I kind of thought all of the questlines (MQ, Guilds) in Oblivion were pretty generic. Oh no! Daedra/Jyggalag/Blackwood Company/Necromancers are trying to take over the world/the realm/the guild and only you can stop them!

I vote Morrowind. Not familiar with DF so I can't really say.

I went with Daggerfall's. From a background lore perspective, Morrowind's plot progression and development of your character is a very well-orchestrated experience, but as far as the in-game story on its own is concerned Daggerfall's is the best, filled with intrigues and deceit, like a work of Shakespeare.

http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Before_the_Ages_of_Man
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Shezarr_and_the_Divines
http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Amulet_of_Kings
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Trials_of_St._Alessia
http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Last_King_of_the_Ayleids
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Glories_and_Laments
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ayleid_Reference_Text
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Magic_from_the_Sky

These are just a handful of books on the subjects I mentioned earlier, and all of them appear for the first time in Oblivion. They expand on the culture of the Ayleids, the forging of the Amulet of Kings, the role of the Ayleids in the downfall of their own empire, and the rise of the Imperial empire. You're focusing on the things that you see just playing the game, when there's so much more under the surface. That's why I say you're committed to hating the game-- you're completely writing off a large amount of the actual storytelling in Oblivion because it runs contrary to your argument.

Both games are free to download, legally no less. http://www.elderscrolls.com/downloads/downloads_games.htm

Oh eight books! How many did they take out from Morrowind? Exactly. I don't hate the game but anybody can see the lore wasn't expanded so much from MW to OB, as it was DF to MW. Which is the point I'm trying to make. But this has nothing to do with the main quest so quit arguing just for the sake or arguing.

Mission to Vivec <3 "She is a special friend" "Fuzzy tales for little kitties" "Maybe some day"

A plot containing missions like that is always irresistable.



"I hear the blight is bad up there"

Daggerfall.

Why not Arena? Very simple plot, powerful bad guy doing bad things, you need to collect pieces of something to save the world.

Why not Morrowind? That's a great story if you really get involved in it, but basically you're another "chosen one" going on a god-killing spree. The way it was made is best: get some experience, read history and lore to know what is expected of you and then decide if you're in or out.

Why not Oblivion? Mehrunes was the bad guy in Battlespire already, but now the whole daedric viewpoint is nonexistent. They're just baddies you slay til boredom, and all this pursuit for epicness shoots itself in the knee. "Chosen one" saving the world. Again.

Battlespire and Redguard have better plots than TES1 or TES4.

What are you talking about? I said in the post that you quoted that this was just a handful of books that were related to only a couple of topics, and that they were all original to Oblivion. Yes, there are books in Oblivion that were in Morrowind and Daggerfall, just like there were books in Morrowind that were from the previous games. Or are you saying that they removed books that were previously in Morrowind? Because, yeah, there are a lot of books in Morrowind that don't really have any place in Oblivion. Either way, I don't understand your argument at all. Why are you so unwilling to concede this point, or, it seems, any positive trait about the game? I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing, I'm just curious about your beef with this game. And, perhaps, can you come up with hard data to back up your claims, please?

EDIT: Okay, there was only one book in the previous games which talked about the Ayleids (The Wild Elves). EVERYTHING in Oblivion which talks about the Ayleids other than that one book is an expansion of the lore. So what are you on about?

Battlespire was pretty much survive while deep in enemy territory, and Redguard is unfair, because it's a chapter of Cyrus' tale.

Oh my god, I'm not responding to you anymore because this is off topic. MY POINT WAS NOT AS MUCH LORE WAS ADDED IN OBLIVION AS WAS ADDED IN MORROWIND OR DAGGERFALL. Sorry for the caps but you weren't listening. I don't have a beef with the game other than that it doesn't have as much lore as Morrowind, which I think is a pretty agreeable statement. Oblivion had some good graphics, there's your positive trait, now leave me alone.

This. These polls are generally biased in favor of the second generation Elder Scrolls games.

Your point was that Oblivion has no/little lore. To anyone who goes through this list, please point out any problems. I made the entire thing, so it's bound to have some mistakes in it. Here is a list of most(some don't seem to be in the UESP) of the books/letters added to the series by Oblivion(and books don't even make up almost all of Oblivion's lore, as much more of it is in visuals, events, and dialogue):

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:A_Life_of_Uriel_Septim_VII
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Rislav_The_Righteous
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ahzirr_Traajijazeri
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:History_of_the_Fighters_Guild
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fire_and_Darkness
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Five_Tenets
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Followers_of_the_Gray_Fox
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Hiding_With_the_Shadow
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Manifesto_Cyrodiil_Vampyrum

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Necromancer%27s_Moon
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pension_of_the_Ancestor_Moth
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Beggar
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Thief
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Warrior
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:King
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Argonian_Account,_Book_1
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Argonian_Account,_Book_2

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Argonian_Account,_Book_3
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Argonian_Account,_Book_4
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Beggar_Prince
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Exodus
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Knightfall
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Purloined_Shadows
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Refugees
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Thief_of_Virtue
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Adabal-a

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Amulet_of_Kings
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Battle_of_Sancre_Tor
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Before_the_Ages_of_Man
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cleansing_of_the_Fane
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Daughter_of_the_Niben
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dwemer_History_and_Culture
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fall_of_Vitharn
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Last_King_of_the_Ayleids
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Legendary_Sancre_Tor

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lost_Histories_of_Tamriel
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Remanada
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_1
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_2
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_3
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_4
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_5
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_6
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_7

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Treatise_on_Ayleidic_Cities
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Advances_in_Lock_Picking
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ayleid_Reference_Text
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bark_and_Sap
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Calcinator_Treatise
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:De_Rerum_Dirennis
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:An_Elytra%27s_Life
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:From_Frog_to_Man
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fundaments_of_Alchemy
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Heavy_Armor_Repair

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:History_of_Lock_Picking
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Immortal_Blood
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Light_Armor_Repair
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Liminal_Bridges
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lithnilian%27s_Research_Notes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Liturgy_of_Affliction
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Living_Woods
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mace_Etiquette
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Magic_from_the_Sky

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Manual_of_Armor
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Manual_of_Arms
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Manual_of_Spellcraft
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Manual_of_Xedilian
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Predecessors
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Proper_Lock_Design
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Reality_%26_Other_Falsehoods
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Saints_and_Seducers
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Shivering_Apothecary

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Shivering_Bestiary
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Souls,_Black_and_White
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Standing_Stones
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties_of_Daedra
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Way_of_the_Exposed_Palm
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Agnar%27s_Journal
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Amantius_Allectus%27_Diary
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ancotar%27s_Journal
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:A_Bloody_Journal
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Brenus_Astis%27_Journal

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cap%27n_Dugal%27s_Journal
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cindanwe%27s_Notebook
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dar-Ma%27s_Diary
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Diary_of_Springheel_Jak
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Doors_of_Oblivion
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Drothan%27s_Field_Journal
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Drothan%27s_Journal
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Father_of_the_Niben

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Frostcrag_Spire_Memoirs
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Gelebourne%27s_Journal
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Greywyn%27s_Journal
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Grommok%27s_Journal
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Journal_of_the_Lord_Lovidicus
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Log_of_the_Emma_May
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Path_of_Transcendence
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ramblings_of_Audens_Avidius
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Red_Kitchen_Reader
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sacred_Witness
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sir_Amiel%27s_Journal
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Traelius%27_Journal

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Traitor%27s_Diary
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Macabre_Manifest
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Report:_Disaster_at_Ionith
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Warp_in_the_West_(book)
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mysterium_Xarxes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tome_of_Unlife
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Legend_of_Krately_House
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mannimarco,_King_of_Worms
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Ravings_of_Fenroy
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Song_of_Hrormir
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Black_Arts_On_Trial

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Myth_or_Menace%3F
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:16_Accords_of_Madness,_v._VI
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:16_Accords_of_Madness,_v._IX
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:16_Accords_of_Madness,_v._XII
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bible_of_the_Deep_Ones
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Blessings_of_Sheogorath
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Divining_the_Elder_Scolls
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Heretical_Thoughts

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Modern_Heretics
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries_1
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries_2
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries_3
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries_4
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Myths_of_Sheogorath
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Opusculus_Lamae_Bal_ta_Mezzamortie
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Prophet_Arden-Sul
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Shezarr_and_the_Divines
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ten_Commands:_Nine_Divines
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Trials_of_St._Alessia

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Glories_and_Laments
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Anvil
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Bravil
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Bruma
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Cheydinhal
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Chorrol
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_the_Imperial_City
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Leyawiin
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_New_Sheoth
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Skingrad

About 140 are on that list.

Wow thats all I gotta say. You took me out of turn again, not to mention didn't even address my points specifically to you in a previous post.

Morrowind added to the lore of the series more than Oblivion.

Half of those books are journals or so menial I can't believe you would include them. In addition to the fact I was talking about Oblivion and not the Shivering Isles. :rolleyes: Find me all the books that were in Morrowind that weren't in Oblivion and then we'll talk.

Now I do applaud you for wasting so much time on something completely off topic. Can we get back to talking about the main quest please, specifically the points I made that you haven't countered yet.


And I did the liberty of deleting the menial ones that shouldn't even be counted (Manuals, Guides), the Journals and the ones added by DLC. So that "140" becomes about 70, which should be even less, but you made every book in a series individual, which I didn't when I counted Morrowind books. I wanna look up books added by DF but I don't have the time.

Morrowind had around 160 books not counting each in a series. I rest my case.

Now, can we get back on topic? Please.

You didn't HAVE to get every town to contribute to Bruma. Is was an optional quest. Politics seemed to just be thrown in at the end. There wasn't enough about it.

And Daggerfall had multiple endings, which was nice, but it was awful for the next games. There was the whole confusing Warp in the West.


I'd have to vote Morrowind. All I can compare it to is Oblivion and Arena, though. Unfortunatly, I have a huge bug in Daggerfall, an can't advance far enough into the main quest. :sadvaultboy:

And those "politics" were just the same go into Oblivion gates quests. :shrug:

What was so political about Morrowind's main quest?

By the way, Daggerfall has about 90 books, including those you would find to be menial and those in a series individually. Morrowind introduced about 240, including those from expansions/plug-ins, those would find to be menial, and those in a series individually. So, Daggerfall-Morrowind-Oblivion is 90-240-140. Maybe I'm missing something, but Oblivion doesn't seem lacking in lore, contrary to what you seem to wave around as a fact about Oblivion. It introduced more than Daggerfall and introduced plenty more in visuals/quests, following Bethesda's "show me, don't tell me" motto for Oblivion. 140 is a nice, cozy number. If Oblivion has little lore, Daggerfall has none and Morrowind only has a mediocre amount. How would you react if TES V actually didn't have much lore(introducing 0 books, for example)?

Having only played Oblivion and Morrowind, I have to say I liked Morrowind's plot just a little bit more than Oblivion's. This probably has to do with it being my first experience with the Elder Scrolls, but I also thought the characters were stronger (BRING BACK CAIUS COSADES, PLEASE!), and the plot was more varied, going from simple fetch quests in some cave to rescuing Mehra Milo. However, I will say I liked how Oblivion didn't make you THE central hero, just a very significant person. I also really liked Oblivion's story, too. In fact, I'm doing another playthrough now.

I think another huge problem is people aren't distinguishing the difference between plot and story.

The plot is the plan and scheme of the work, the story is narrative. The latter is influenced by emotion, the former isn't.

I'd gander the majority of people here loved the story of Morrowind, as it presented itself very well. As far as plot goes, it's what I've said earlier.

Morrowind's plot made you think. Oblivion's plot made you follow a quest arrow.

That said, I still liked the Daggerfall one the most, despite some shortcomings. I guess I prefer to not be the hero, just someone who's tipping the scales one way or another.

Was Arena's ever changed in lore in some major way(for example, did the Eternal Champion ever meet more people or go to more places than shown in Arena?)?

Dude, I never said Morrowind's main quest is political. :rolleyes: Maybe if you'd read my post where I explained myself earlier you would stop taking me out of turn, but no.

And dude did you look at my list of yours I corrected? There isn't 140 unique books in Oblivion. Half of those were journals. You skewered the number in order to try to prove me wrong, in addition to adding books from expansions, which I did not count.

Oblivion did not have as much lore as Morrowind. Now I would appreciate it if you would stop putting words in my mouth. Oblivion added lore, but not as much as Morrowind

So now, stop talking about the books, it's so off topic, and go back and read my big post I wrote that is on topic because I didn't write that for my health

That isn't the same thing as a nice, unbiased, "Oblivion didn't add as much lore as Morrowind," which we can all agree that, in terms of sheer volume, is true. Your argument this entire time has been that Oblivion basically contributed nothing to the Elder Scrolls lore, which is crap. Don't try to change your argument now, sir.

Wow dude, what I said before was an exaggeration, nice job interpreting that. :rolleyes: Oblivion basically contributed nothing to the lore, compared to it's predecessors. There, are we all clear now? It's gonna be okay I promise. Someone criticizing Oblivion isn't the end of the world bud.

Now can we please get back on topic, like seriously.

All we really know is, the EC escaped from jail (confirmed in Oblivion), went all over Tamriel in the most dangerous dungeons, gathered the pieces of the staff of chaos, and defeated Jagar Tharn and saved Uriel.

That is pretty much it, nothing else.

Of course it's not the end of the world, but I don't understand the bad rap that Oblivion gets on these forums. You're still wrong, BTW, as seti18 noted it actually adds more than Daggerfall, but that's alright, far be it from me to break down your ill-conceived notions of the game that you insist on spouting as gospel