Bah you [censored] Edenists with your alliances and radio shows; damn Hippies. Better than the schizofrenic Autumn-anarchists I suppose :thumbsup:.

@Name, meh, I would have to agree that the Enclave is in no states to be picking fights and doing anything more than hiding for a few decades in a Vault; that would be my plan.

Na, I'd declare war with everyone and do a Alamo at my base.


REMEMBER CHICAGO!

Haha, for some reason I couldn't stop yelling "GET SUM RAAGH!" while watching that video- :tongue:

I'd like to stress though that any alliance with the MWBOS would only work if the the MWBOS are under Barnaky (since if they are not controlled by him, they are basically polar opposites of the Enclave, what with taking mutants into their army and all).

The MWBOS under Barnaky though (mutant persecution and erradication) are basically the Enclave with a different name. They'd be pretty compatible in that sense. The Remnants could provide great leadership and technological resources and the MWBOS could provide the ground troops.

Humph another sellout, I expected this from someone else but not you man, after what the BoS did to us; mutant persecution which only extends to Ghouls and Super Mutants right?

Not saying I necessarily support it but it could be an interesting development.

Of course the thing I would most like to see would be the Enclave to just lay low and survive as an intact organization in a bunker somewhere in chicago. Thats also what I imagine is going to happen (hopefully, I doubt we'd see a Remnant/MWBOS alliance in any case).

If the choice though, is between getting complety destroyed by a Barnaky MWBOS or taking an opportunity to survive and even thrive by having a alliance/agreement with them, I'd prefer the latter. I mean, I hate the BOS with a passion, but I don't really think the MWBOS under Barnaky is truly the Brotherhood of Steel anyway under Barnkay, they'd be an organization that, like the Enclave, get things done.

also, the Remnants in NV say that after the Navarro base was destroyed, the rest of the Enclave moved East. Now, these are NOT the Enclave at Raven Rock, because they sent an Eyebot TO Navarro, so they don't know it's been destroyed. And it isn't the Enclave at Chicago, because that base already existed. So the Navarro Enclave (with the exception of the handful of Remnants in New Vegas) are still around somewhere, laying now. Whether we will ever see them again? Who knows. Maybe they settled down and became tribals and farmers and that's that. Maybe they went to another outpost, and are planning/rebuilding, who knows? They didn't go to Chicago, because if they had then they wouldn't have forwarded the Eyebot to Navarro, because they would have known it has been destroyed.

Personally I prefer a zero% comprimise approach, just hide in a Vault somewhere for a few decades; just lie on your back and think of Eden if it helps . This is how it starts man, first you'll be buying from the Gun Runners and Crimson Caravan (out of conveinence of course), then you'll be taking and spending the NCR money from your fallen foes and hen *BANG* your the very thing your fighting against.

In Fallout 4, the president of the NCR reveals himself to be an Enclave President, and now the whole NCR is under martial law. No, wait, that sounds too Palpatine..

I suppose that's what I prefer too. I just thought it might be a sight to see an army of MWBOS, Calculator, and Enclave soldiers marching across the Wasteland with Vertibirds flying overhead. (and "The Washington Post" playing the in background :tongue: )

One thing that could prevent that is the genetic status of the MWBOS. Are they MWBOS consider prime normals? If not then I absolutely want nothing to do with them as it would destroy the principles of the Enclave.

Who knows, the original Maxson group from Maripose only waited a few weeks before going out I think, sure there was no lethal amounts of radiation outside the bunker but many died getting to what would become Lost Hills so maybe they aren't. I think that they recruit from locals anyway don't they?

The Enclave is dead. There may be a few remnants scattered around that engage in the standard Enclave activity of killing everyone not them, but the organization is done.

I'll admit though, that I wish they weren't. Not because I think the Enclave had some sort of redeeming values, but because it's the organization that betrayed their own nation and their own people. They're the organization that not only knew nuclear war could happen, but actually encouraged it to occur. They're the people that envisioned and embraced the Vault experiments, betraying the trust of the people they were supposed to be leading and protecting for their own empowerment and sadistic amusemant.

They're an organization of irredeemable monsters and subhuman animals, and they didn't suffer enough for the crimes they committed.

I want the Enclave back, just so my character can make them suffer, mutate, beg, bleed and die over whole generations, because that's the fate they forced on the rest of humanity and is therefore no less then they rightfully deserve.

Lord Caoke, you've really stirred up the horde now.

I agree but the Enclave didn't start or encourage the war and they do have some redeeming qualities, what exactly do you think they'll do once they win?

I may be wrong on this (since I haven't actually had the chance to play tactics), but I thought that under Barnaky, the MWBOS tries to purify their ranks of mutations, which I took to mean that they were doing some sort of genetic screening themselves (and they used the Calculator army to substitute their forces).

Engage in a campaign to commit worldwide genocide to protect so-called "pure strain" humanity in the name of a dead nation, enslave anyone they miss, and continue to engage in completely inhuman experiments on innocent people whilst whistling the national anthem.

I'd say that the MWBoS and the Chicaco Enclave mixed somehow, if they had an alliance but hated eachother or whatever, but I wouldn't expect there'd be an huge force of Enclave at Chicago, and the MWBoS are huge, and maybe it was the best way for the Enclave to go to escape getting annihilated. I'd say the Enclave officer in charge of the Chicago outpost is a very charismatic man that came to terms with the MWBoS (who otherwise would've killed them and pick up their tech), but the thing is that this Enclave officer is just playing (trolling) the BoS, using them for their goals. They are, after all, the remnants of a shadow government, so it's in their blood to use others as puppies in a larger game.
So, we wouldn't maybe see a huge Enclave-only army like in Fallout 3, most likely we would see BoS, but under orders from Enclave, plotting evil plans to use the BoS to do what they want, killing off mutations and then themselves. All the time this little Enclave section in Chicago is playing a big and smart game to reach their original goals in a rather unorthodox and less directly violent way than the Enclave usually do (that is, release a virus that kills everyone everywhere).

EDIT:
I think it went like this:
Oil rig gets blown up, 90% of Enclave dies.
7% goes east while 3% stay, give up and try to intergrate into the NCR (and probably get executed)
On the way to Raven Rock, the Enclave sets up an outpost in Chicago where they leave maybe two or three plutoons, which maybe is like 1%
The other 6% are at Raven Rock and the space crawler, 5.5% of them are killed by the Lone Wanderer and BoS (lol!) and that other 0.5% (with or without Autumn) flees to place unknown, maybe they are on their way to the Chicago outpost.
While the Enclave were at Chicago, they bumped into the MWBoS but, err, didn't kill them (???... outnumbered, maybe? Autumn was in a good mood that day, maybe?), they came to some mutual agreement which is why the Enclave in F3 got a different Power Armor that is more similar to MWBoS Power Armor (more a devil-look than a wasp-look)
The Enclave are of course manipulating the MWBoS here for their needs, using them as puppies and make them crumble from within before they finish them off.
Chicago Outpost lose contact with D.C. Enclave, realizing they've been [censored] again by some wastelander.
The very charismatic and young Enclave officer starts working on the plan for the MWBoS as was intended.
This here is where you come in.

Special thing with this game would be that there aren't two main factions fighting eachother in an open war, there would two factions in an alliance that really hate eachother but doesn't say it, and both tries to outsmart eachother, get what they want, but the lesser (in size) Enclave faction is smarter than the huge not-so-prime-normal MWBoS. It'd be politics, kind of. You'd choose which side within these two mutant-hating factions you want to support, and then there's a civil war, and if you've done a good job, you've rigged the game so your side wins easily. Or you help the Mutant Liberation Army in their last attempt for survival, and rig the game so that both sides will annihilate eachother. Killing two fascist regimes with one rock, so to speak.

Hmm... incorrect, of coruse they kill people right, therefore, they want some kind of totalitarian dictatorship with slaves and such?

The Enclave are bad people who've done bad things, I don't deny that. What I do appreciate however is the goal which they are trying to acomplish. First though, "preu-strain", of course because the Enclave are just bigots and hypocrits right? Ants, dogs, flys, lizards, scorpions, crabs; all affected by radiation, of course humans are completely unchanged :laugh:. Just because they look no different doesn't mean that they are the same, real world radiation affects are present in Fallout, an example being Vault City, where it's residents suffered children born with deformities and all suffered fertility issues (which in the end resulted in all births controlled by artitificial insemination) due to a radioactive leak into their water supply. Imagine then what a global nuclear holocaust must have done to the human genome somewhere.

The Enclave's plan is global genocide, the primary reason being because they are unable to enforce any kind of effective order and nobody will respect their authority, not the F3 propogated "It's just racism!" reason; that's just a footnote. President Richardson even acknowledges that an Enclave-Mainland society might work for a while but that the weight of numbers would mean that they would be destroyed; something, which I might add, that the brainwashed drones who make up the Enclave populace wouldn't even be capable of understanding, if they knew, because for 5/6 generations they have just been told that mutants are evil, it's our patriotic duty to murder; and partly due to a lack of information on the leaderships part. You think that patriotism is voluntry? It's hammered in everyday through propaganda and the people are often in bunkers for decades meaning that by the time they have first hand accounts of mainland life they are already indoctrinated; having no means of comparison to contradict what they are told is key to this.

"Enslave what's left?" Because everyone in the Enclave is a work-shy fat-cat right, munching bowl fulls of cavier whilst fanning themselves with money soaked in blood right? <_<

The Enclave's plan was the continued survival of America, once everyone is dead they can rebuild in peace. Farms will be built, houses too. Every human being born from then on would be born into a completely safe and healthy world of education, clean food and water (and plenty of it) and constant progress. In 100 years after the Project the Enclave as what we see it in the games will no longer exist because it will have become obselete.

In comparison, Lyons's BoS. On the way to D.C. they murdered the mutant population of the Pitt (who weren't all trogs) and took the children who were healthy to be trained in their ways, ie, forcefully indoctrinated into another cause. They continue to have a shoot-on-sight policy against innocent Ghouls; but all you see of them is the fighting for good side right? So they are taken as good, whereas all you see of the Enclave are the bad sides because they are the enemy. The BoS kill indiscriminantly but ultimately do good, therefore, they are good aparently, because comprimise and bigotry are only bad when the enemy does it. The Enclave will do untold good after a length of time and after an act of terrible evil but the outcome is still the same. If you can get over that, like I, then you can understand my position.

Whole heartedly agree.

Very well said. :foodndrink:

No, the MWBoS arn't prime normals. The MWBoS actively "recruit" able-bodied prime apes from settlements under their "protection." The BoS that came from California itself are not prime normals. Only prime normals would be the Enclave. The MWBoS were the first bos that wanted new blood. The elders at Lost Hills could not come to a agreement. Insted they came up with a solution. Send those that want change on a mission East to follow remnants of the Master's army by airship. Some predicted it would end in disaster. It did.

Those that survived the storms, started recruiting wastelanders. Trading, tech, medicine and knowledge for able-bodies. Their numbers grew and they started expanding West. As they did some in the MWBoS wanted to let ghouls in for they can be very uses full. They can go into areas that would kill a normal human or force that human to use alot of anti-rad medication. So the Elders let in Ghouls, some like General Barnaky were not happy with it, seeing it as going one step to far with "new blood.". Same for when they let in Super Mutants.

So when Barnaky is given the chance to join with the Calculator, he takes it. In time he is made High Elder. The MWBoS down fall happens after that. Starting with the "Great Betrayal." General Barnaky now High Elder, recalls all mutations from the Brotherhood ranks. They are to be sent to work camps to be "resettled." Soon all mutations in areas controlled by the BoS are to be sent to camps. Humans who were for the mutations are also sent to camps or just go missing, including BoS elders.

A failed coup takes place in Vault Zero. Barnaky is not killed but the Calculator and his control over it are bady damaged, beyond repair. Barnaky's control over the Robot armies is minimal at best and can only control small units at a time. The human ranks of the MWBoS are decimated (killed by a percent not totally destroyed) by purges. More and more are replaced by Calculator Robots.

Around the time of the failed coup, the Mutant Liberation Army is formed. Humans including exBoS, Ghoul and super mutant, even deathclaws some trained by the Brotherhood make up the Mutant Liberations Army. They liberate the BoS "Work Camps" and hit supply lines. Other raider and slaver factions take advantage of the chaos and attack BoS settlements and outposts.

MLA finds allies with whats left of the Reaver Movement and are supplied with EMP tech. Settlements rebel agaisnt the BoS, no longer willing to have their young being "recruited" into the BoS. To send a message entire settlements are put to the flame and their people killed or enslaved. Some people are still willing to join the BoS but far few in numbers. New Caculator Robots become harder and harder to make due to the damage done to the Calaculator and demands on supplies to make them. Fuel supplies (made form Corn) run out. BoS have to go mostly by foot.

Over the years the MWBoS fight a loosing battle and are forced back to strong holds across the Midwestern United States. They never manage to make contact with the Western BoS. Lyons born five years after the start of the MWBoS is sent on a mission East. As part of his mission he is to find the BoS sent east almost 8 decades before. MWBoS fearing Lyons is the tip of an BoS army from the West avoid being found. Lyons does not give up. Coming ever closer to a MWBoS strong hold the elders send out a squad to make contact with Lyons. Lyon's buys their story. Believeing they are only a small group out side of a city called Chicago. Lyons makes note and gets on with his prime mission, find DC and look for Tech.

Enclave renmants on their way to DC set up a relay station in Chicago. They come across the MWBoS. MWBoS don't know about the Enclave. They left before the events of Fallout 2. The remants make contact with MWBoS. A trade agreement is set up. Its an uneasy one. Enclave had yet to meet their new president Eden and need all the help they can get. MWBoS supply them with fuel for their vertibirds and ammo, food, water and so on. Enclave leave men behind and move on to DC.

Years Later the Enclave remants from DC, now remnants of remnants come back to their outpost in Chicago. Enclave do some soul searching. They realise their goal to make the world pure can't happen. Those left behind fill in their brothers on the history of the MWBoS and tell them of Barnaky. After much debate the Enclave change their goal. "If we can't kill them, might as well control them." Another deal is made with Barnaky. Enclave memebrs are made elders in the MWBoS and the BoS get new tech and knowledge. Their decades of losing to the Mutant Liberation Army could soon be over. For it was alway the Mutant Leberation Armies desteny to lose.

Then the Enclave is no longer the Enclave and just a bunch of people who gave in and abandoned what everyone they have known died for.

Also, soon to be Eden's men were helped by the MWBoS, that strikes a little silly only a year or so after the Oil Rig when the deaths of hundreds of people and the glory of almost being able to complete their actual goal was taken away.

I see it as a return to the true Enclave. They return to the shadows. They join with the MWBoS become part of their leadership. In time maybe their goals can happen but it will take decades or longer and their numbers are few and supplies almost gone.

MWBoS do not know of the Enclave. Fallout Tactics happens before the events of Fallout 2. Enclave moving to DC had not met Eden yet. They need supplies a deal could have been made. We don't know how long it took the remnants to get to DC.

I would not mind the Enclave remants becoming apart of the MWBoS under Barnaky. To me it is better that way. Having the Enclave hold-up in some bunker waiting for the day they can take over the world! is just stupid and a sad way for the Enclave to end up. "What are we going to do today Augustus? Why the samething we do every day minion. Try to take over the World!"

Also Fallout 3 to me made it seem like Augustus was against killing everyone in the wasteland, hence why he rebelled. To me it makes sense he would be ok with joining the MWBoS. Fallout 3 they did not have have a president till Eden and he is gone and like you and others state, Military can't be president. Remnants seemed to me all military so who the hell would be president and vp and so on? They would be left will little choise but to hide in a hole. Or join a like minded group and rebuild their power and fight a mutant army.

This! So this

Although there are a few things, I'd like there to conflicts within the new MWBoS-Enclave, between BoS Elders and the new Enclave Elders (is Barnaky supporting the BoS elders or the Enclave elders?) They are still very much two factions, but cooperate alot (or well, the Enclave use them as puppets). You could say that the Enclave is.... an enclave in MWBoS. Ha ha.
And another thing - if the MWBoS run out of fuel, how can they sell fuel to the Enclave later? I know, you said corn and Vertibirds most likely don't use fuel from corn. Where did they get vertibird fuel from? (is it a special fuel for vertibirds, or the same as cars can use?) So MWBoS car engines were remade to run on corn-based fuel?

@The Enclave -
I think the Enclave would stilly very much be the Enclave. It's not that they've changed their goal, they've modified the road to get to it. They've tried two times to kill everyone with a virus, they've failed both times and in the process lost too many men. And now the Enclave have met the MWBoS and are outnumbered and has the chance to control them, they've also got a somewhat similar goal, only that Enclave want to kill the MWBoS aswell. But of course don't tell them that before they've nestled their way into them, and pretty much control everything, kills off the MLA, kills off opposing elders and insurgents, they upgrade and repair the Calculator, proceed to build an even bigger robot army, kill off Barnaky and take full control of the Calculator, then kill off the entire MWBoS and bam - the Enclave went from just a few remaining plutoons to a whole huge army again (though robotic)! And they can start working on a new virus and a way to release it onto the world again Yay!

Hmphf, the unredeemably evil and selfish Enclave? No thanks. When they're acting out of, what I consider, necessatity I'll defend them to the death. Pre-war though they were bad.



The Enclave moved to Raven Rock post Fallout 2 though, they had just seen everything they had known anhilated, you think that they would accept help and forge bonds with the mainlander who, and I quote:

"It's your kind that destroyed this mighty nation!"



To me, the Enclave abandoning everything to actual help the mainlanders rebuild something which most certainly insn't America is a betrayal. They would just be people from Enclave decent, nothing more, the Enclave would be dead. Whilst I am usually one to argue that the Enclave is only worth the people in it, they're rules to this sort of thing.



Autumn was also (in)directly responsible for the destruction of the Enclave and the reason it lost in the Capital Wasteland, if he hadn't been such a [censored] then they could have simply sent out a guy or two to administer the virus into the water after the BoS, or whatever, had fixed the purifier. But because Autumn was a problem, Eden appeased him with the intention of completing the true goal on-the-side. Eden was a nut who valued purging the Capital he loved over the people he intended to repopulate it with, he killed his own men to ensure that the LW could administer the posion because he couldn't trust his own men because of Autumn. Due to Bethesda's writing Autumn also goes from staging a coup to being in denial that Eden would betray him... in the space of a few hours. He also says, (I love this line), "The Chain-of-Command must be obeyed!"

"I'm not entirely sure that Eden can be trusted, and I think he knows I don't trust him. What he doesn't know is that I have the self-destruct code to his console."

Further proof of his madness and that he actually intended to hold the President to randsom if Eden didn't keep his word; he would risk the Enclave's main base for his delusions, to which he also aparently sacrifices his men by sending them into the irradiated chamber twice at least (the guy on who goes in if the LW gives the wrong code and the corse already in there). Why? Because he couldn't stomach killing all those wastelanders.

Autumn isn't fit to command a one-man checkpoint; he's a schizoid, cowardly traitor who was responsible for the loss of the Enclave in D.C. and practically murdered several people for his own goals, which were not that of the legitimate authority. He should put on a civilian jumpsuit and hang himself as a disgrace.

Their could be come conflict. Some Enclave like the ones left behind like the idea of joining. Some Enclave from DC could want to opt for "hide in a hole." Barnaky makes some Enclave scribe Elders. Their tech is more advanced then anything the MWBoS had in years. Fighting a decades long war, forced to recruit wastelanders. It would not be hard to imagine MWBoS scribes arn't the best and brightest with advanced tech. Enclave assigned to help the MWBoS could be very resentful. Augustus becomes a military elder maybe a general. Happy to finally be rebuilding. For the MWBoS do help humans. They help them farm, provide tech and education. MWBoS settlemnets could be very nice a vision of what the Enclave always wanted or at least close to it.

They were running out of fuel. Not enough to support or fuel all their vehicles, like the Germans at the end of 1944 to 1945. MWBoS are forced to use less vehicles. Strong holds could have enough but not for an army. By the time of the Enclave come to the Chicago area, the BoS have it under their control and are able to give some fuel. Not sure if Vertabirds can't run on corn fuel but where does it say they can't?

There is a quest in Tactics to find large fussion batteries. By the time the Enclave get to Chicago, MWBoS could have found away to produce them, just not in large numbers.

I support the idea that the vehicles in Tactics are modded to run on bio-fuel.