I would prefer every possible fast travel option. That is - some system of public transportation - carriages, boats, etc. - that, by default, would start off with the character approaching someone, buying passage, boarding the transport, and traveling in real time. That would have a toggle to skip ahead to the destination at any time, with the appropriate amount of time passed. In addition to that, there would be a purely menu based system, and that would have a little set-up routine at the beginning of the game, with choices to display nothing until the character has actually gone there or to display all the cities from the beginning of the game.

I can't imagine that anyone would be unable to find some way to travel as they desire that way.

More or less, that's what is theoretically going to exist in Skyrim.

from what people say about it, I would rather have Morrowind's style (guessing there were fast travel options via charriots in the city or something)
I want the game to feel real

:goodjob:

But real for the setting, In the Earth year of 2011 people can mark a geographical point on your GPS device.

Yeah, but it's a pretty big "theoretically." My big fear about the travel system is that it sounds like the carriages are not meant to appeal to Morrowind travel fans, but rather Oblivion travel fans. I'm pretty sure they said that fast travel will work like fallout 3, where you can only fast travel to places you've visited before. In Oblivion you could go to every single major city without ever visiting any of them. Some people liked being able to instantly fast travel to cities - so they put in a carriage system that lets them quickly discover the major cities for a few coins.

But even if I'm wrong, a single carriage system doesn't come close to the myriad of options that characters in Morrowind had.

I have the same thoughts.

It reminded me, how will the map work? In Morrowind I know you could barely see anything on the map when you started, and you would have to explore to reveal places on the map (Well besides major towns, i think). I liked that. haha

I think that since the map will be a 3d rendering of the actual game world, it would be cool to have a sort of cloud-cover fog of war. Maybe that sounds to much like LoZ, but I think it would be cool if done right.

Agreed, with full thought! I just hope they don't just have the whole map clear once you begin the came, only hiding minor points of interest!

As much as morrowind. I want to pay for transport and this new carriage system sounds like taxis from GTA IV where you can skip or sit back and enjoy the view.

Yeah, but it would've taken another few paragraphs at least to explore that "theoretically," and would've gotten into supposition, and would've probably invited the predictable haranguing from those so inclined, so I just cut it short with that.


Well.... I'd say that the carriages are meant as a sop to fans of the Morrowind system, or more broadly of in-game fast travel as opposed to menu-based fast travel. That is, it's a way to hopefully at least deter them from complaining that fast travel was poorly handled AGAIN. I don't expect it to be particularly detailed - just there. And the menu-based fast travel will still be there, for those so inclined.


Yeah - that's my understanding too, and that's most of the detail I was trying to avoid getting into with that "more or less."


Right - that's why I suggested having it as an option from the beginning - so that those who didn't want to be bothered with finding a city could just fast travel there and those who wanted at least that bit of challenge could set it so they had to make it there on their own the first time.


............... I hadn't considered that.

Yeah - that's why you said that it's meant to appeal to Oblvion fans (I thought that was sort of inexplicable when I first read it)..........

Damn. That could well be exactly the case. Ride the carriage there the first time, then you're free to open the menu and click any time after that.......


Oh yeah, but that was pretty much a given. I wouldn't expect to ever see a system that complex in a TES game again. It'd just be resources invested in something that a good part of their market would never use anyway. I fully expect barely sufficient in-game fast travel to avoid the bulk of the complaints about its absence and nothing more.

That bit there, with the "I wouldn't expect to ever see a system that complex in a TES game again." just disappointments me, because I know it is probably true. It just bugs me, years ago it seemed games were made to be fun, now it feels sort of like games are just made to make money... I just feel that lots of gaming companies have really increased the output of games, but the quality has suffered! I dunno, that's just some random rambling in me head!

Yeah - that's pretty much right. It's just unavoidable, really. There are still companies putting out really complex games, but they're around the edges mostly - little independent startups taking a gamble and trying to win over a niche market. The biggest companies really have little choice but to mainstream their games at least as much as they can get away with, just because they have much higher operating costs and need much higher sales. The number of units that Beth is going to have to sell just to break even is certainly beyond the wildest dreams for total sales for smaller companies working on more obscure games, and in order to sell that many copies, they have to appeal to the broadest possible market. That's just the way it goes.

What you have just said is like a pearl of wisdom, and with it an illumination that awakens my sleep-deprived brain! Well, not so much the last part, I feel pretty tired again...

What caused the operating costs to raise though? I don't know the answer to that


You know, I really like capitalism. But sometimes it has some pesky flaws! haha

i am sorry im a little off right now, i need sleep

The operating costs overall undoubtedly increased, but mostly what it is is that the operating costs for a particularly successful company (like Bethesda) inevitably increase, simply because they get new offices, hire more employees, hire more executives, pay them better salaries, advertise more.....

I think Morrowind got something right, here. I mean, you had to pay a fare on siltstriders and boats to get from place to place, if you wanted to go there quickly (instantly in gameplay). But, there was an entire experience to be had from just going by land, too. An adventure... this was truly exploration. Oblivion never really captured that feel, as Cyrodiil felt too tame and civilized. You encounters pretty much the same forests and grasslands, perhaps some mountains up north, or swamps in the south.

I've just joined the forum but I've been reading posts for months now and seen the subject of fast travel come up again and again. After hearing the debate rage for so long I've decided that I finally have to comment on it.



Exactly. I poured my heart and soul into multiple play-throughs of Morrowind and Oblivion, and each game last well over 150 hours. Did the same with fallout 3 and now I'm revisiting New Vegas (even though it's Obsidian and the buggiest game I've ever played, it's comparable) and I'm at around the 100 hour mark. With the amount of content, quests, items and size of the worlds Bethesda is crafting for us I can't imagine being able to do multiple play-throughs with different characters if Skyrim has a weaker fast-travel system than Oblivion. While I understand the talk about immersion and the temptation to use it in a pinch if it's an option, I need it. If their radiant story system works as well as Bethesda says it does, there's a good chance that long periods of travel within quests will be required. If I'm going to be sent to a random nearby dungeon that I haven't been to yet for a quest, but I've search all the ones that are nearby, I might have to travel quite far. There's still a lot that isn't known about how these system will turn out, but I'd hate to not be able to play what I anticipate to be, my favorite game for years to come, because of time restraints. I have to walk through the same landscape I've walked through dozens of times just to get to my quest destination and then walk back. I want lots of quests, lots of dungeons, lots of variety, which means fast travel. Oblivion's fast travel system was perfect (aside from having the ability to visit any of the major cities from the get go).



And Gunnar, I agree with you on a certain level but not about this last quote. I believe Todd said he had a team working for two years straight just to get dragons scripted and designed right. That doesn't seem like the kind of thing done purely to make some extra coin, but instead to make an outstanding game. While it's important to appeal to huge fans of the series (like me), it's also important to figure out what most people consider to be the best RPG because, let's face it, just because we've been a fan of the series and liked old ideas, doesn't mean they're the best or that we're right. Also you have to make money to keep making games and I trust Bethesda to make the right choices. Haven't let me down yet.

Let's have some faith people and stop worrying about fast-travel

Why not? Please be specific... I've been trying to figure out this point of view for three years. Doesn't Morrowind fade to a loading screen when you book passage on a silt strider? (Well... Unless you have http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRUadDc1onc

Would you explain the the distinction to me, that makes Silt Striders any different from standard map travel? They do the exact same thing, in almost the same way, and both represent an 'out of gameplay' foot trek to a new location ~the only difference I can see is in whose feet it is ~either the Strider's or the PC's; and that one method is free and the other is paid... but the free method is simply choosing to walk somewhere.

In either case there is a walk to a new location and the player resumes control when they arrive (by either means).

How? How is it possibly cheating? I'll grant that its broken, in that it does not allow for expiring spell timers, and does not account for encounters along the way (both good and bad). I would still call it a design flaw ~not a cheat. It serves an important function, and represents the PC's foot travel from point to point, when the player is tired of the view, or wishes not to get bogged down by the travel time. :shrug: No Fast Travel is a deal breaker for me.

*Incidentally... I wouldn't be able to endure that mod myself.

Yes, that haha... thank you!



I agree, the exploration was really thrilling for me in Morrowind, but in Oblivion it was not so much so.. Oblivion's landscape kinda felt generic, really... but perhaps that should have been expected, Morrowind had much more diverse climates! Sand, grass, snow...



I am sorry for the last quote you mentioned, I thought later I should probably change it, i went at the effect but had an incorrect cause! In this case, with Skyrim, without a doubt I know the people making this game are dedicated to it. I was thinking of changing what I said to say money OR time constraints (i've noticed a lot of games coming out too early lately...) which is probably not the actual developer's fault, but of the marketer.

I know this game will be good, I have trust in them as well! I, well I dunno, perhaps I would think just like you on this subject if I had less time to play. I would, I admit it now. Frankly, this could perhaps be called a battle of people with lives versus those without! Though please, do not take offense anyone for my saying of that, it is just a quick way to grossly generalize it, cause i don't have the mind to go on about it!

How about both?But no alas you "no fast travel" people still cant control yourself,lets agree you wish to impose your views on everyone else and ruin the game possibly for them all because you cant stop your self from using fast travel

How about the developers include a few reeelly long (and sensible) paths to and from the major locations, and have the PC walk there (following the path) in real time ~and make it an optional behavior that defaults to 'Off'.

I think the majority of the people who dislike point-and-click fast travel don't mind it being included in the game as long as there are a variety of other fast travel methods, similar (not identical obviously) to Morrowind's. Throughout looking at several forums I think I've seen just as many people saying "we have fast travel, we don't need morrowind style fast travel" as people saying "oblivion style fast travel shouldn't be in the game." The don't like it don't use it argument is bs considering there are no alternatives.

For me, and this is going to be different for everyone, it just ruins the immersion for me. Now, as to why it is any different from the silt striders though:

Silt striders were as thus: They only transported from one town to another, and I presume they would take the same path as the roads do, and always that same path. So, for that, I would think it is acceptable for a silt strider to be there to allow that fast-travel, because who wants to run through the same road 20 times!? But, now here is why I think it different from traveling from any location: when you don't use the fast-travel you allow yourself to go through paths that you never had before on your way back, or as in a different path to get to your destination. I mean, what is the point of having such a big map if everyone just fast-travels anyway? Why not cut down all the open space and just have dungeons everywhere?? agh im sorry everything im writing probably makes no sense... i will try again later in the day, after some sleep!



I feel it is cheating because I admit to myself that I am too lazy to walk normally (entirely my own fault though, but it is hard to resist the temptation!), and to risk getting myself in danger. If you fast-travel, there is absolutely no challenge whatsoever. If you walk yourself, you might run into some enemies, and Lo! Perhaps even die! It just makes it more excited, and also more realistic (in my view)! and oh i just noticed you mentioned this exact thing as "does not account for encounters"...

Let me just say this: In real life, we can't fast travel. (i mean like in the middle ages, in case you were going to try to counter-point that!)
So, it is more realistic for the game to not allow fast travel. My thinking leads me to believe that is a fact, although that fact might be very cumbersome for some! (that is a weird bit of wording..)
In the end now, that change in realism ruins my immersion in the game, i forget that I am in the game and remember I am Gunnar, a worthless piece of flesh occupying some space in cold Minnesota! I just don't like when that happens, and I know it is entierly my own fault.

aghgh... what am i saying now..

I do count it as a cheat, though a cheat of conviniance. It is like a cheat like so: In a game you can choose to conduct the battle yourself, or you can auto-do it. When you know you will win either way, I just tend to choose auto-do! But after awhile of doing that, it just feels like, whats the point of the game then? I am skipping a major part of this game, that was meant to be played! It was not made for just the sake to brag of! Besides, when I do that cheat of auto-doing, I tend to start to think I would win every battle, and sooner or later I barely do any battles!

ok i have to sleep i can't remember what I am even writing without looking back every five seconds... goodnight for now!

I used fast travel extensively in both Oblivion and Fallout 3 but still explored and discovered nearly every location on the map. I'll argue that by having fast travel I could explore much more than I could have otherwise. I could hop from place to place, exploring the map as I went but not going over the same landscape many times over.

I had no problem getting lost in the beauty (it was quite stunning in 2006) and fantasy of Cyrodiil while taking full advantage of the fast travel system. I'm not opposed to having a Silt Strider system as long as there are many many "stations", having to pay each time you fast-travel (similar to a Silt Strider fee) along with Silt Striders, or other similar proposed ideas out there. But effective fast travel I feel is a must for a game of this scale and depth.

Also on your 2nd or 3rd playthrough, you've already explored. Do you really want to have those same long walks when you know exactly what's around the next corner? If you're a completionist like I am, this makes for a very monotonous 3rd or 4th journey.

There's a lot a valid points out there concerning fast travel, but take a minute to weigh the pros and the cons.

Amsivi and divine inetrvention and mark/recall

Don't like fast travel, don't use fast travel. You wouldn't be able to use it when enemies are nearby so it's hardly cheating.

Also I find your experience with Morrowind night funny. Lightning is a joke in Morrowind, everything is extremely bright. The only thing that obstructs your view is the sand/ash storm at most...

this would be perfect

i remember one playthrogh in oblivion were i planned not to use fast-travel and become a vampire neither happened

i always get tempted