Why? Because it makes no mention of it? Where in the name of God would there even be a place to mention it in all of Richardson's dialouge; just because we didn't find a holotape map of evry Enclave location or a total census of the entire population doesn't invalidate his existance, you know what didn't exist in Fallout, the Vault Experiments, yet they retconned them in. There were no physical people there so there was no need to mention it when he was talking about the vaccination; it makes perfect sense, satilite communications have clearly survived (F3) therefore I see no reason why they couldn't communicate. Eden could have in contact with the ENCALVE well before Richardson, they could have used his knowledge and machine-like infalibility to write a series of water-tight Ammendments to the US Constitution, they could have used him as a general data cruncher. Tell me why it goes against canon; in fact it fixes it, having Eden become President through legitimate channels such as the Succession make more damn sense than a military officer just saying, "Okay your smart, would you like to be the President?"

EDIT: The Shi aren't a proper government, the President of the United States cannot be so simply chosen; him being a ZAX has nothing to do with it, that's the point.

You said that Augustus was the only one that had the privilege to talk to Eden. To me it is very logical for Eden and Augusts to have made up the story about Eden being a memeber of Richardson's cabinet. Eden knows everything about America. Richardson not wanting to be president let Eden become president. Using the story about Eden and Richardson knowing one another to make the others happy. Why no one in 30-35 years never asked to see Eden is beyond me.

I think it is very logical that its all a lie that Eden and Augustus came up with. It would not be the first time a government lied to its people. Hell they lied about Eden being human. Augustus going by an order by Richardson to find a ZAXs super-computer and then finging one that wants to be president. Agustus could have thought "this must be what Richardson wants."

All this makes more sense then to just pulling out the crap about Eden being an active Enclave memeber and a memebr of Richardsons Government.

Agustus Jr. Could have uncovered this lie and could have added to his reasons for rebelling.

"The bigger the lie, the more people will believe it."

Now come on styles thats an unfair arguement to make, there is no mention of Eden or Raven Rock because the ideas for those two developments were not thought up till later.

In game though, why would Richardson tell you about Eden? Just because he nor anyone else does not mention Eden does not mean that they were not in contact, nor does it "go against canon". Presumably, very few would have know about Eden and Raven Rock.



Because Autumn senior would have no authority to do such a thing. He can't just hand over the presidency.

Colonel Autumn mentions that President Eden rightfully took command when Richardson was killed, this is the "chain of command" that he refers to. He makes absolutely no mention about his father just "handing" Eden the presidency (which you would think, along with telling his son that the President is a computer, Autumn Sr. would have made mention of).



And to me it makes more sense if Eden was a member of Richardson's cabinet, or at the very least a Presidential advisor. It helps explain why Autumn Sr. and Colonel Autumn stayed loyal to Eden (well until Autumn decided to do his own thing, and even then he recognizes Eden's legitimacy as President).

I don't understand this part, nor in fact your heated opposition to the idea that Eden simply became President through government protocol.



Again, why is it crap? There is no confirmed date of his sentience and satilite communications exist.

EDIT: Yeah the "Chain of Command" line is in the context of the LW saying something about taking orders from a machine.

I don't quite understand this. Why does it make more sense? Makes a lot less sense to me if he wasn't.



Except for the fact that he still fervently believes in Eden's authority and that he is following the President's orders.

Does not matter about authority. Some how Augustus was the leader and the only one to see Eden. Some how no one asked to see Eden or carried to see him. Alot of things in Fallout 3 make little sense. I don't see anything against Eden and Augustus making it all up. Seems to me no one questions anything in the Enclave (Fallout 3) so its not illogical to believe it could all just be a lie. A secret oginiasation that sold out America let hundreds of millions die. Let the rest of America's government die.People behind the vaults. A people with a fication on pure blood humans and killing off those unfit, are above such a thing as a lie?

As I already quated "The bigger the lie the more people will believe it." Fitting it comes from a man with the same ideas as the Enclave.



Except for the fact he did rebel. Thanks Bethesda for your piss poor writing :thumbsup:

They do however, seem to have the ability to contact Eden directly on a regular basis.

There is a certain Lt. Williams who contacts the President directly to ask about the LW's release from his cell (he's the guy who orders you to "stop and get back in that cell" when Eden releases you and invites you to come see him).

While it doesn't fully explain why no-one wanted to see Eden, there were not without contact to him. Also I imagine that part of the reasoning could have been "tightend security measures" as the last President was assassinated by a tribal who inflitrated the Oil Rig.



Agreed that its not good writing, but it still remains that Autumn doesn't believe he rebelled and still is loyal to Eden (even though for all intents and purposes he did) and so the explanation that he rebelled because he "found out the President is not legitimate" does not hold water.

I don't see a thing against Eden simply being a member of the former administration. It also insn't a fixation, only F3 propagated such nonsense.

So it comes down to "don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain."



Knowing about Raven Rock and all its resouces means the Enclave could have taken back America long before Fallout 2. Yet they sat on their ass for 164 years :thumbsup: No mention of Raven Rock in any Enclave Records of Fallout 2.

Just propaganda? So their plan in Fallout 2 would not have killed very human in World and their plan in Fallout 3 would not have killed everything in DC? So what was it? FEV pine air freshener?

Again, there isn't a single opertunity to do so, and what's in Raven Rock that's so valuable, it's a military cache at best; the Enclave were in no way short of supplies and in fact manufactured a [censored]-tonne of power armour from the ENCLAVE, when their plan revolves around killing everything through science and the wind some extra Vertibirds aren't really going to help. Their is no reason to dispute the Project's effectivenes, Richardson himself believed it and it has been developed since 2170's when they uncovered the Maripose Base.

I don't personally like the fact that they were not privy to Eden's "secret".

I like to think that they were fully aware of his status as a ZAX.



They had everything they needed on the Rig, going to Raven Rock in order to "take back" America would have done absolutely nothing, it would have helped in no way.

Their plan was to deploy a virus from the rig and were moments away from doing so when they were blown up, why would they even need to think about going to Raven Rock unless they absolutely had to?

Again, just because there is no mention of Eden or Raven Rock in Fallout 2 (a game that came before 3) does not mean that they had no contact (Eden mentions that he "watched" the remnants of the government flee to the west coast in the years following the war, how would he "watch" them post-war if he had no contact?). Would you prefer it if Bethesda went back and changed a few lines in Fallout 2 to make it so?

i think the Enclave is in controll of all of alaska and canada. they have the base in chicago for protection and they can c what brotherhood is doing.

Where did you hear that?

The thing is their plan to use the Virus was not a pre-war plan. We don't know when they came up with it but seeing as how they waited 164 years it was not something they had from the start. If they did they would have taken FEV and the other stuff they got from Mariposa in Fallout 2 before the war.

They could have used the combined military power of the Rig and Raven Rock to take back America in the early days just after the great war. During the years of "Quite Darkness." Why use science! when a global nuclear war did a pretty good job killing off the none-Enclave. 164 years sitting on a mountain of tech and they did nothing. To me that is in no way believable. Then all the crap from Broken Steel. Why use Science! when you have good old plasma weapons, Advanced Power Armour, T-51b PA, mobile land crawler and space weapons! They would have also known about Liberty Prime.

Its easier for me to believe that the Enclave thought their bases in the Easter were destroyed. After all its the Capital, prime target. So they waited and figured out how to use science! to get what they want. I am just saying if they knew about Raven Rock all that time. Then they would have known they had the military might to long ago to rebuild America in their image and yet nothing a big fat goose egg.

They waited until 2170's.



Really Styles, how many men are you suggesting they have, the Enclave were paranoid and simply waited to long before acting; they aren't infalible. The Nuclear war also did a good job of [censored] up the mainland, they didn't want to risk radioactive exposure and waited. Why struggle to impose order on people who could suffer from all kinds of defects and medical conditions when they can start again slowly. You've seen how far the NCR stretched; imagine that just after the war and with fewer people and more problems. They had no reason to believe that Liberty Prime could become operational, even the best minds in pre-war times couldn't do it.

Ok so we know when they came up with the plan or at least the decade.

So almost 100 years they sat on their butts and did nothing. I know they don't have alot of people. Point is there would not have been alot of people for them to kill, seeing as how almost everyone was killed during the great war.

Worried about Radiation? Radiation was gone by Fallout. 84 years after the great war and they had yet to come up with their plan. Also they have GECKS!. They had SCIENCE! to deal with the radiation. With Fallout 2 it is somewhat believable. They had few people but alot of Advanced tech. Not much they can do.

Now factoring in: Liberty Prime, Space Weapons, Veribirds, Raven Rock (another large manufacturing base) and their mobile base as well as their rabbit like breeding ability (Put that down to Fallout 3 spawns) it becomes very unbelievable they desided to do nothing till the 2170s and then did nothing till 2241. Also force fields!


If the BoS can get Optimus running with flash bulbs and sensor modules, I am sure the Enclave could have got it to work. Yet some how the pre-war military and Mr.House could not :ermm:

Worried about Radiation? Radiation was gone by Fallout. 84 years after the great war and they had yet to come up with their plan. Also they have GECKS!. They had SCIENCE! to deal with the radiation. With Fallout 2 it is somewhat believable. They had few people but alot of Advanced tech. Not much they can do.

So... are you suggesting that the Enclave on the ENCLAVE had the firepower to anhilate everyone on the continent? Regardless, they simply took to long to act, sitting on thier arses is exactly what they did; maybe they overestimaated how long it would take for the radiation levels to drop? They could remove radiation in their local area's but what about the rest of America whcih they intended to colonise? They were paranoid about not becoming tainted; as Richardson said. "We have taken great lengths to keep ourselves safe form radiation; it's what seperates a human - like me - from mutants - like you."



I don't see the advantages of those weapons, what exactly do you think they'll be fighting? If they had left the comfort of the ENCLAVE sooner then they would have realised that those weapons were not worth the 3k mile distance, not to mention actually reaching Raven Rock (no MWBoS pact for fuel). Besides are you forgetting who the first generation Enclave were? They were the businessmen and politicians; I would doubt if there were 100 able bodied men between them, maybe some of their pre-war wetwork agents but not a standing army. And are you really factoring Bethesda Magika here , low blow man.

Richardson worried about Radiation made sence in Fallout 2. America is big and they are few. They did not seem as driven as they are in Fallout 3. Still with all that new Tech in Fallout 3

The Enclave could have at least rebuilt California. Built some Cities across America. Would have greatly helped with their population. They could have used those damn force fields to wall off their cities. Super Weapons would be over kill yes but much less demand on man power. Find a City full of mutants. Blast the crap out if it from space or send in the nuke throwing Robot! Eyebots to do the exploring and mapping. Could have killed everything remotely. Eyebots find, space weapon blasts. Nuke Robot goes in when things get tuff. Mobile base to sit back and kill with all the comforts of home.

Things get more complicated if you include the Calculator's Armies.

I think Styles, that you are over-estimating the production capacity of Raven Rock and its importance as a base.

More than likely Raven Rock has a production facility that can produce armour and weapons, and some degree of robotic soldiers as well. All of this of course, would have been available on the Rig, and it would have had much more capablility to fufill these production goals.

Raven Rock helps to plug up the gap in production capacity that was lost following the destruction of the rig, it does not however, allow them to be so much more powerful that they can take over the entire continental united states.

I think its a big leap to go from "the Enclave knew about Raven Rock" to say "Oh hey they should have taken over the world with it" and therefore since they didn't, the Rig had no contact with Raven Rock. Frankly, its a terrible military strategy to spilt your forces like that and send men over to the east coast, Raven Rock isn't that strong, its not some deus ex machina that allows them to capture the world when they hold it.

Its seems to me you are questioning why the Enclave on the Rig didn't act sooner, and I think that's already been explained.

Now your talking about ethics and moralty, I don't know what to say; they could have tried but they didn't. Richardson says that although an Enclave-Mainland pact would work for a time, the Enclave's lack of numbers would eventually lead to their destruction.

Even if the production from Raven Rock is small they had 164 years to possible production. I am questioning why the Rig did not act sooner when you factor in all the stuff from Fallout 3. I did not question it before Fallout 3.


I am not saying I am right or you are wrong. Just asking questions and speculating.




Science could have protected them from the Radiation. Science could have protected them from the Wasteland. They could have had cities and multiplied in safety. They could have stopped the BoS, NCR and Shi from ever getting started. They did not. They had all that power to the point numbers was not an issue. Yet they did nothing.

Numbers was an issue in Fallout 2. Their tech was not as advanced and not as much of it.

But produce what? Weapons and armour? As I've said, they got the ability to produce more weapons, armour and robotic soldiers than they could ever use on the Rig. Now if Raven Rock was some cloning facility or a place just filled with thousands and thousands of ready-to-use-just-add-water Enclave soldiers, then yes, I could see your argument as valid.



Wait. What? Was the weapons and armour of the Enclave in Fallout 3 that much more advanced than in Fallout 2? Was it even more advanced at all?

They produced plenty in that time, they improved on their own power armour models twice, whilst in complete isolation. Even the BoS can't do that!

Its not a matter of producing weapons and armour. They could have produced civilian tech. My question is why did they not build at least one city. They have problems with population, not enough room to make babies. All that Fallout 3 tech would have made the job so much easier. Knowing about it long before Fallout 2 means they had enough time to build cities with force field walls and Gecks. Eyebots and space weapons and other robots means they could have just sat back in their nice little cities making babies and robotly kill mutations with robots, space weapons and nuke throwing robot. Would not have had to worry about Radiation and when the time came to do full scale rebuilding, then they could have used their FEV virus to kill human kind all around the world.

Before Fallout 2 I did not question this. Now with Fallout 3 I do and it bugs me.