Seems to me they have to change or I simply don't want to see them again. Not even as remnants. As an Enclave fan, do you really want to see them in a hole in the ground?

Bethesdas crap writing made them stupid. They only had a president, not much of a government. After Fallout 3 they can't even have that unless someone in the military steps down.

I know you love them and defend them to the death but really how many times do we have to see them as the "Kill eveything not us!" again. They are dead as a faction and will never (should never) come back again as a powerful faction. As another main antagonist.

They only came back in Fallout 3 because of Bethesda's limited imagination, which created plot holes in canon/lore you can drive trucks through.

I am simply giving an idea that could have the the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtXhuaTcohY under http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2ZcpcO7C58 and Enclave remnants in Chicago, together.

I think it would make a great story. The Enclave deserve better than to become remnants hiding in a hole for decades biding their time, that will never come.

I don't want to see them back! Never again, the canon of them is too [censored] up already and even I find it hard to string it together in a logical order (I say even because I theorise about the Enclave a lot as you can tell). I personally would sooner see them dead as opposed to [censored]es of the mainlanders; whatever's left should piss-off to a remote, unopened Vault and simply bide, or at the very least survive.

Did not mean to make you mad. Point is there are Enclave in Chicago. There is a MWBoS there as well. I would like to have Barnaky Ending of Tactics become canon and for it to cause the down fall of the MWBoS the "Hard times." Even without the Enclave joining. I am just trying to make sense of it. I don't want the MWBoS to be just a small group outside of Chicago. None of the Endings of Tactics not even the Barnaky ending could cause such a thing. With the Enclave known to have an out post in Chicago, which I feel was built by Enclave on the way to DC from Navarro.. The two groups had to have met and I don't like the idea of the Enclave taking down the MWBoS. PA in Tactics looks like PA the Enclave have in Fallout 3.

Also PA is rare as hell in the MWBoS. Only the elite have it. Enclave maybe not have seen these BoS as a great threat but still a threat enough not to start a war with them. After all, they are like minded. They have a mission to get to DC, so they don't have the time for a war. They also need supplies and are without a president (Unless there was president X). A military leader would be likely to make the call to save the lives of his men. Seems to me the Enclave moving East were without Advanced PA. Advnatage MWBoS.

Lyons was also looking for the MWBoS. Only way to have knowledge of the "hard times" would have been to meet the MWBoS. If Enclave and MWBoS were in conflict. Lyons would have known about it. Lyons would have been then looking for the Enclave, the greatest threat to the wasteland since the Master.

Whoa. I'm getting not mad , this is a peaceful debate. Yes but surely on that logic the MWBoS would have known who the Enclave were by the post-Fallout 2 era as the BoS proper found out, it would be pretty important news would it not? I agree on the origins of the Chicago Outpost.

I'm just saying,

Look at my Enclave, torn apart by Bethesda's pigs. Now most will not believe that there was a time when the Enclave were something beautiful. :cryvaultboy:

A corruption of my favourite line form BioShock aside, I just don't want them back; I am guess just incredibly baised and loyal to my and the Big R's version of the Enclave.

EDIT: They had a President, he was called Eden. I see no reason why the Enclave had no APA

Western BoS sent dissenters on a mission east. That mission was lost. MWBoS had no contact with the west. Their goal was to work thier way back to the West and show the Elders "Look we have proven the benefit of letting wastelanders join!"

All the Ending of tactics end with the question "what would happen if they enountered the original knowledge hoarding brotherhood of steel? Safe to say they had not contact. Western Brotherhood having no contact determine that the airconvoy did run into a storm and all died. A "tragic accident" for the Brotherhood :shifty: Not till decades later when the others such as Lyons ask for New Blood does the question come up "what really happened to the first group?" The Elders once again come up with a mission to send the dissenters far to the east only this time there arn't as many as there was 80 years ago and the Elders also send those they know will not go native with Lyons (Outcast) as an attempt to keep Lyons and the others from going native. Clearly that failed.

Picture this scenario.

Oil Rig gets destroyed. The Enclave find themselves without a government. Some opt to stay and defend Navarro. Others give up try to make a life in NCR. Some take a chance to follow a Enclave signal coming from an old base in DC over 3000 miles away. Augustus Autumn Sir leads the remnants East. Maybe with Vertibirds but having to stop every 500 miles or so and get supplies, fuel and so on. They have no power armour as Fallout 3 shows not one suit of T-51b or Advanced PA in the Enclave's possession.
The Enclave back at Navarro kept them all.

AA Sir gets his men to Chicago. They come across Brotherhood. They crap themselves. They get ready for a fight! The Brotherhood they encounter don't seem to know that they are Enclave. They don't know the history, the threat of the Enclave. They do seem to be very interested in the Vertibirds and advanced plasma weapons. Enclave take advantage of the MWBoS ignorance of the Enclave. They make a deal for fuel, supplies and Power Armour blue prints. They agree to help the Brotherhood and leave some men behind to man their new relay system.

Enclave can't simply wipe out the BoS in Chicago because they have no power armour and yet the BoS do and have greater numbers (not all in Pa) with weapons like .50cal machine guns and M72 guass rifles. A miltary leader such as sir makes the call to save the lives of his men. Get supplies and move on to DC.

I would have to contest various parts of the story, the Enclave does have a government, Eden immediately assumes control through the Presidential Line of Succession and orders men to RR, leaves some at Navarro and gives AA the go ahead for a Chicago waystation. How nobody knew about Eden, [censored] knows, they didn't tell the grunts why they were going to RR.

I know that Bethesda took the design for their power armour but nothing suggests that it has an canonical connection to them as of yet; I see no reason to make such a connection. I would say that any power armour taken with them was recycled, as in both explainations manufacturing capabilities must be present at RR.

A guy they never heard of 3000 miles away says "I am your president and I order you to DC" makes little sense and is crap Bethesda writing. Still we learn in New Vegas that not all the Enclave in the West went. Only AA Sir and maybe a third of the Enclave went. With no Power Armour. I still find it hard to believe that even diehards would just go "yes Mr. Eden" and blindly travel 3000 miles, even with vertibirds. Curiosity would make them go, I doubt blind faith made them. IMO they would not have made Eden president till after they met him.

I don't see the need for a cannical connection but I don't see a problem with having one. MWBoS don't seem to be able to make PA, hence why they have so few suits of PA and only the Elite get to wear it.

Well yeah, Eden could presumably provide evidence to support his claim and then they would have to follow orders of the commander-in-chief. I still hold that they went with power armour and that it was recycled. Have you seen Enclave culture, questioning superiors is simply not done, they are all fanatically loyal to a demo-God of a Commander in Chief, Eden was apart of Richardson's team, the God Richardson who was on his 6th consecutive term in office; you are leaderless in a culture strongly built around leadership and in fact they have depended on the same one for nearly 30 years. He was then murdered along with a tonne of people and their hopes and dreams crushed at the final post, some remnant of authority survives to guide the way. You think that the "diehards" followed Eden's call whilst some didn't believe and just stayed. Does Moreno look like a doubter to you?

I doubt they would recycle Advanced PA, Advanced PA MKII and T-51b power armour into the crap tin cans of Fallout 3. Yes I know the game not having Damage Thresold made them crap tin cans but I can't see them being better then the originals even with DT.

Yes I have seen Enclave go agaist orders. Augustus and his rebellion against Eden. Fallout 2 also show that the Enclave arn't mindless followers of their God Richardson. Alot of the Enclave in Fallout 2 were just civilian scientists. I don't see them being blind followers. New Vegas shows us this. Many gave up and tried to make a new life in NCR. If they blindly obeyed orders they all would have gone to DC or stayed to defend Navarro to the last man. Their is also that man in Fallout 3 that was ex Enclave that took off.

I believe the diehards had something to believe in. A chance to start again in the East but I doubt they were stupid enough to just make Eden president. Even with what ever proof he had. They would want to meet him first. Just knowing their is an Enclave base in the East would make them want to go. This so called "president" can be figured out later.

If the ones in Fallout 3 just made Eden President without question, without even meeting them. Then to me the Enclave died, when Navarro fell to NCR.

Inferior production facilities, :shrug:, Raven Rock was not an Enclave base after all.



Augustus Autumn was a fool as we have discussed, was privvy to Eden's indentity and was 35 years after what we are discussing. Civilian Scientists, so, they are still civilians, they still spend there days "wondering what saftey film is on to-night" and listening to the endless propaganda. Almost all of the civies were blindly patriotic as they all lived in the same environment.

[censored] the New Vegas Remnants, they are wrong and more than likely an overzealous attempt to compensate for the cannon-fodder in F3. "The leadership was ruthless but we just wanted to civilise things", did you [censored] Kreger, then why did you elect him 6 damn times. Look I love the Remnants but they were not faithful to Fallout 2 Enclave patrollmen who laughed and then shot you up real bad; they should all have been like Moreno (who was the best written in my opinion anyway). As I said, Eden simply ordered them to have a garrison there. I believe that you are reading the quote rather incorrectly from the New Vegas loading screen, more than likely all of these people tried to integrate after the NCR destroyed Navarro. Are you telling me that a good many people at Navarro decided that they would try and live in a world that they had just tried to murder and which they knew nothing about? It just seems more plausable that this was a last resort as opposed to just giving in.

What you are saying is that the Enclave split essentially, a 1/3 of the Enclave simply said, "Orders from our superior officer? [censored] that we'll just desert and stay here." Autumn Sr took his men across the wasteland, of his own initative told some of them to stay in Chicago as a waypoint between D.C. and all the Enclave at Navarro who didn't believe him, ie, disoboyed an order by a superior officer. At D.C. Eden saw nothing wrong with the plan of leaving a fraction of what was already 1/3 the survivors of the ENCLAVE, and told them to keep Autumn there. When Autumn got there, Eden got him to come into the ZAX room on his own, without using something audiable like the intercom, and persuaded him then not to tell anyone (because as we know Eden was a secret).

What I am saying is that it makes more sense if the post-ENCLAVE Enclave leadership accepted Eden and planned all of this in advance as opposed to be following some lost, unknown signal like you are suggesting and the men at Navarro just saying "meh, come if you want, stay if you don't."

I m alomst positive that Eden said others decided to make him pres once he became self aware, because of his vast knowledge of prior history and decision making. Some one would have to talk to him in fo3 again. Eden talked alot, and I really can t remember a lot of what he said. You could also ask him a lot of questions.

I wouldn t mind fo4 in Chicago to find out what really happened there. They better play fo tactics a lot so they don t f stuff up.

The idea of the Enclave stopping there could work, because thier pa looks alot like the mid west bos pa that I ve seen in pics.

To me I can relate to the Enclave if they are real people. Not the mindless automatons that Bethesda made them out to be. I like the Enclave of Fallout 2 and the remnants and their stories in New Vegas.

You also have that elite team that agrees to help you kill Frank for a promise of escape off the rig.

There is also the Enclave Scientist you can talk into inoculating you and releasing the virus throughout the Rig.

So Mr.Enclave there are many examples of Enclave not obeying orders and going against their own people.

:foodndrink:

Yup less than 10 people out a thousand or whatever, totally disproved I have been.

Granite and the men are just stupid. The ENCLAVE is going to explode, your friends, families, everything basically are going to be destroyed to which he responds, "I ain't going to drown like no rat."; I prefer my version better. Say you've convinced Curling with your "Brilliant explanation", everyone in a jumpsuit is dying a brutal death. All of the troopers are saying, "Get the civilians to safey!" "We got a hazardous situation here!" "Didn't you notice the alarm!" "Get youself into a clear area now!"; then literally a squad on the next screen, "I ain't going to drown like a rat." It's Bethesda level stupid.

Same with Curling, the head [censored] scientist, "Have you ever considered that evolution is natural?", "Your right! In my decades of work on eugenics I never once that of that pretty contextless statement; evolution brought on by atomic warfare makes much more sense then our plan, I'll just kill everyone on here instead."

If the citizens are all like, "The Project is our salvation" I see no reason why everyone who continously lives on the ENCLAVE should be; they all live in the same environment; hell, the Citizens comment of "The troopers will take care of us" made me come to the conclusion that the Troopers are supposed to be feel as though it is there duty to keep the people safe, like it's their God given task drilled into them. I would be willing to bet money that the NV Remnants were an overzealous attempt to elevate the Enclave from evil cannon-fodder, and as a result they slash horrifically with what we have seen; something else I can dislike F3 for.

"We just wanted to civilise things." You can't have that attitude and work for the Enclave; the Enclave does want to civilise things, through the Project. That line almost suggests that they just want an NCResque government in place, which as I've said is not the case. Navarro is a very new military base, as many mention, they haven't been there for that long, maybe a year tops I think. That's not really enough to make them into the Remnants. Whilst I believe that Navarro was a deliberate scheme by Richardson to introduce some liberty into the Enclave, the people there are still members of the Enclave.

I base all of my opinions on quotes and overanolysed facts; which ever seems to be the predominant view I believe and try to fit the quotes around it or ignore. Almost all of the Enclave is aboard the ENCLAVE, I see no reason why the citizens are so loyal and the actual soldiers themselves are not as loyal; therefore I disregard. Granite and his men are actually very important to me as my Fan-Fics characters extra-motivation and background was that he was a member of Granite's squad, the one with the Gauss Pistol, and that he feels undescribable anger and almost that he is a traitor because he helped the Chosen One to escape after he killed the entire ENCLAVE. I simply describe it as the Chosen One manipulating the guilibilty of Granite by saying that Horrigan released the FEV in some insane mutant plan. Granite agrees because: a. Why would a fellow trooper lie to him about something that important. b. Mutants are known for being the scum of the Earth & c. Horrigan is a monster.

A much more plausible explaination if I may say so myself. A few badly written lines and quotes will not destroy the bedrock which I have based all my opinions on; imagine my opinion, if you will, as the firm and bold as the word "ENCLAVE" burned into a massive lobby to some great Fallout Shelter


Also, a little unfair much? You stopped defending your theory at 23:10, and I just let it drop too, yet continue to attack mine? As if it will make your BoS/Enclave more plausable; I believe I explained fairly why it simply makes more sense for the leadership at Navarro to have just talked it out with Eden.

Seriously, I'm not annoyed or anything, I just get really defensive when I get questioned about something which I am firm in and can properly explain, in my opinoin; there are other quotes too that you haven't mentioned but I chose to let them die, aparently like the belief that all of the Enclave were loyal and united. Just like your MWBoS are on "hard times" thing, you don't let that destroy what you think; niether do I. Not to [censored] myself but of you really want my hypothetical depiction of ENCLAVE society, read the first post of my fan-fic.

:confused:

I am confused.

He says in his speech (on Enclave Radio) entitled "My Presidency" that "rest assured, I am your President, because the appropriate people decided I should be." Eden was not made President by anyone who arrived in Raven Rock from Navarro as they would have absolutely no authority to do such a thing. Eden became President the moment that Richardson was killed on the Rig via Continuity of Goverment and the line of succession, which is what I believe he refers to in the "My Presidency" speech. He also makes reference to COG and his involvement with it when you talk to him in Raven Rock.



However, claiming that Autumn rebelled against Eden becomes a muddled affair when you take into account the fact that he still believes he is following Eden's order's: "The chain of command must be upheld", even though he has practically (and publicly) countermanded the President of the United States.

Why?

Enclave it not the U.S. govrn no matter what they think. The United States ended in 2077 as we know. U.S. troops have a flag on thier uniform that tells every one they r U.S. troopers. Enclave knows what they r doing it wrong, and that is why they don t dishonar the U.S. flag by wearing it as they slaughter people. I ve seen the opening of fo2. That is not what the U. S. government would do.

Have them open a vault then cut them down with a mini gun. Even without fo3 I would hate them right there. Enclave are posers......

You put alot of work into your case, I just did not agree with Bethesda level stupid. I like Fallout 2's Enclave because they are people. They have people willing to die for the Enclave cause and people willing to save themselves when all is lost. It was more then ten people. New Vegas lets us know large chunks of the Navarro Enclave gave up and tried to join NCR. Some stayed and died at Navarro and others went to DC. Still there are individual cases of Enclave acting like people.

Fallout 3 Enclave are mindless people willing to click their heals together and say Heil, mein Führer! and die like rats for a lost causes. You can write off Augustus' little rebellion as stupid or try to explain it as something else but to me it was his way of saying "shove off Eden." I know there are quotes of him saying chain-of-command must be followed but I put that down to Bethesda's crap writing.

I am not saying they should just give up when things are looking bad but to say that none would is beyond me. They are supposed to be people and people react differently in end game situations. I don't like Fallout 3's Enclave where the people have little to know presonallity.

No matter what you think, as of the post-apocalypse, they are the legitimate government of the United States of America. They were the shadow government of the United States before the war as well (which meant they had de facto control of the country).



I hate how people seem to have this personification of the United States as incapable of doing wrong, and therefore the Enclave cannot be the United States.

Look up the term "Indian Removal".

What's wrong with my Enclave not being people? They are people amongst themselves; they play pool and poker, they have fun in their own way, there's even an Enclave man and women with a condem and a ball gag on one floor. It's just that you can't ever see that in-game; was Moreno not a person? New Vegas let's us know that the Enclave at Navarro were defeated and that any Enclave left tried to settle into the NCR; the chronological order of those two statements is up to you. I still hold that Granite was stupid; I repeat that as he was saying those lines he must have knew that his mother, father, whatever were dying slowly and painfully; yet nothing. "I ain't going to drown like a [censored] rat."



Not a lost cause at all, if Autumn hadn't been what he was then, again, they would have easily won. I put Autumn's rebellion down to crap writing,

"How can we have the Player, inside the black knights castle and yet have no big fight?"

"But if they fight how can we give the player options and powerhouse MORAL CHOICES?"

"We'll just do both! We'll let the trainee Steve come up with a reason, it can be his project."

Just because the cause isn't immediately for massively identifyably good reasons doesn't mean that drama and people can't exist; people simply choose not to create them. Like how many Nazi protagonists have you seen? None I would imagine and in anything where the protagonist is a soldier for the wermacht he just so fortunately happens to be anti-Hitler (like Cross of Iron). People who do horrific things aren't necessarily horrfic people, in my opinion understanding the motivations of a villian are far more interesting; one of the things which have lead me to defend the Enclave people as much as I do. I hate cliche and motivationless villians with a passion, the Enclave have become that, therefore I try and elevate them. I do it for a lot of villains, except that Fallout isn't an ordinary universe, it's brilliant concept and has become my entire escapist world (having displaced even BioShock!); the Enclave is a passion born from something which was little more than a project to understand why.

I guess it all comes down to how one interprets the facts. I see cases where Enclave do go against orders and it happens enought that its not just a random thing. Augustus did rebel, yeah it was because bad writing but it happened. Others in the past betrayed the Enclave on matters of conscience (seeing that the people of the wasteland are people) and others, purly to save themselves. As you put it knowing their family would die. Maybe he knew they were already dead. Maybe he had no family or maybe he was just a selfish ass. Point his no matter how well run a group is people will alway go against it, for many reasons.

This debate started because of my theory that Enclave remants could infact deal with the MWBoS (under Barkany). I believe under conditions where they have no leader (president). No power armour, little supplies and no fuel. They could take advantage of a like minded group. Really what is the harm? You are thousands of miles from home. Another thousand or so from your objective. You need supplies. People with advanced tech meet you, intresed in your tech. They make a deal. Why not take the deal? They still plan to go to DC and once again try to kill everything. (well they only tried to kill everything in DC).

With their second shot gone and even fewer in numbers, why not try to join a group that you can influence. A group also trying to kill mutations. Sure they arn't "prime normals" but in time you might be able to change that.

I mean, Obsidian has now put evidence that there is Enclave in Chicago.
We've also got the evidence that the Enclave MUST be in a very bad shape right now, due to three hard defeats which probably left them with just a few percent left of their original force in Fallout 2, and they are most likely in Chicago.
We've also seen how very inspired the F3 Enclave Power Armor is by MWBoS Power Armor.
And we know that if the Barnaky Ending is canon, the MWBoS and Enclave have similar goals and opinions (with the difference that the Enclave wants ALL mutations gone)
Therefore having that little percentage of the Enclave left playing the MWBoS as puppets, to erradicate alot of mutants and ghouls meantime as they grow in strength again, maybe take over the robot army and the Calculator and kill the MWBoS feels alot better than having that little percentage hiding in an underground bunker like Nevada BoS, until they inbreed too much and/or run out of food, supplies or whatever, and wither away.
Either they are completely completely dead, or they are what Styles said.
Because it's a chance to make the inconsistencies... consistent. And tie together some stories that makes sense. And still have Enclave in a game, but neither as a huge force nor as powerless remnants but back to being a shadow government (if MWBoS is the "government" of their huge faction)
I also believe that some Enclave can be actually human. Not every Enclave would hysterically laugh as they give painfull death to unarmed civilian families, and then have a lil midnight jerk-off* at the oil rig because the thought of what he did today was so satisfying that it made him horny.

*Edit: because [censored] was censored.

I just don't see why being a fanatically member of the Enclave and an empathetic human being have to be exclusive; we didn't get to see the reactions of anyone immediately after the ENCLAVE was destroyed. Everyone pressumably lost most of their family, if not all. As I say, among each other they are (if a little repeatitive and samey) human beings; as I say one pair even has a condem and ball gag. Moreno was a person right? My favourite remnant, before Kreger, in-fact; maybe my sympathies to the Enclave means that I can understand him better :shrug:.

Off-topic: I didn't think that the W word (that was what you used right?) was really in modern prevalence outside of the Commonwealth of Nations.