brotherhood of steel for me.....wish they would increase their numbers

They piss each other off for one:

"You better point those peepers somewhere else...before I tear em' out of your skull"

"yeah, yeah. Keep running your mouth [censored], keep that up and I'll be your worst nightmare." -Typical raider conversation.

And they pratice interior decorating.


That and Autumn doesn't want to abandon the President, he fully intends to go running back to him.

How he'd manage that is a question only he can answer.

I meant something like Autumn becoming the President, and completing his plan.

Not how it works. Besides, you can speech challenge him and make him realise that without Eden and such he's already lost anyway. Besides, one does simply not kill the President and then assume office. That would turn the Enclave into a farce.

If you want clean water for the people and goodness I suggest you see the Brotherhood.

I wouldn't say they tried to kill the president. It's very complicated what the both think about each other. On one hand Autumn must have had a reason to leave Raven Rock in a hurry. On other hand Eden says Autumn doesn't know about the FEV being brought back to life. Eden also notes that Colonel Autumn is authorized to do whatever he wishes to do. "While I have full control over the technology at Raven Rock, Colonel Autumn is in control of the human soldiers". If you ask him why he won't simply order the troops to surrender, Eden responds that he doesn't want to risk the Enclave's integrity in a situation like that.

It's just the way it is /shrug.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':shrug:' /> I vote for going with what we got.

No. But Autumn had the self-destruct codes for Eden located in a Average locked footlocker in his unlocked quarters. Now aside from that being a blatant act of treason and what constitutes as an act of conspiring to assassinate the President (and kill anyone unable to get out of Raven Rock before it explodes), its also incredibly careless and moronic for him to have put it in such a easily accesible place. Autumn also notes in this holotape that Raven Rock would "go boom", and one wonders what was going through his mind when he considered blowing up the Enclave's main base of operations, their capital and home, and a place where they likely produce all their weapons and armaments. I don't care what his disagreements with Eden were, or what his reasoning behind doing such a thing would have been, he crossed a line with that holotape. Its something I can't forgive him for.

One wonders what the soldiery would have thought of his little plan.



Actually. Autumn says that himself.

"That can't be, that plan was abandoned months ago, Eden would never go behind my back!"

But yeah, the point remains the same either way.


Thats not quite what he says. Eden's quote is "I have direct control over all technology here in Raven Rock, the soldiers here follow my orders, but they, like all humans, have free will. Their dedication to serving their country suits me well, but it will not be enough forever." Eden says nothing about Autumn being authorized to usurp command in fact he says that "[Autumn] disagree's with how best to handle the problem of the wastes, he feels my methods far too extreme, and he has allowed his humanity to cloud his objectivety. Now that he is publicy countermanding my orders, I can no longer rely on him".

While I agree that Autumn did have the personal loyalty of many soldiers within the Enclave, I don't believe that he controlled all. Its apparent to me that many Enclave soldiers have a near religious loyalty to Eden as well. Evidenced by some of their quotes.

"For.....Eden....."-last words when some die.

That's the one I usually point to the most.

The Outcasts cuz they pay handsomely 4 s.h.i.t.y. scrap metal and the ghouls of underworld dont really know why but i just like em

Really? I am curious to know what Eden meant by that. What higher power than the Enclave's love of their country could Eden possibly swear them too to make them loyal forever...


Hmm... I just can't put my finger on what it is. Let's make a list:

1. He's reigned a despot like rule with seemingly no other members of the Executive Branch other than himself for 30 years.
2. Soldier's have more pro-Eden battlecries than pro-America. Of which some include, "I've failed" and "For Eden".

Call me barmy but doesn't it seem like somebody - already suspicious of Eden's motivations of course - could put those together and along with his own words reach the conclusion that Eden is a despot who sought to create an enternal cult of personality around himself?

Act aside, come on Andronicus. He's practically declaring himself President for life. He puts his own wants above that of the rest of the American people.

"There dedication to their country suits me well". He's basically saying that they are his pawns.

Thats sort of my whole point. I'm not really looking to debate whether Eden was or right or wrong in his actions.. /biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' /> My main point in bringing the quote up, was to show that I doubt the soldiery would all simply turn on Eden at a moments notice. When some obviously die with him being the last thought they have.



I assume you mean Eden himself. Right?

Also we need to take into account the context with which he is speaking. The quote comes in addition to quotes of dialogue in which Eden says that the mtutations running across the country cannot be contained by manpower alone. "My soldiers cannot stem the tide, nor can the cult you've come into contact with, this Brotherhood of Steel." He is essentially saying then, that while aknowledges his soldiers dedication to the cause, this dedication will not be enough to deal with the problem of the wastes alone.


Could be. But that certainly wasn't Autumn's movtivations. So I'm inclined to believe the soldiers following him didn't have that reasoning either.


We don't know that for sure. After all there is the "Enclave High Command". Not saying that you aren't correct, but it is enitirely possible that Eden had some subordinates other than Autumn.


Thats sort of a subjective statement. When you talk to Eden, he truly believes that his plan his going to better the Enclave in the long run, and that it will lead to America being rebuilt (whether thats true is a matter for another debate). Its why he tries so hard to see it followed through.

"America was great once, it can be again. I desire nothing more than to see this great nation returned to its former glory."


He's just saying that he is pleased with their dedication to the Enclave's mission. I read nothing more than that.

That's besides my point. I am was using it as an example of Eden making his own people more loyal to the Presidency than the Nation or even the Human Race in it's entireity which is what Richardson stood for.


Yes. Loyalty to the Nation replaced by loyalty to Eden with the Nation simply being used as Eden's rhetoric to promote himself.


I was refering to me. How I, an already established anti-Eden guy, might just take an opposing view to yours on Eden's motivations.


Enclave High Command is clearly a post-War authority, had they been some facet of the civilian government they would have used an already existing institution right? Besides, the only one who knew Eden's secret was Autumn - a military leader - also note that the secret of Eden's identity was only known to Autumn Snr and then his son. I think it would be prudent to assume that Autumn's position comes more from Eden's - illogical, I whole heartedly agree - need for secrecy; I mean it's now like Autumn is a qualified, successful, competant leader right?


I don't doubt Eden's intentions. I doubt that he will relinquish his Presidency though. I think that he'll place his own want-to-rule over the democratic process and the cornerstone of the American civilisation.


That line, with the other about the loyalty to their country not being enough, is enough to convince me that Eden has less than honourable intentions with the Enclave. Both place loyalty to him above the state.

Since I added this response later, I'll repost it:


Also we need to take into account the context with which he is speaking. The quote comes in addition to lines of dialogue in which Eden says that the mtutations running across the country cannot be contained by manpower alone. "My soldiers cannot stem the tide, nor can the cult you've come into contact with, this Brotherhood of Steel." He is essentially saying then, that while aknowledges his soldiers dedication to the cause, this dedication will not be enough to deal with the problem of the wastes alone.



The Enclave High Command would be post-war. But they could be part of Eden's COG plan, which established some sort of governing body in the event of his death. They may have held some high command authority, and while they may not have been privy to Eden's status, they still could have been trusted advisors. I'm just giving speculation, since we were given painfully little information concerning the Enclave in Fallout 3.


I would respectfully disagree. I do believe Eden would step down when the time was right. He claims so himself as well.

While I can't prove he would, that is my own personal belief. I take the stance of "innocent until proven guilty".


See previous point.


Once again, I respectfully disagree.

reilly's rangers

Outcasts. I don't particularly like the BoS's mission, but I love how they were willing to secede from Lyon's group because they were so devoted to their original mission.

I really like the Enclave, but I am not homicidal.

Now now, Mr. Enclave and Lieutenant, there is no need to get heated over by ideological matters inside the Enclave... Save your hate for the muties, friends. Save your hate for the time, OUR time.

Yet you have most likely slaughtered hundreds of people during your travels. Loosely quoting Betsy said in New Vegas, there's a random Raider who is so high she can't figure out that she's the bad guy. And you just shoot her before they notice you.. Is it not homicidal?

The Enclave just does its dirty work without trying to justify it directly. They have a goal and they do what they must do to achieve those goals. In the end, there is no difference. People die and someone always shoots first.

But it isn't mass slaughter. It is usually for self-defense.

Its the exact same justification the Enclave uses. They believe that they are threatend by mutations and the horrors of the wastes.

Richardson for instance, made it known that he feared the destruction of the human race, and he wants to do anything to prevent that.


Oh now I would hardly call the debate heated. /tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':tongue:' /> More like a polite poltical discussion.

Me and him were just discussing (once again) the one and only thing we usually disagree on: Eden. Care to add your thoughts as an Autumnist? /biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

I like the Brotherhood, the Outcasts and Reilly's Rangers.

We must remain united in front of others. That gives a stronger image of us.


As for my "Autumnism", well, I've said it before and I say it again: I agree with Colonel Autumn that the people of the Wasteland, humans that is, are the American citizens the Enclave as the United States government is sworn to protect. That is all. On other matters I am on same lines as you guys. On Eden, I consider him a worthy emergency replacement for Richardson, although I would say that he might become a crippling factor to the Enclave in the long run. As an AI Eden might show lack of respect for the human element. And that he does as he massacres his own soldiers to get you safely out of Raven Rock.

Especially considering if Colonel Autumn had won the final battle, there would be no mass slaughter. Only Ghouls and Super Mutants would be eradicated along with separatist factions such as Raiders, Dave, Talon Co. and Slavers. The ordinary people of the Wasteland - citizens of the United States of America - would be given full protection by the Enclave. Full rights? I seriously doubt that one, but I'm quite sure that it would be a lot better than status quo.

The mass slaughter is just one of the two plans the Enclave has.

When you think about it though, part of the blame is on Autumn there. Anyone the LW killed he is certainly directly responsible for. Eden had no intention of any soldiers dying, and had Autumn not countermanded the "let him be" order (for whatever reason), everything would have gone fine and dandy with no loss of life (unless the LW went nuts and fired upon everyone, at which point both Autumn and Eden would have been united against him).

Autumn has shown a lack of regard for the Enclave soldiery as well, sending man after man in to test the purifier codes.

"That's another good man gone sir..."-Enclave soldier at purifier

I agree that Eden's status as an AI may cause him to lack some empathy, but I don't think he simply views soldiers as pawns. Thats just my view anyway.


I've been thinking about my views toward Autumn lately and I've realized that I've got a love/hate relationship with him. It seems part of Autumn (according to dialogue) is steadfastly loyal to Eden, and part of him is a rebel/usurper. I just wish he would ditch the rebel aspect of his character.

Truth be told though, I think I'd rather Eden and Autumn just agree on something. Personally I'd rather it be Eden's plan, because I feel its more sound and would work out much better for the Enclave. But really, I just want a unified Enclave in Fallout 3. They go down either way, since Eden's plan (thanks to Broken Steel) doesn't really work out, and Autumn's plan ends in Enclave soldiers being stomped by Prime. I'd rather they go out together in style and as one.

I've got a heroic image of Eden and Autumn waiting in the control room peacefully, and with a sense of dignified resignation, while Raven Rock crumbles in around them.

Outcasts and Talon Co. are badass,

[censored] Reilly's Rangers though, [censored] them and there [censored] [censored] [censored] quest finding them on top of the most awkward [censored] building in the entire [censored] wasteland, [censored]s.


I like the Brotherhood but their goal in the Capital Wasteland completely defies what the original Brotherhood was all about, (kicking ass and getting technology) rabble! rabble rabble!

I believe that I have made my feelings on Eden perfectly clear and if I wanted to complain about Autumn anymore I'd need a blog. I will suffice to say that by 2277 I care only for the survival of the Enclave and it's citizens; which ever one of those two jokers can secure that future with the least amount of friendly butchering get's my begrudged support.

Currently it's Eden, Autumn accepting the option to just walk away at the end of Take it Back makes me [censored] sick.

I'll take that vote of no-confidence in stride. /tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':tongue:' />

In other news, the Enclave leads the poll. Looks like our, well, discussions have attracted some attention.

It is good that we disagree though. We clearly represent different moralities that appear inside the Enclave. The way I see it Mr. Enclave is definitely the Hardliner, I'm the Moderate, and Lieutenant Andronicus is In-Between. Something for everyone.

Currently level with the Brotherhood now /dry.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='<_<' />


/tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />. I'm the elderly right-wing conservative, your the up-and-coming revolutionary liberal and Andronicus is just in-betweenish. Traditionalist, Autumnist and Edenist Enclave.

Now, revolutionary liberal is nothing like it. IMO "moderate" fits it right. I am not abandoning the Enclave's basic principles. The only difference is how one perceives the Wastelanders (not counting Ghouls - I'm sure we all want to get rid of THEM). Besides that, it's all the same.