When going back to even older days, things were more like Oblivion. When I play Daggerfall, I look at my map, fast-travel(fast-travel isn't teleportation), kill everything in a truly boring cave, fast-travel back, and repeat. Why go through the trouble of fast-travel to one point, then fast-travel to another point, then fast-travel to another point, walk a boring path, kill everything in a boring cave, walk the boring path in reverse, fast-travel to one point, fast-travel to another point, fast-travel to another point, and repeat?

I never played dagerfall and know next to nothing about. you make a good point though, when put like that my way sounds stupid and boring. I dont know what it is but like I said it felt like more of an adventure to me. It also made the world seem larger.

I think part of it is Morowind was basically my first RPG so I get really nostalgic when I think about "the good ol' days"

You failed to point out it would literally take hours to get from one place to another, never mind two weeks total to travel the map from High Rock to Daggerfall on land. In addition, it cost money, travel time took days and weeks from point A to B (even if it was instant to us), and you could wind up exhausted once you reach your destination if you didn't plan on resting. So comparing DF to OB is not a good comparison, for one NEEDED fast travel (and gave you options of how you wanted to travel, which modes of travel, and if you wanted to stay at an inn or not. All of this also cost money and lots of time, and since most quests in DF had a time limit, this made travel plans something to strongly consider), while OB just magically whisked you here and there, healthy, not a penny spent, and plenty of goofing off in a land that takes an hour to get across the whole continent, as opposed to an hour just to get to the nearest insignificant place with a hundred other insignificant towns dotted all around.

The planning of one's trip is pretty cool and I know what you mean by that adventure feeling, but Oblivion's style of fast-travel gets picked on(not by you) as if it is a new thing, but it isn't. I'm not sure why this whole debate is a debate. Fast-travel really isn't that big of a deal, seeing as, when it comes down to mechanics, there really is nothing special about either type of fast-travel. I understand what you are getting at, though.

Pointing that out sounds like a plus for Oblivion's system and a minus to Daggerfall's system, to me. Oblivion's system actually is optional because travelling in real-time isn't nearly as tedious as it is in Daggerfall, but it is quite quick, especially if so many people have characters that are as fast as they claim they are. Daggerfall really forces one to fast-travel. Also, I'm not sure if you experience this or not, but staying at inn and using ships literally costs nothing for me. I'm not sure if it's a bug or if it has to do with my faction providing free rooms at inns(I'm not sure if fast-travel involves this in its calculation), but I never have to pay money to fast-travel. If I still did, it wouldn't matter anyways because making the money to pay for it is quite easy, because, as I said, it is essential to the game. Travelling from Daggerfall to the Alik'r desert while staying at inn, moving cautiously, and using a ship doesn't cost me anything at all, and it has been this way since I joined the knightly order I joined at level 2, right out of Privateer's Hold. Anyway, one can still fast-travel for free, without joining any factions, because all the person loses is extra time(well, not really, since time has no effect on anything besides active quests) and some health. If they are on an active quest, then the money they make will easily pay for any money spent on taking faster options. Daggerfall's fast--travel is like Oblivion's, except in Daggerfall, I really can fast-travel anywhere without discovering. The neccessity of this system only makes Daggerfall's system look worse. I've never had any trouble fast-traveling in Daggerfall at all. My settings are already set in a permanent position and I fadt-travel just like I do in Oblivion, without a care in the world or any evidence of my trip.

That's what the console is for? It teleports you..

There are some things about Oblivion's fast travel system that simply bug me, and there are other things that do not make a whole lot of sense.

For example:

Is fast travel supposed to represent walking, running, or riding your horse?

If it is supposed to represent walking, then does it take into account all of the encounters you would normally have with wildlife and bandits while traversing the countryside by foot? Does it take into account the potions needed and/or the magicka used to heal oneself from any of the aforementioned encounters? If it is supposed to represent running, then assuming you are fast enough to outrun any and all enemies you would have inevitably come across had you not fast traveled, is there any cost to fatigue? Also, is the travel time calculated by drawing a straight line from the player's current position to the player's ending position (which is not always a possibility), or is the travel time calculated assuming that the player is following established roads? Lastly, if fast travel is supposed to represent traveling by horseback, then why is it not entirely necessary to have your horse nearby in order to fast travel?

Assuming I can ignore some of the inconsistencies mentioned above and can suspend disbelief enough to pass fast travel off as walking/running/riding, then how is it possible for me to carry 1000+ weight units worth of loot from Bruma to the Imperial City whilst only having a few potions of feather and no other strength/feather spells? Wouldn't the potions wear off long before I even got close to my destination?

Finally, being that Cyrodiil is basically the political and mercantile center of the empire, and is supposed to be one of the largest provinces to boot, why wouldn't other travel services exist? Even though your character might not have a problem hoofing it all over the map, I highly doubt that everyone else in Cyrodiil would be inclined to do the same.

At any rate, these are just a few of the questions that nag at the back of my mind when fast traveling in Oblivion.

On a side note: Though I can see some similarities between Oblivion's fast travel system and Daggerfall's, I don't think you can really compare the two because the similarities are only superficial. They both had a map where you could click on a destination and fast travel to it. Time passed in-game. Besides that, there aren't any other similarities that I can think of. The thing is, Daggerfall's fast travel system was necessary because of the sheer size of the gameworld. You could literally spend days in real time walking from one place to another. The same is not true for Oblivion. Also, Daggerfall's system had costs and consequences associated with (fast) traveling. Quests had time limits. Traveling recklessly meant that you might arrive at your destination with lowered health and fatigue, whereas staying at inns would cost you money. Oblivion had absolutely none of that. I think that people, in general, don't have a problem with fast travel as a game mechanic in and of itself. But rather, many who had experience fast travel from previous games had a problem with the way fast travel was implemented in Oblivion.

Ok, now, look at the rest of your post:


These are only some of the arguments against Fast Travel. People who dislike fast travel state the reasons for there not to be a fast travel function, and come up with some kind of comprimise.

Those all for Oblivion's fast travel simply say: I don't like taking a long time. Don't use it if you don't want to.






NO I'M NOT!! Exactly What I said:

"That is why. I'm tired to hell of explaining the downside of Oblivion fast travel to idiots who say I have a choice."

In no place in that entire sentence did I say "Everyone uses fast travel" I have said, that I don't like explaining how Oblivion's fast travel ruins certain aspects of the game, to those who tell me that I have a choice.

Seriously... Stop putting words in my mouth... :rolleyes:


Oh, I get you now. So, because you want to use fast travel, everyone else has to? Ok, I get it now... <_<

This is what I mean by Those for Oblivion's fast travel system will never come to some kind of comprimise. I've came up with some myself, yet all I get from you guys is: Don't use it if you don't want to.



The most sensical answer I've ever had is: You can mod it in.

The problem with Oblivion's fast travel, isn't entirely the fast travel, but what it does to the game world. If you where to give us the Morrowind Fast Travel, and let Oblivion's fast travel be modded in, it would make more people happy.

There's nothing wrong with Morrowind's fast travel system, apart from the time it takes for you, right? Morrowind's fast travel only makes the world more diverse and unique, which is what we want.

So those who say they have a choice not to fast travel, you're saying they don't and calling them idiots? (unless I read this wrong too)

So if they don't have a choice then to me it's like saying they fast travel. What ever though, I don't feel like arguing and you don't like to explain.

I voted yes, even though I don't use it. It wasn't as though it was absolutely necessary to use it in Oblivion, the game was still playable whether you used it or not. Options similar to Morrowind would be nice to bring back, now that I think of it.

What I would like is to be rewarded for traveling on foot with something other than more skill ups and junk to sell for money that I already have too much of. Maybe come across something special that you may otherwise never see.

uh yes but it's 10 times more inconvenient, having to manually remember and input countless numbers of coordinates rather than just clicking an icon

In Oblivion, if you ride your horse, before fast-travelling, and arrive at your destination on your horse, you rode it. As for the running/walking part, Daggerfall doesn't distinguish between the two either. It only distinguishes between horse/on foot as much as Oblivion does. Also, why do I have a wagon that allows me to carry 1000+ weight of stuff in Daggerfall? Why can I use the wagon, even if I'm not riding on the horse pulling it and even though I can't see it? Why is my horse in my pocket? In Oblivion, time moves by more quickly when on your horse during fast-travel, so the game does take that into acoount. As I said before, I don't experience any difficulty when fast-travelling in Daggerfall. Taking the best options(ship, inns, cautiously), the game doesn't charge me anything and I get to my targeted location without a scratch and long before half any quest timer requires me to. I haven't had to pay for inns since level 2. Ships don't cost money for some reason either. There are no other options but fast-travel. It is just like Oblivion's from a very early point in each of my games. Fast-travelling to the Alik'r Desert from Daggerfall, then to Orsinium, then to Daggerfall again, by ship, by using inns, and by travelling cautiously, I don't pay anything, I get to my location quickly, and I arrive with full health and no loss to my fatigue. Also, I don't discover places before fast-travelling at all. I know it's neccessary, but that's why it is even worse than Oblivion's system, because it actually isn't optional. So, while it can be argued that it isn't the same as Oblivion's style of fast-travel, it actually is. If I need to further support the claim of it's been done before Morrowind some more, Arena's system is even more like Oblivion's system. Anyway, If I travel on my black horse in real-time in Oblivion, anyway, nothing can catch me and I don't lose fatigue. If I stop an fight, I heal afterwards and my magicka quickly regenerates. Along the way, I can actually stop at inns if I want. If I try to travel in real-time in Daggerfall, I lose my patience as any complaint about boring scenery or needed fast-travel in Oblivion is actually true for Daggerfall, and Arena.

Bethesda merely went back to trying to replicate their older style of fast-travel in Oblivion. I remember watching a video(or maybe I was reading written, I can't remember) in which that was stated by one of Bethesda's developers. Why not expand on that idea? I would love to see Daggerfall's options back in TES V, but it really would just feel like Oblivion's system after one finds their favored options.

You know? This argument (because that is all it has become, an argument loaded with name-calling and finger pointing and abunch of shouting) is old.

Will I FT in TES5 if it is in? Maybe only once in a while when I don't feel like running or riding from one end of the map to the other just to talk to an NPC who is going to send be all the way back across the map for my next quest. Or, maybe after I grow tired of looking at the same scenery over and over again and want to just cut to the chase. I like immersion, but for games it is only cool for just so long. Then I might as well be commuting to work. I long for the day when human technology reaches the point where we can just beam from point to point. Talk about solving the problem with gas prices. The day we no longer need cars is the day we no longer need to worry about it. Oh... but then they'll probably charge an arm and two legs for the beaming service.

This argument is a stupid non-issue. The end user is going to play the game however he bloody well feels like it. That's what Bethesda has wanted for TES3, TES4 and FO3. I doubt their stance will change for TES5. I would rather you anti-FTers play the game and elect not to use FT than have players just stop playing for the lack of the ability to get around quickly. Games are supposed to be fun. And whether some of us like it or not, The Elder Scrolls is just a series of GAMES. Awesome game, but games none the less. And the minute a game ceases to be fun, people stop playing.

My sister, who introduced me to The Elder Scrolls: Arena, and who has played and loved every TES game since (with the exception of Oblivion because she wasn't going to speend money on another console or a new computer due to higher priorities than games) complained to no end about how much walking she had to do in Morrowind, and actually said that if she had to do the same thing in Oblivion, she didn't know if she wanted to EVER play it. I told her that it had fast travel and as long as you had been to a location just once, you can pop back to it at any time. And her response was a resounding "Thank god!" And before anyone says anything, no, she is not one of the instant gratification crowd. She loves an immersive gameplay experience. However she cannot stand a monotonous gameplay experience.

So I am all for having all travel markers disabled at the start, so we really do have to visit every place just once before we can just pop back and forth all over the place. And I wouldn't mind it so terribly if unvisited travel markers disable themselves after a while, like the contents of containers reset after a while. It would make sense that places off the beaten path might become dangerous to reach again after a time.

You don't need coordinates... simply type the name of the location you want to go to and voila.

Also, I use a pen and paper whenever modding, that way I don't have to remember things like coordinates, they are written down. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I can agree with your first point, and to a certain extent, your last point, but I can't bring myself to agree with your 'definition' of fast travel. In my humble opinion, fast travel could be classified as any game mechanic that allows the player to move his character from point A to point B without having to watch/experience the journey in real time. Under this 'definition', scrolls, spells, enchantments, potions (of Mark/Recall), guild teleportation and propylon indices would all count as methods of fast travel. This is in addition to silt striders, boats, and the systems used by Daggerfall and Oblivion.

Daggerfall had fast travel. Someone even argued that Morrowind shouldn't have abandoned it.

But my answer is that "Morrowind replaced it with a working system! In Daggerfall scale it was a must, but in tiny Morrowind the silt striders, boats, mark/recall, scrolls and propylons were actually a brilliant system.

Then for Oblivion they merged a tiny world with a fast travel system that would better fit a huge world like Daggerfall's. And THEN they dumbed down the whole fast travel system to be an instant teleportation/almost a cheat. AND they even used it in Fallout 3!!! I mean wtf? "

Taken from fast travel thread last year.

There's a better solution to this whole thing: Beth should make it so that TESV does not make you cross the entire map for almost every quest. Someone made the point once that it seemed stupid that the fighters' guild in chorrol was sending you to some cave next to anvil...why didn't the anvil fighters' guild have that quest?

If quests were plotted a little more intelligently, the fast travel discussion would be much less of a debate. I'm not saying don't ever tell the player to go to the other sides of the world; that gives you a chance to explore somewhere new. But most quests should hit home with the people who give them, and not send you all over east bumf*** to complete them. Then, having the MW and the OB fast travel systems would not be bad for anyone, as those who want immersion can use the MW style, and those who favor a quicker route can use the OB style.

There are times when I don't want to spend an hour going from Anvil to Leyawiin and fighting another twenty brown bears or Khajiit bandits on the way there. If I want to explore, I explore. If I want to just go from Point A to Point B and not have to spend an afternoon doing it, I'll use the fast travel option. I personally like the option of having fast travel there if I "need" it. To me, its a game. I don't want to walk every where I go. I don't want my character to have to eat three meals a day, use the bathroom and sleep six hours at night. I game to get away from all of that, and spend my time killing goblins. In my opinion the argument that its not realisitic to have fast travel or immersion breaking if you use it is moot. Its not realistic to throw fireballs and it breaks "immersion" every time I see a Khajiit or argonian.

In short, its optional. If you want to fast travel then do it. If you hate it, then don't use it. I personally don't see why this keeps getting argued over so many times. I do agree that it may have been a little bit better implemented than it was in Oblivion. But, I still prefer Oblivion's method of fast travel to not having it available at all.

In Oblivion, if you ride your horse, before fast-travelling, and arrive at your destination on your horse, you rode it.

Ok, then that is one part of the fast travel system that makes some sense. But I am curious to know if you've tested riding vs. walking to see if they take the same amount of time, or if riding is actually faster.

As for the running/walking part, Daggerfall doesn't distinguish between the two either. It only distinguishes between horse/on foot as much as Oblivion does.

:facepalm:
This is when the debate starts degenerating. First, Daggerfall distinguishes between traveling cautiosly and traveling recklessly, which could be interpreted as walking vs. running, among other things. Second, you are trying to justify Oblivion's flaws by emphasizing flaws in other systems to bolster an otherwise shallow argument. Please avoid doing that. Otherwise the debate becomes nothing more than a circular Oblivion vs. Morrowind vs. Daggerfall vs. Arena argument.



Also, why do I have a wagon that allows me to carry 1000+ weight of stuff in Daggerfall? Why can I use the wagon, even if I'm not riding on the horse pulling it and even though I can't see it? Why is my horse in my pocket? In Oblivion, time moves by more quickly when on your horse during fast-travel, so the game does take that into acoount.

I would assume that you are able to carry so much weight on a wagon because, basically, that is what they were designed for -- transporting heavy loads. The fact that the designers took into account that players would like to cart their hard-won loot across the province is a plus in my book. To address the second question, I would assume that you are leading your horse and wagon rather than riding on it. The fact that you can't see the wagon is simply a poor design choice or an oversight. Same goes for being able to 'carry' your horse in your inventory. However, you have to take into account that Daggerfall is 10 years older than Oblivion, and that there may have been a technical limitation or two that prevented them from doing things as they were able to do them in Oblivion. But none of that addresses the issue of over-encumberance in Oblivion's fast travel system, so really, the question has been skirted by justifying Oblivion's shortcomings through scapegoating some other game in the series.

As I said before, I don't experience any difficulty when fast-travelling in Daggerfall. Taking the best options(ship, inns, cautiously), the game doesn't charge me anything and I get to my targeted location without a scratch and long before half any quest timer requires me to. I haven't had to pay for inns since level 2. Ships don't cost money for some reason either. There are no other options but fast-travel. *snip*

That's odd, because I do get charged money if I stay at inns. Also, when I arrive at my destination, my health and fatigue are usually lower than when I started my journey. I can agree with the last part, though. It would have been nice to have a mage's guild teleportation network, teleportation spells, interventions scrolls, etc.

The thing is, I think people can more easily digest Daggerfall's fast travel system because there were costs and/or consequences to traveling a certain way, despite whatever is said to the contrary. Quests had time limits. Traveling could cost you money. You might become hurt or tired on your way from one town to the next. Again, this is all dancing around the issue. I don't think that pointing to the flaws in another game in the series is a good way to support your argument for why it was done in a game that came later in the series.


It is just like Oblivion's from a very early point in each of my games. Fast-travelling to the Alik'r Desert from Daggerfall, then to Orsinium, then to Daggerfall again, by ship, by using inns, and by travelling cautiously, I don't pay anything, I get to my location quickly, and I arrive with full health and no loss to my fatigue. Also, I don't discover places before fast-travelling at all. I know it's neccessary, but that's why it is even worse than Oblivion's system, because it actually isn't optional.

I would argue that Oblivion's system is only optional in the most basic of terms. It is optional in the same way as choosing between driving or walking the 10 miles it takes me to get to work every day. Walking would still get me to my destination, but it would be long, tiresome and inconvenient.

Bethesda merely went back to trying to replicate their older style of fast-travel in Oblivion. I remember watching a video(or maybe I was reading written, I can't remember) in which that was stated by one of Bethesda's developers. Why not expand on that idea? I would love to see Daggerfall's options back in TES V, but it really would just feel like Oblivion's system after one finds their favored options.

Exactly, why NOT expand on Oblivion's fast travel system? Although I would prefer a travel network similar to Morrowind's system, I could live with a system like Oblivion's if they would just flesh it out more. Had they added a pay-for-service carriage system, or given quests a time limit, or put some minor limitations on fast travel (such as only being able to fast travel with a horse on known roads to destinations you've already been to), then I think it wouldn't have been such a bitter pill to swallow and we'd be reading fewer complaints.

doesn't matter. it's still incredibly helpful. what if you're RPing and the game crashes? you gonna start over again or just teleport to where you were at last?

First off, I would just like to say that certain people, arguing for certain sides, are saying certain arguments very rudely. I'm reading arguments that I truly agree with, but I want to disagree with simply because the way they were said was extremely unconstructive and seems like you're saying that it's either Bethesda does it your way, or the game will turn out horrrible. Acting like an ass probably isn't helping your argument that much.

Second, I'm seeing posts saying a straight up compromise, putting in insta-travel and MW travel is the solution. In theory, a compromise is what is needed, but it will have to be a middle ground, or a piece of ground way of the the side. It really doesn't make sense to have insta-travel AND MW travel. Imagine you're a first-time TES player. And you discover the two options of travelling. You can PAY to slowly get to where you want to go, or you can instantly get to your destination with no consequences. You would probably think that it was a huge oversight, that Bethesda accidently put in two systems. Both sides have their merits though.
For insta-travel, I also sometimes feel like walking over the same ground over and over can be quite tedious.
For MW travel, I feel that it has way more roleplaying elements.

Overall, I think that MW was better than the OB system, purely because it just felt right. Perhaps, though, it can be improved upon by spreading travel-ports more evenly throughout the gameworld, so the most you would ever have to travel is a few in-game miles. But I think that for everyone to be equally happy or unhappy, Bethesda will have to implement a completely new travel system, different from DF, MW, or OB.

Perhaps this should become more of a suggestion thread, rather than a debate thread?

I think that if(or when) the TES: V is released, fast travel will return, and more thanm likely the way fallout's is. There was more than enough time in between for bethesda to read all the flaming of the new fast travel system between releasing Oblivion and Fallout 3, but fast travel was seen in the same fashion, just changed slightly, in fallout 3. they may change it a little bit like it did from Oblivion to fallout where there are no markers in Fallout and a ton of already found markers in oblivion. I do expect fully to see an oblivion type fast travel in TES: V though. i'd imagine bethesda will implement some other type of travel system like morrowinds, that will have benefits over regular fast travel though, such as being able to go to places that havent been discovered yet or places that have no markers.

I agree, except that the possibility of having both MW and OB fast travel styles is definitely possible. Make is so that the same amount of in-game time passes if you fast travel as if you had to walk to a travel location, took the appropriate travel routes, and walked to you final destination from the last travel location. Make it so that the monetary amount to fast travel is that same as well (it shouldn't be that expensive to take the public transportation of the world). This gives the immersion folk their fast, more believable way of traveling in-game, and the people who don't have much time and would just like to knock out a couple quests can also do so without a problem. Just make plenty of travel locations and make the major cities travel hubs to travel between each other.

I think a good solution that could please everyone or at least most people, would be to have a "hardcoe mode" similar Fallout: New Vegas that would take fast travel into account.

The Elder Scrolls V should have some form of fast travel, but a very limited form compared to Oblivion. You should have to actually pay an NPC or organization in the game world to take you to your destination, and this should only be available from specific locations (like cities).