Morrowind's fast travel system was my favorite. Not only were there boats, silt striders and mages guild transports, but you could also use mark/recall and intervention spells to get around. Being able to fast travel as easily as you could in Oblivion without cost took away from the experience a little bit.

Excuse me, are you implying that people who used and enjoyed Oblivion's fast travel system weren't "playing" the game?

That's ridiculous. If your immersion is broke while using fast travel, it's because you allowed it to break. You could've simply not used it and ignored it and played the game as if it wasn't there in the first place. There's no need to insult people who used it and accuse them of not "playing" the game, and then try to further insult them by calling them "lazy."

Voted for a mix/mashup of the two systems (Ob and MW). The problem with OB wasn't instant fast-travel. It was the fact that it didn't provide any other travelling means (except running).

I wish they give you a toggle or something in the options menu for fast travelling though (that is if they implement a MW system as well). The temptation could prove too big sometimes to just click the map XD

I do want to keep fast travel just because sometimes it is really useful but I also want the MW ways back, these are the best and I think that if all the options MW and fast travel are in game people wouldn't argue so much about it.

I liked MW travel system, but I will say this - it was a bit hard to remember all the connection points - e.g. travel from this city to THAT city by boat, then go to the Stiltwalker to travel to third city. This could be helped, a lot, however, by being able to visualize the travel network on the world map (e.g. show all the routes for one travel method in one color, say blue lines, another travel method in a different color like red or yellow - much like the transit maps at a bus/train station in most major cities which show all the rail and bus lines, and where they connect together) - something Morrowind badly lacked - you basically had to memorize all the routes.

There's one other thing that was a problem with Morrowind fast travel - it depended a bit too much upon the player not being an outlaw/werewolf/vampire. If you were attacked on site when you entered a town, you couldn't use fast travel very well. On the one hand, that's fairly realistic/immersive. If you want the benefits of 'society', you need to not be an outcast of that society. On the other hand, as a game, you need some options for evil/non-human characters. Oblivion fast travel, at least, didn't care that you were a vampire. Of course, MW style teleportation could resolve that problem - except in Morrowind, you could only memorize one destination. All other teleportation was to temples/shrines, which again, werewolfs, vampires, and outlaws couldn't use very well.

If they are going to have something like the Divine/Almsivi Intervention spells, they should add a third set of such teleportation points which are safe for 'evil' characters to teleport too - e.g. Daedric shrines, or ancient ruins of some sort, out in the wilderness. (Morrowind did sort of have that with the, what where they called, Propylon Chambers? But those were a royal pain to use without the Master Index plugin (because it was about impossible to find all the stones without the hints from the Mages Guild NPC), and then the Master Index plug-in basically forced you to turn over all the propylon stones to the NPC in the mages guild (because he wouldn't tell you the next location hint until you gave him the previous stone), then when you had finished finding all the stones, they converted the propylon chambers from being a chamber-to-chamber teleport mechanism, into a chamber-to-mages-guild teleport) - in the end, the Propylon chambers were a great idea with terrible implementation.

I'm not implying that at all. I am stating it.

Immersion is only one factor that contributes to enjoyment, however, in an RPG it is one of the most important. It is common for games to be developed for the lowest common denominator. As video games have become more popular and mainstream, developers often find that they have to simplify things in order to have wider market appeal (often at the insistance of the publisher). The FPS genre has quickly become the most notable victim of this as many of the games released are little more than 10 hour movies requiring little to no skill and offering barely any enjoyment. Since combat in TES shares some similarity with the FPS genre, many FPS fans started playing Morrowind on the XBox. A lot of these new players were not RPG players prior to this and were unhappy with many of the things in RPGs that RPG fans love (such as deep immersion, realism, and careful planning). As there are significantly more FPS players (as it is a more popular genre), Bethesda decided to cater to many of the FPS player complaints. One of those complaints was that it took too long to travel from place to place. These "players" would rather skip all of the RPG elements and go straight to cutting things up, which is a trademark of the FPS genre (i.e. no breaks in the action, no large maps to explore, etc.).

In conclusion, I'm sorry that you feel insulted, but your personal feelings have no impact on my personal opinion that has been reached through careful thought, historical and economic anolysis, and years of playing nearly all genres (no racing games for me). Your suggestion that RPG fans simply not use Lazy Mode fails to address any of the issues that the implementation of Lazy Mode brought into the game. As I said before, I fully expect games (especially any game that has a degree of crossover with FPS) to become more and more lazy with the increasing popularity of gaming, at least until we have a gamers' renaissance.

I think that they should have fast traveling like in Oblivion. But the player should be able to turn it off. And if they have a hardcoe mode then fast traveling shouldn't been in the hardcoe mode.

Awesome really though I do agree with what you posted but I personally used fast travel (30%) , mixed with actually alking (70%) and I do enjoy fast travel sometimes. Like I said MW is the way to go, mages guilds transportation, wagons and walking.

A town portal scroll or spell like it. I'll sell my loot in town then I will go back to where I was!

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Actually it did require more time because you had to find a place travelling service before you could fast travel, and in Morrowind the running speed was dreadful. Secondly I don't understand this intelligence argument, Morrowind fast travel didn't require intelligent thought, it required the intelligence of a ant, to suggest otherwise is insulting actual intelligent thought, why should it even require intelligent thought, it freaking travelling, not rocket science. Obviously the issue is not about intelligence, it's about convenience, when people prefer OB FT to MO FT, it's because it's more convenient, If morrowind had travelling caravans where you could hitchhike or a faster default running/walking, this might even not have been an issue.



Again I don't understand this intelligence argument, If you can FT in Morrowind you seriously kidding yourself if you think that makes you smart, it doesn't, it means you're not a vegetable. The only real point here is that it had no consequences, but that was because it was simulated walking, the unimmersive part would be that you didn't have random encounters, but than again, you neither had that in Morrowind, hopefully this will be improved upon by skyrim.

You say the system is a product of lazy gamers, and in a moment you're gonna say it's because of catering to FPS crowds. I cannot see this connection, I'm lazy when I'm playing Baldur's Gate using only my mouse. I sure as hell ain't lazy when I'm sprinting around in an FPS, under constant pressure and can't lose concentration.



Shades already touched on why Morrowinds system was very much less than perfect.

Combo travel plans? you mean link together traveling lines, instead of having to travel somewhere, go out of traveling mode, only to enter it again and then travel to the new place, good idea, very convenient, but that could constitute being lazy.

Yes, with an explanation of how you acquired the map. Like, it's an enchanted map that belonged to a mage.

Morrowind Fast Travel with Morrowind Teleportation would be all I want and all I need in terms of fast travelling.

I didn't say it didn't require more time, I said it didn't require much more time, and it really didn't. If finding the place to travel from was the problem, a simply minimap icon would have solved it.

Running speed was upped in OB, which is a small tweak that would have helped the MW system. Still not a reason to completely replace it.



The "intelligence" argument stems from the fact that you actually have to do some thinking to use MW (picking your destination as it relates to further travel plans). In OB there is no thinking at all, which means that MW requires more thought to use.



And that there was no cost associated with traveling across the entire region.
And that you never had a time constraint (granted, MW didn't have many either, but that doesn't make it any less important).
There were plenty of reasons to have consequences for using a fast travel system, and none of them were implemented in OB.



Twitch-based mechanics that promote constant hand-eye coordination are not the issue here. The issue here is that FPS players want to play FPS games and want anything removed from TES games that inhibit their ability to have constant action. That is what they want, and that is not what I want. This creates a schism that cannot be easily bridged, and OB's system didn't come close.



Shades is entitled to his opinion, as are you. And so am I.
My position has been that MW had a nearly perfect system that simply needed a few pieces here and there as well as a better implementation. OB simply threw out a great platform and put in one that was exactly what FPS players want (quick access to combat) with nothing for RPG players.



Again, nothing wrong with convenience. The main problem is the immersion.

On a fetch quest I'd rather not spend an hour trotting back and forth just to deliver something or sell something.

Though I suppose without fast travel it does make the game feel a lot bigger. It's more of a matter of convenience I think. I remember carrying npcs around without fast traveling, that was hard.

As much as I like the epic feel a fast travel system would be good. The Morrowind style mixed in would be cool too I suppose.

I mean when I do want the epic feel in Oblivion, I just don't fast travel, it's a remarkably easy fix.

I think something like Morrowind, but even more immersive. I want to be able to get on a ship and stand on deck as the crew sets sail, talk to some of the other passengers below-deck. I want to be able to get in a carriage or the back of a wagon and watch the countryside roll by. Plus some magical options like teleportation for truly instant travel.

The in-game map has never been 'explained'. Well, I suppose the Oblivion Map, which had like a cartographers 'seal' affixed to it is sort of explained - though not why you already have it with you in prison and don't have to buy it from a merchant. Why would a map with travel information need to be explained? Why does it even have to be magic? You think they can't develop colored ink in a fantasy setting? Why couldn't my character just 'ink-in' the line on the map as I travel and find the routes? Or, perhaps, the cartographer which made the map put the established travel routes on the map already when you 'acquired' it, just like major roads and cities are already on the map when you get it?

Morrowind system was close to perfection. If you are an ADVENTURER and a fan of RPG games you'll take pleasure in wandering blind on the map for treasures and unique locations, no matter how many jobs and little play time you have.

It was defined in Redguard, they had a cartography shop and everything.

That's not true. I'm a big fan of the RPG Daggerfall and wandering blind on the map doesn't interest me that much.

For a reason I can never figure out, the fast travel topics seem to bring out a nasty edge to people... it's a game mechanic, not the fate of nations. If this thread gets snippy and rude, it can get shut down and ice the topic for a while. :stare:



Both systems are fine, and both systems are entirely optional to use ingame. Neither of them require any particular degree of "intelligence" other than paying attention to the game your are playing - something any gamer should appreciate. My ideal would be to have both options available - vehicle (or critter) transport options, mage guild ports and also, map fast travel for when I only have an hour to play and want to kick out a quest or two in an area I already explored.

I added a multi-mark and recall mod to Morrowind - you know why? The MW fast travel is too limited. I'd played hundreds upon hundreds of hours, I didn't need to keep walking to some tomb in the middle of an ash storm to find yet another quest item, when I had been that way before on the character. That breaks my "immersion" - because it gets old.

For map fast travel, I would love to see a system implemented where it did cost something - such as mana or stamina - so that if you ported yourself to a known explored destination, you drop in depleted of a resource, and better hope there isn't stuff spawning nearby... and of course, ideally there would be a chance of a rough landing, so to speak.

Try to keep a sensible perspective on the topic and keep the tone of the discourse civil.

I'm fine with the Oblivion method as it's good for people with only so much time to play, so half of the game time isn't spent travelling or trying to find transportation. That said, I've no problem with doing that and still allowing people who want to spend money on something similar to silt striders to do so.
Or possibly revamp horses (I'm not a big fan of them in Oblivion, they're a pain to climb down from when being attacked, and they get in the way when you're trying to fight the attacker) so that when you mount your horse, it brings you to a fast travel map.

Trust me I'm not advocating only having OB FT in SK, I want an upgrade, I imagine traveling services (MO), with OB FT tied to mounts for example, with random encounters of course.



So one could say it required preparation, I can see that, still don't find it particularly intelligent though, just "basic" I guess, you even had to do this in OB sometimes. I actually liked what they did in The Shivering Isles, where you had to go there on foot before being able to FT there.



That's what I mean with it being simulated walking (doesn't require cost).



I would like Daggerfalls time dependent system to come back, not because I want it to be a race, it wasn't a race in Daggerfall, you had more than enough time, it just meant that you couldn't take a load of quests and expect everyone to sit around for you, and it meant that you could let a quest timer run out if you just didn't care about it anymore. And it was immersive, no employer is going to wait around for you forever.

You touch on some solutions for morrowinds travel problems which are correct, the funny thing is that they are small implementations which would have made a world of difference, same with OB's system, had OB had random encounters, it would have been much better (although still needing).



Honestly I find that we're are not even near an FPS game with OB, I used 2 hours just fiddling around in the character creation. And in regards to fast travel, I can't exactly see it either, Daggerfall had a fast travelling system that comes closer to resembling OB's system, it being instantaneous, but with consequences (money/time), and I don't think this was a product of FPS players.

The fact of the matters is that people present what they have a problem with, but not how they want it fixed, which means the developer gets to choose without any specific details, this can end up with the easiest solution being taken (OB), it's still a solution, although not the best.



I disagree, it's not about combat, it's about getting to the problem, a lot of my frustrations with Morrowind wasn't that I didn't get to the actions, you only have to walk so far to stumble upon a fight. It was that it took a lot of time before I could even address the problem, sometimes even start solving the problem, when you know what to do, but can't do it because you have to take a lot of detours before you even get to problem, it can get pretty frustrating/boring.

I think a key feature to have in mind is that people preferring OB FT aren't against it being more immersive, they just want to keep the convenience.



I agree. :foodndrink:

Daggerfall style definitely would be interesting.

Good old games, sigh...

Hmmm maybe Oblivion style fast travel to cities only with some sort of transport system, carriages etc to other locations?

I honestly don't understand why we'd want anything other than a combination of the two. Let's get one thing straight: having fast travel in the game takes nothing away from it at all. Not one thing. No, don't try to argue that it does. I agree that immersion is wonderful, but fast travel only breaks immersion if you use it. You are not forced to do so at any time, during any portion of the game, for any reason whatsoever. If you claim otherwise, then in reality you're just being lazy yourself during those times when you chose to use it. There is of course nothing wrong with that, but it is wrong to hypocritically call other people lazy for choosing to use it.

Now, obviously Oblivion had a big problem in that it neglected those of you who thought of fast travel as immersion-breaking and would have preferred something else. Walking is just slow and horses weren't a whole lot better, but if you wanted anything faster, you had to resort to fast travel. That is very obviously an inconsiderate design decision, and that's why I hope Skyrim doesn't make the same mistake. Include something for everybody!

But I don't see why people on that side of the fence can't take the same view towards those who want fast travel. If my play time is limited, I don't want to be forced to spend 30 minutes walking back to the town where my quest started after exploring some Ayleid ruin (or whatever the equivalent will be in Skyrim). If I feel like enjoying the countryside--and I frequently do, if I have the time--then great. But if I need to leave for work in 15 minutes or get to bed or something similar, I'd like to be able to finish up the quest and move on. Not having fast travel robs me of that option.

Having both options is win-win. There is literally no drawback to doing so, so I can only hope that Bethesda won't neglect that option in Skyrim like they did in Oblivion.