that the Fast Travel option should not be removed, but I disagree that the Morrowind methods should not be re-introduced; they are not redundant. Mechanically... the PC would have the option of "fast" traveling to their destination on foot, or by paid coach. Travel times would of course be different. The paid travel would get them there faster, and potentially provide allies, should they be attacked somewhere along the way.

Reward? I don't follow you. :confused:
Giving a reward for "Fast Travel" doesn't make sense... it would be just like giving a reward for loitering with the ''wait" feature.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is no practical difference between "Fast Travel" and choosing "wait"; they both work the same way, and for the same reason; they fade out, then fade back in, and the player does not have to sit through the time it takes to arrive at their destination. :shrug:

Fast travel should take time if nothing else.

I think you should die if you fast travel.

It does take time. :shrug:

**An awful lot of players seem to misunderstand what Fast Travel is.
Many seem to believe that the PC "magically" vanishes and reappears miles away
(they think its some kind of cheat); that's not it ~that was never it.

Travel should come with risk, and the potential for death, but travel in and of itself shouldn't be fatal.

You know, in Oblivion, you would fast travel to the middle of a troll orgy. So even though it was reliable, sometimes you had to face the unexpected.

It is specifically unfair because some players feel that if an unseen force hurts you then you are being treated unfairly. It would be like in a strategy game moving to a location and half of your troops are injured because of some random disease or event. Something that I don't see should never kill or hurt me in a game. Fast travel is supposed to get you to the rewards faster that is what the fun is about the current system. If there is an established price then no it is not unfair to pay for something but to deliberately damage stats or other things is something most people would hate with a passion. You can rationalize it but it does not seem fun at all to me. If you want a cost to fast travel you already have it with the lack of experience or not being able to find locations right away and having to walk there or not meeting other quest givers, so on, and so forth. My point is more if you already have a system in place that is free why on earth would you pay or take longer to get to the same place?



Dragon age does this and it just waists time that I don't want to spend unless it is part of a quest or otherwise. Eventually slogging through fights would be something that just waist time and get old fast. It has never been a fun aspect unless there is a specific reason that gives you something for it I see no reason to have it. even If they happened 10% of the time it would just jar me where I am expecting to get someplace and finish a quest that really is only a five minute walk and I get interrupted by something I would have just ran past otherwise.



The difference is a small amount of time that it takes such as the 30 seconds to load the 10 second to get to the wait and setting it to the right time. The next 30 seconds to load. This might not seem like a lot to you but I find it very annoying when I could have just chosen 1 place on the map and gotten there in 30 seconds.



The problem is they have to label the places on the map anyway so the point is moot. Mark and recall are just points on a map 400,139 same with how fast travel works but you don't need to set the spells which saves you 5 to 10 seconds. (not a lot but like I said before these things add up and get stale fast)



Where as instead I would still have to do the same thing but it would take me longer if we went over to the morrowind side of things. you still have a loading screen with your versions I say it takes me out of the experience because I want to get to the quest faster not slower. I enjoy the quests I will explore the game in my own time but when I play the quests I want to get there and get on in a very linear fashion. I disagree that fast travel is designed to take you out of the experience because it gets you to where you want to be 5-30 minutes faster in a game like Elder Scrolls. To say that walking everywhere is more immersive maybe but thats a choice that anyone has already. (I use saving as an example. It happens, and happened a lot during morrowind for me where I would lose a lot of progress and I would stop playing the game for weeks because its very annoying. Maybe my fault but I still accomplished all those things for nothing which makes me mad as a player.)




This entire conversation we are having is purely subjective reasoning. You would have to name objectively what the terms are. I am giving you my argument and my reasoning which is mine you obviously don't share this but this doesn't mean that I am wrong or that you are wrong. I don't feel I have unsoundly argued anything here at all my concerns are viable concerns.

About moving back(literally) to morrowind. Most arguments about morrowind and oblivion are simply more towards the nostalgic side of things and personal preference. Some things morrowind did great, The map, quests, graphics, animations, gameplay movement, magic, and fighting system were things I think oblivion did better. Morrowind was more in depth, there was more to explore, more weapons, and no leveling objects/enemies was very nice. Both games have their strengths I personally prefer the smoother experience of oblivion.

If people wanted believability they would not play a game with mystical creatures and magic. The argument on fun relates to why people play games. There are games that are simply not fun mostly because they have you do things that are redundant, pointless, hard to get to, time consuming, aggravating, or repetitive ETC... Why would a system going back to morrowind be more fun is more my question. I think its just a nostalgia argument that says "in my day we had more immersive traveling that was super realistic. Half the game was spent walking we were hardcoe." There has to be a better reason then that for things to change. It has to be meaningful. Like I said if there is something thats better then I am game to listen.



Use your imagination people are getting used to instant rewards trophies/achievements ETC... If I have to go to a specific place in towns at a specific time to fast travel then I want there to be more incentive then simply fast traveling to the next town. Otherwise I like my plain old get there fast and efficiently. For the "you lose heath randomly" you should have "you got so and so useful stuff randomly" Just like you would have if you walked. This makes it more likely that I would want to take the risk. The current reward for fast travel is saving time this is the current rewarding aspect of it. If you have something that is time wasting and energy using there should be a similar reward for doing that that makes it worth it. (hence the reference to more fun)

Fast travel takes you to places, waiting leaves you at the same place. That is the difference. The practicality is that I don't like waiting, just to get to fast travel, just to get to where I wanted to go anyway.

They fast travel to avoid playing the game, so they can get back to playing the game? I hope I'm not the only one to see a contradiction, here. Danger and "interruptions" are part of the game. Having a way to avoid it is no better than cheating. Why not allow them to avoid danger and interruuptions in a dungeon so they can just go get their phat loot? Or a way to avoid danger and interruptions in the main quest so they can "win"?

I like how fall out handles it. Where you can only travel to locations you have already discovered. In oblivion they only did that for dungeons and landmarks but alot of the time u could just travel to the nearest city and then walk a little distance. If you take the time to travel there the first time u should be rewarded with a fast travel option.