Faster Leveling

Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:04 am

That is the base of any RPG with skill and attributes and lvl up.
Bethesda screw it up changing it and now are finishing the screw up the easy way: PERKS
Instead of doing it the right way, because right way demand ressources and above all smart people. Perk only demand a bunch of people, any people.


Because everybody knows artificial headaches are the mark of a truly superior game.
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Megan Stabler
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:18 am

I'm quite sure that I read/heard somewhere that you can pick any perk you want. If it were like you described it could be a source for frustration. Like at one point you would start worrying about using one skill too much because you want a perk for another skill. It's just not practical.


I see your point. Maybe we can meet in the middle and at least have perks be skill level based.
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Darlene DIllow
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:17 am

Being you a "smart person", of course. Because obviously, it's a matter of intelligence to cast 600 minor heal spells. I loved Oblivion. But the levelling system was like... crap, having to micromanage everything. With perks you don't have to worry to be able to have the 5/5/5. I would say it's a good thing...

You are correct. Besides, everyone saying perks are dumb.... You are wrong. They are using perk trees according to Todd:

"Within each of these skills, there are perks. They're perks, but they're not like Fallout, in that each skill has its own perk tree.

Take one handed for instance. You have a one handed skill, and then you can perk that. There's a skill tree underneath one handed. And within that there are separate perk areas for maces, and then axes, and then swords. So as opposed to having say an axe skill, that is a part of the perk tree within one handed. It gives us a better balance. You can say "Well I like one handed stuff," and then you can start specializing as you raise that skill."


I assume by skill tree's he means we won't be able to get the best blade perks unless we specialize in blade and select the other blade perks. You have to go up one limb to get to the top of the tree. Using this method characters who specialize in one-handed can be dramatically different. Just look at WoW. When I played I went down the Subtlety tree from 1-60. Later I made a rogue on a different server except this time I chose the Combat tree. WOW. What a huge difference. Perk tree's are going to allow us to specialize greater than ever before and is far more complex than just have X amount of skills.
Of course that's assuming they are using perk trees like every other game that has perk trees.
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FLYBOYLEAK
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:42 am

I'm quite sure that I read/heard somewhere that you can pick any perk you want. If it were like you described it could be a source for frustration. Like at one point you would start worrying about using one skill too much because you want a perk for another skill. It's just not practical.

There will definitely be prerequs for some perks, same as in Fallout. Certain perks won't unlock until your destruction skill is X level, or your character hits level 25, etc. It would be nonsensical to have hundreds of perks just thrown at you with no progressive unlock system. Prerequs also allow for some perks to be more powerful than others, rather than having everything need to be balanced if it's all available at level 2.
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Amelia Pritchard
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:20 pm

Oblivion leveling was already way too fast in my opinion, and now they want to make it even faster? That I really don't like :cryvaultboy:
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Jessica Colville
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:13 pm

I see your point. Maybe we can meet in the middle and at least have perks be skill level based.

They pretty much always do that, a la Fallout series.
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Mandi Norton
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:24 pm

I dont really care how fast or slow it is. As long as there's something to do no matter what level I'm at I couldn't care less.
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Laura
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:19 pm

Whenever it comes to the speed of leveling, we must consider not just how fast you level, but also how high a level you can get to as well. Whatever qualifies as "too fast" in leveling is reletive to the maximum level in the game. In Fallout 3, I found the leveling speed too fast, same for New Vegas, but in these games, the level cap was 20 (Before Broken Steel), and thirty, respectively, had the level cap been 40 or 50, I might not have minded the leveling speed. It has been stated that in Skyrim, while there's no hard level cap, around level 50 is where most characters will eventually get, whereas in past Elder Scrolls games, the 20s were already a fairly high level, it's about around that point where the game starts to become painfully easy in Morrowind, give or take a few levels depending on how powerful your character is, and in Oblivion, it's around that time that the strongest types of enemies and items start to spawn. It was very rare that I'd keep playing the same character long enough to get up into the 30s, so we're talking about a game where, on average, characters are probably going to finish at a higher level than past Elder Scrolls games, considering this, I think faster leveling is reasonable. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean I'll like the leveling rate in Skyrim, I'll have to play the game to see, but the idea of faster leveling in itself doesn't bother me for this game. In the end, what exactly the ideal leveling rate for any game is depends on how the game is balanced.

I'm quite sure that I read/heard somewhere that you can pick any perk you want. If it were like you described it could be a source for frustration. Like at one point you would start worrying about using one skill too much because you want a perk for another skill. It's just not practical.


And this is also a problem with the way leveling worked in past Elder Scrolls games too. Players were often encouraged to practice or train skills their characters had no use for, in order to get higher multipliers for attributes, of course it wasn't strictly necessary to do that, but not doing so would often create underpowered characters, and in any case, if your gameplay mechanics in a role-playing game actively encourage players to NOT role-play, then it probably means you're doing something wrong. Now, you can argue as much as you want that role-playing requires setting limits for your character, and I won't disagree, but a game that calls itself a role-playing game should try to support such a playstyle where feasible, where it simply can't do so, it should at least not discourage it.

The entire point of letting players choose perks, or attributes, for that matter, upon leveling up, is to allow players to develop their character the way they want, regardless of how they were playing before. Giving players a choice and then limiting their choices when they actually get to the point where they can make them is counter intuitive, and actually encourages players to not role-play because they would be forced to use whatever skill the perk they want to pick belongs to, instead of using whatever skill makes the most sense for their character.

I see your point. Maybe we can meet in the middle and at least have perks be skill level based.


I'd imagine that's already he case considering that perks sort of act like "sub skills" allowing you to specialize further under certain skills, and it makes sense to me. Because I'd have no reason to want to specialize in say, maces if I wasn't planning on focusing on one handed weapons, and that's different from limiting what perks a player can choose based on the skills used in that level as if a perk requires, say, at least level 25 in one handed, then you just need to get it that high, how or when doesn't matter, so players wouldn't feel pressured to increase one handed so many times in this level so they can get that perk the next level, they'd just need to already have a certain level of skill in one handed.
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john palmer
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:40 pm

There will definitely be prerequs for some perks, same as in Fallout. Certain perks won't unlock until your destruction skill is X level, or your character hits level 25, etc. It would be nonsensical to have hundreds of perks just thrown at you with no progressive unlock system. Prerequs also allow for some perks to be more powerful than others, rather than having everything need to be balanced if it's all available at level 2.


Of course not every perk will be available to you from the beginning, that's why they implemented the perk trees.

Now the question remains if the higher perks in the tree will have a skill level or player level requisite or just require you to have selected the perk before it.
Somehow i think it would be overpowered if say from level 1-10 you only select perks for the longsword so by level 10, although all of your other skills are lacking, you could pretty much smoke anyonje with a blade.
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k a t e
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:51 pm

What do you guys think about the comments Todd made in the podcast about the new approach with faster leveling? I haven't seen a discussion on this.

Personally i've always used mods that make leveling slower and extend the length of the game. I just don't like feeling too powerful too quickly. I'm a little concerned that this faster leveling scenario could make my need for such mods pretty great from the get go. On the other hand i suppose it all depends how they handle the power given to the player as he rises through the lower levels.

Wadda you guys think?

What Todd said has me a little worried that I will hit the top way before I even finsih the game.......like Fallout 3. He also said you can go past level 50 but it just goes alot slower and there is technically no level cap. The only thing about this that bothers me is the level scaling of the rest of the world. For instance, I am playing through Oblivion again and I happen to be at level 17 starting the Kvatch quests and there are Deadroth and Spider Deadra all over the place that kill your companions in one hit. Not that I do not like a challenge but I want to be able to explore the world without having to worry about finishing the main quest before every quest I go on all I end up fighting is dragons and mamoths.
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Céline Rémy
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:36 am

What Todd said has me a little worried that I will hit the top way before I even finsih the game.......like Fallout 3. He also said you can go past level 50 but it just goes alot slower and there is technically no level cap. The only thing about this that bothers me is the level scaling of the rest of the world. For instance, I am playing through Oblivion again and I happen to be at level 17 starting the Kvatch quests and there are Deadroth and Spider Deadra all over the place that kill your companions in one hit. Not that I do not like a challenge but I want to be able to explore the world without having to worry about finishing the main quest before every quest I go on all I end up fighting is dragons and mamoths.


I'm sure they will make sure you wont hit the top way before finishing the game. The level ups just happen at a higher frequency. It's going to be a case of increasing quantity and quality.

I'm not sure what to make of the other half of your post, you do realize that there is no possible solution to the problem?
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michael danso
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:39 pm

Surely this depends on how many skill points you get per level up, I think it's limited and the powers in your perks, considering you can keep levelling past 50 but only perk up to 50.
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Dustin Brown
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:23 pm

Surely this depends on how many skill points you get per level up, I think it's limited and the powers in your perks, considering you can keep levelling past 50 but only perk up to 50.


It's more of a case of how many skill points you need to earn before leveling.It's confirmed that the higher the level of the skill you're increasing, the faster your overall level will rise. Add to that the dynamic of faster level-ups earlier in the game and slower leveling towards the end.

The way it's probably solved is that increasing higher level skills will just be slower while they contribute more points to the leveling up progress.
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Dezzeh
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:12 am

Let's take a look at what we know ...
Skills, levels, and perks are intimately connected. Skyrim is going to be different in that skills will be more of a generalization with the specialization provided by the perk trees that we choose. Leveling is done as it is to provide access to an intended number of perks. It all works together - you can't separate leveling from skills from perks.

The second thing that we know is that this is VERY different from MW or Oblivion, where skills WERE the specialization. Is it better or worse? Sounds much better to me as I think the perks will offer ranges of character development not seen in previous TES games ... but I have not played the game ... and neither have you, so we will have to wait to find out.
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Danger Mouse
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:11 am

The only solution is to not specialize on non-combat skills in a game where most of what you do is kill things. Think logically and stop trying to find holes in the system.
It's only natural that if you're a character who diddles around with potions and locks then he should get his ass kicked.


Yep, agreed that non-combat oriented characters should get their arses kicked out in the wilderness. But I hope that they are still attractive character builds because lots of quests can be completed without resorting to violence.
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Marta Wolko
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:42 pm

Yep, agreed that non-combat oriented characters should get their arses kicked out in the wilderness. But I hope that they are still attractive character builds because lots of quests can be completed without resorting to violence.


How do you figure that? TES has always, in my mind, been the epitome of action RPGs and in Oblivion there were only a handful of quests you could finish without resorting to violence.
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how solid
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:10 am

I'm hoping that we will only be able to pick a perk from the most contributing skill for each level up. This way leveling up one-handed skill to gain a level won't allow you to pick an alchemy perk.

It will be like that, but in another form.

Skill perks would require perquisites for us to be able to pick them, so we will have first tier perks and the perks for the next tiers.

The higher level perks would require us to have the lower level perks of the same branch and also each perks would require a minimum level of the related skill as well, so in order to have a high level alchemy perk, you need to have developed your alchemy quite a bit, so in the end you can only get perks for the skills that you develop.

So there is no problem here, and everything is as it should be.
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Lauren Denman
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:38 pm

How do you figure that? TES has always, in my mind, been the epitome of action RPGs and in Oblivion there were only a handful of quests you could finish without resorting to violence.


Sorry, I worded that badly. I meant: I hope that there are a lot of quests you can complete without resorting to violence, which would make non-oriented characters more viable.

But I agree - Bethesda's track record doesn't inspire a lot of confidence.
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Steeeph
 
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