"Empathetic human being" I get what you are saying. Full range of human emotion and behaviours, within in a group that believes they are the only human beings left in the world.

There are cases where being an empathetic human being applied to wastelanders. I would include Augustus as one example along with the scientist in Fallout 2.

I agree many in the Enclave would be upset their families died. Which would explain why some stayed at Navarro to fight. Why others went to DC. It would also explain why some just gave up, having lost everything or are trying to save what they have left.

That's what I mean, I never meant to suggest that abaord the ENCLAVE that the stiff, vapid citizens actually acted like that to each other. They probably have a decent time, shooting pool, maybe they play baseball, Vaults somehow seem to be able too; hell they even have it better than Vault City whom don't have recreational six or any real leisure centers. It's just that Fallout 2 was obviously constrained by technology of the time and Bethesda didn't see anything outside of laboratories, armouries and such as important; there were 8 beds in Raven Rock!

Unfortunately the main spectrum of the Enclave as people can only exist in the imaginations of us because we would never be able to see them; at least for the Enclave citizens we've so far seen. Just because the emotions and beliefs may have been the result of propaganda doesn't mean the people don't believe them; imagine being in such a small, patriotic community and then being told that literally everything is gone.

To me Augusts is a person dealing with personal conflicts. He believes in the Enclave. He believes in America. He believe in order, but maybe he believes that the people of the wasteland are just as human as he is. Eden being free of human emotion is going with the old plan of "kill them all," only on a much smaller scale.

I could see Augustus leading the remnants to Chicago and making some alliance with the MWBoS under Barnaky. Sure they will not be the Enclave anymore but really most of us including you agree they are dead as a Faction.

I don't want to see the MWBoS as a pathedic group outside of Chicago. Others don't want to see the Enclave completely gone. The two area known to be in Chicago. There is scenario where the two can be together and not just be another BoS vs Enclave, "good vs evil."

It would be great to see the BoS with darker goals and Enclave (remnants) not trying to "kill all humans."

Over all I would be happy with just the Barnaky MWBoS but Obsidian said Enclave are in Chicago.

I would personally be happy if they just fled Chicago for a Vault.

Still the BoS are in the area as well. It would be hard for me to believe that after 80 years they had not found every vault, bunker, basemant and tunnel in the area. For Enclave to just show up and make an outpost without them knowing some new kids are in the area with fancy toys.

Like I said before, the BoS in the area would not know about the Enclave but they would be very intrested in Vertibirds and plasma weapons. They would not just ingore that group. Enclave came to DC, what 35 or so years before Fallout 3? So its a safe guess they have been in Chicago for 30 or so years. I doubt they could stay hidden for that long. Unless the Bos there are just a pathetic group of no nothings and that would svck IMO.

Somewhere in between 30 & 35 years yeah. They stayed in the D.C. area for an equal amount of time and never got detected, I know that the circumstances are different but the Enclave are capable of spending massive amounts of time underground and in hiding. But the MWBoS could be quite powerful so who knows.

Well their only presence in the Capital Wasteland was military with a slight amount of scientific researchers, this information coupled with their vast army (for a crippled government) leads me to believe that they "upgraded" an isolated control Vault or successful experiment Vault to full Enclave citizen status. This would explain their seemingly limitless supply of power armour, robots, vehicles, weaponry and manpower. This would lead me to believe that any sort of civilian government would be based in this locatation along with the ordinary Enclave populace in lovely matching jumpsuits.
After their unsuccessful war with the Brotherhood, I would guess that their newly elected leaders would have to seek a truce of sorts - anything that prevents them from becoming pantomime villains.

But the and he is leader is Eden in Raven Rock; and it wouldn't really explain anything other than their decent sized military. Raven Rock only has seven beds and we only see the military section, most of the civilians could exist elsewhere in the facility as we do see a long corridor on the first floor but the door closes before you can reach it.

I understand this but it would render the plot of Broken Steel (more) impossible as the Enclave would have to relocate their entire being (military, civilians, manufacturing equipment etc.) to Adams Air Force Base only to be completely destroyed by one former Vault-dweller and his Supermutant. I understand that it would be logical for Eden to "live" in the Enclave "Capital" but the strange dystopian manner in which the Enclave operates would allow the civilian members of the Enclave to follow him unquestionably - regardless of his whereabouts.

Broken Steel states "Finish the Enclave threat once and for all." Brotherhood also talk about mopping up the remnants.

The Enclave in Fallout 3 had Raven Rock and later AFB, both gone. Chicago is all that is left.

The military is dead and gone - that much is clear. But the army had to come from somewhere, and I think that there is a poor isolated (yet technologically unstoppable) community out there with few surviving men and many many widows. More or less remnants, but remnants with a large stockpile of rare power armours and democracy.

Man, cant a faction just be dead?

I admit there are some Enclave members left, but they could no truly be the Enclave anymore. Peoples values change, maybe they dont really believe in the 'Enclave" Ideals, they have lost all their power, etc...

The onyl real way I could see anything happen besides magic, and by that I mean them being in another part of the country adn buildign strength and then boom, is by basically becoming part of the Barnaky MWBoS. :biggrin:

Now I am not an expert, but they ahve basically been thouroghly(sp.) destroyed multiple times now.

Or simply that all of the manufacturing ability and civilians were destroyed and killed. Well Eden's ZAX unit is located in Raven Rock, and he makes it clear that he gained sentience there and is still there.

Enclave have Democracy? :blink:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHGRcdq0x9A&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIh0jizPP6c&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=OXKBzIQgH5k#t=110s

Since the creation of the US Constitution I think...

You know what our justification for Eden's Presidency is Styles. The lack of elections during his reign I personally put down to his own greed and desire to LARP at being a real President and, in particular, Richardson; elections were present up until 2242, where Richardson made a note at the foot of one of his holotape to plug for re-election again.

Is it Democracy when you only have one person to vote for? Granted we know so little about the Enclave election system. We don't know if they have two parties. Still, they did away with term limits. Eden only became president because their was no one else.

Your right we don't, there probably were no parties; rather individuals. Eden gained control because, yes, there was no one else but more than likely because he was on Richardson's Cabinet, otherwise he would have no legal authority.

Also on note of Richardson's VP, there have been times in the US when there was no VP for years due to various complications. With Eden presumably not holding elections because of a State of National Emergency or whatever he reason; I personally believe it was more because, we know that he wasn't Richardson's VP, therefore, if he posted someone to the Office of Vice President, then that VP would be able to challenge Eden's claim to Acting President, I think I'm not to sure on this one but it fits my profile of the mad bastard so I roll with it.

Eden could have a Cabinet though, Autumn could be the Defense and the other positions whatever.

Fallout 3 makes no mention of Eden's cabinet or VP. Just have to go with what we see, he had none. My understanding with Vice presidents is that they did not start having them until they realised assassination is a very real threat to a president. Starting with Abraham Lincoln, James Garfield, William McKinley and JFK.

Like much with the Enclave, I don't see their verson of Democracy as Democracy. Sure it can be supported with http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u9JAt6gFqM

No we don't, it's called rational speculation; in fact it's what we've been doing for several hours now. I really don't see why the Enclave can't be honestly democratic, because thery're bad right? Richardson, in his own personal, un-finished speech that he was writing, reminds himself to plug for election; therefore, I take it that they have free elections.

Quick clarification: Eden would not be acting President as that refers to a vice-president (or other cabinet member) who assumes authority when the President is incapacitated (but still alive). Eden, since Richardson and the rest of the Presidential line are very much dead, has now become the official President.

As to his long term of office, its certainly not necessarily democracy, but in a state of emergency, democracy is shoved aside in favor of national security (we can see that in the real world as well). The 22nd Amendment has presumably been suspended (which Eden, with his broad emergency powers enacted, and no congresss or supreme court to counter him, would be perfectly justified in doing).

Also, any VP he appointed would not be able to challenge his Presidency, I believe earlier you posted a quote that refers to the ability of Congress to appoint a Speaker of the House or President Pro tempore of the Senate who could then challenge a cabinent member President's authority to rule, however, since Congress no longer exists (and this would be the only government body capable of doing this) this rule cannot apply to Eden, nor does it apply to any of his own cabinent that he appoints.

Thank you for the clarification; however, I still say that Eden kept up the Emergency Powers for false pretenses, that he wanted to make all of the fancy speeches and be the progenitor of America's revival. He's a machine after-all, aside from not being switched off he has no real needs, everything he does must be for the benefit or detriment to others; I just think that he got too hooked on all the old US material and maybe subconciously made-up for the fact that he was sentient but couldn't enjoy the benefits of it by engaging in some power-trip.

Also, when it came to Congress I assumed that it meant that as an example in reference to removing an Acting President from Cabinet level, ie, it said Speaker of the House because that is further up the succession chain than any Cabinet member, by that I gather then that a VP, as directly next in line, would be able to do the same. But I trust your research.

You are right it is rational speculation. I don't know if Richardson won his extra terms by having an election. I don't see them as bad. I don't hate the Enclave. To me they are a shadow government that let the rest of America and the government die. Some how they knew but chose to save themselves. They justify their actions as using constitutional emergency powers. The emergency was back in 2077. Seems to me that they got that power by selling out America for their own radical beliefs. Using powers that I believe in spirt were never meant to be permanent, and are holding on to it.

I actually found the http://www.continuityofgovernment.org/SecondReport.pdf which is what I'm going off of (makes it a bit clearer than the wikipedia statement and is some really interesting stuff).

Basically, I think issue with the replacement by Congress is due to the House and Senate's status as a seperate branch of government which is able to challenge the authority of the executive branch. Part of the problem the congressional commission that wrote this had with the provision that allowed for a cabinent President to be displaced by Congress, was it allowed Congress to "threaten" the President with replacement, and therefore have undue leverage over the executive branch. But as they state, the problem only applies to Congress and "congressional leaders". The executive branch can't displace itself in other words.



I suppose that's true, the one flaw I find with Eden was that he perhaps did want to "play" president a bit too much. I still am unable to fully reason and explain why he gave speeches to the wastelanders via radio.

Still though, we got his great charismatic speeches as a result, so I can't complain too much.

Styles, do you agree that secondary sources are canon, ie, developer quotes, official sources etc. Usually with the rule that it is canon provided it is acknowledged by Bethesda as such and doesn't contradict in-game infomation?