For me, Morrowind and Oblivion followed a similar premise. They use many similar themes. Morrowind delivered on it better. Those similar themse?

In each case, you are "the one". In each case, your "one-ness" is explained in a dream at the game's beginning. In Morrowind, you're the one who had the dream yourself. In Oblivion's case, some dude runs up and babbles on about how he had the dream. In an effort to make it "cool again" this guy winds up being the emperor and is voiced by patrick stewart. Sorry. Not quite. Good actor, though. In each case, you have to "bring the people together" (morrowind- hortator and nerevarine.. oblivion it's allies for bruma and big battle). In each case, the major player who helps you is a dude who delt with god toys (emperor and amulet, vivec and profane tools). In each case, there's a god thing who doesn't like the current world and wants to re-write the world (morrowind- dagoth, oblivion- dagon). In each case, they have sidekicks (Camoran could waste the ash vampires, though, imo). I could keep going if you want a giant paragraph. Get the idea? Oblivion is trying to play Morrowind's cowbell. It wants to "be cool too".

I begin to realize that's where all the Morrowind vs. Oblivion crapola came from that I read about for years before finally getting Oblivion. People who started in one game see this "re-used" or "wannabe" stuff in the other. It's the natural way the human mind gets a take on things. Morrowind was there first, though. Let sales figures define the rest. No need for debate as far as I'm concerned.

They should've just done something different with Oblivion. Let it be it's own thing. It would've avoided all this nonsense altogether. Ironic that in the games themselves, you're bringing people together. Yet, the games themselves drove the customers apart. I don't know if they were trying to re-capture the boldness that Morrowind had displayed, or if they just didn't have any new ideas. If Oblivion kinda blew up in their faces like I think it did, maybe they'll have motivation to use different themes this time.

Story-wise, Daggerfall was the odd one out. Broke the mold in that there's no big, evil bad guy wanting to devour the world. No god battles. No big, evil wizards. Well, I take that back.. there is a big, evil wizard. Yet, he's just one of the players you can work for. Lots of bad things could happen if you don't see it through to the end. Lots of bad things could happen if you do. Lots of gray lines. Very unique in it's way.

So, I'm torn and can't vote. Daggerfall- unique. Morrowind- typical "big bad guy" thing, but just so very well handled. Oblivion? Good story, sure, but just not quite up there due to the re-hashed ideas. If Oblivion had been there first? Well, you never know.

Actually ... not quite.

You know what would make you "the one" in Oblivion?

When, if you let Martin die (or even kill him yourself), instead of getting a message "OMG, you stupid let the hero die! [I'm a wuss, let me reload and try again] [RAGE QUIT!!!]", you'd get one "Martin is dead. Guess the prophecy wasn't true after all. [Too bad. Let's continue being awesome.]" and then Mehrunes Dagon comes to IC and lays waste to it, until you get strong enough to face him directly and kill him (which is already possible in vanilla game ...). Then Akatosh revives his statue, swoops down, congratulates you and explains to you that you do, in fact, carry the Dragon's blood in you, and he might explain that later - say, after your death when you have some time - but it basically involves people getting it on with other people they aren't married to. But now he has to go, got a bit of fun hunting to do with Hircine and later a tea party at Azura's place, so take care and be as awesome as ever, not that you need any help from him. The statue turns back to stone, everybody storms in and thinks it was Akatosh himself who killed Dagon and not you, and you have only the options to either convince them otherwise by driving a sword through their guts, the ungrateful lot, or saying "Screw you guys - I'm going home." and riding off into the sunset.

I liked the Morrowind one better, mainly because of the difficulty and challenge. It took forever to get throught the Morrowind plot (including the expantions)

Also the guilds took longer to rank up in, making the guild plots seem endless. The veriety of the guilds made it seem even more endless, I don't think I have even been through all of the guild plots in Morrowind.

As for Oblivion, you can beat it (with expantions) in just a couple of weeks including the guilds plots as well.

The thing about Morrowind is that the plot isn't really all about the story of the Nerevarine.

The intrigue in Morrowind's main quest is that of what really happened those thousands of years ago on Red Mountain. Getting to the bottom of that story (which, do we ever really know what exactly happened?) and learning the histories of Nerevar and Dumac and the Tribunal and how Azura plays a role in all of it, is really the most interesting thing.

Oblivion had none of that.

I voted for Morrowind, but I haven't finished Daggerfall, I'm working on it now.

Well, I haven't played Daggerfall (need to get round to that at some point), but I greatly prefer Morrowinds plot over Oblivions. In Morrowind, I couldn't escape the feeling I was just being manipulated - by the emperor, by the tribunal, by azura, even by the nine: *spoilers*

(the avatar of Talos appearing in ghostgate really made me realize that the nereveraine is just a pawn used by all these powers. And of course, as we find out from nu-hatta, we benefit Dagon greatly as well) And when one finally meets Dagoth Ur, doubts creep in further as he doesn't seem any more or less evil than the tribunal or the daedra.

*spoilers end*


In Oblivion it felt just like childish good vs evil. The plot is more interesting when things like the entantiomorph between Martin and Mankar are thrown in, but this seems more accidental than anything else.

Yeah, like I told my friend last night when he first started Morrowind, once you think you know exactly whats going on and who's your ally and who's your enemy, you realize that you truly can't tell, that every major player in the mainquest is grey morally, and you are just a pawn struggling to come to grips with the situation.

Bleh, Daggerfall isn't getting the right attention it deserves. Too many people against it, because they're too lazy to play it through, read about it, or even install it. Arena, Morrowind, and Oblivion are practically the same, only different when it comes to semantics.

The grandeur of the plot lines present in Morrowind and Oblivion both provided an entertaining and intriguing experience.

I chose Morrowind for the unique experience associated with an alien land and the intense competition involved the Dunmeri culture. Oblivion seemed to be more straight forward, though none-the-less impressive.

I guess I don't really see how Morrowind is similar to Oblivion or Arena at all, aside from a big baddie at the end. :shrug: Daggerfall does have a great story, but you can't lump Morrowind with cliche Oblivion.

Both are save the world from some big bad trying to create an apocalypse, and only you can stop it.
Arena is the same, except without the apocalypse part

Thats pretty shortsighted. Morrowind had a lot more to it than just that. It made you think way more than Oblivion. It's not all about the destination, it's about the journey.

Start out as a nobody, discover a plot to conquer Tamriel by an ancient threat, unite the people of the land and ultimately defeat aforementioned ancient evil? Yeah, I can't imagine why anyone would think the two were similar. :glare:

And as I mentioned in a different thread, Morrowind's really just as cliche as anything else in the Elder Scrolls games. A race of dark-skinned, red-eyed elves who follow (among other things) a malicious spider goddess and who live in a society of city-states ruled by the most powerful houses. Throw in a little xenophobia and all Bethesda did was water down the drow, throw in some native American culture and drag the whole lot out of the Underdark, complete with giant bugs and fungus. Not to say that I don't love Morrowind-- compared to the majority of fantasy RPGs, it's practically art. But to pretend that it's any less influenced by DnD stereotypes than Daggerfall or Oblivion is folly. What a grand and intoxicating innocence. How could you be so naive?

I don't think Dagoth Ur wanted to "create a apocalypse". The only one who wanted downright destruction was Mehrunes Dagon.

I never said anything about DnD and the Dunmer not being cliche but thanks for trying to put words in my mouth. And you really can't simplify either plot into a sentence like you just did.

What I'm saying is Oblivion was simply Dagon invading, find the heir bs. Morrowind had a bunch behind the scenes. The conflict of the Temple and Dissident Priests. Azura vs Tribunal. Dagoth Ur not being as black and white as Dagon. Looking back at the War of the First Council, trying to find the truth. Struggling to understand where your loyalties truly lie, and who the real villain is.

The end product may be the same as OB, but the backstory and the events are a whole hell of a lot more fleshed out.

You just did simplify Oblivion's plot into a sentence! You literally just did that thing that you said can't be done! And the implication when you make a distinction between Morrowind and "cliche Oblivion" is that Morrowind is not cliche.

I think the difference between Morrowind and Oblivion is that a lot of Morrowind's expanded lore (books, dialogue, etc.) were focused on fleshing out the main quest-- as you mentioned, the War of the First Council, the rise of the Tribunal, etc. while Oblivion's was focused more on the province itself, and a lot of it had to do with the Ayleids and the rise of the Imperials. In Morrowind, it was all interconnected-- the Dwemer, the previous wars, the conflicts with the Temple, because the story was that of an ancient threat, previously thought defeated, returning to extract bloody vengeance on the Imperials, the Temple, and the Nerevarine, so all of that history came back into the light. In Oblivion, while Mehrunes Dagon is by no means a new threat, nothing like the Oblivion crisis had threatened Cyrodiil before, so the history of Cyrodiil really had nothing to do with it, and served only to flesh out the province and the history of the Imperials and their culture. It was completely extraneous to the main plot, there only for those who sought it out, whereas in Morrowind, you couldn't help but dive deeper into the lore. I don't necessarily agree with that decision, but to say that there isn't anything to Oblivion's lore besides the main quest is bullcrap.

Quiet, Tzeenchian! You very well know what I mean. The difference is one is blighted and the other is completely destroyed (which is actually an impossible task set down my Alduin)

My favorite plot is the one for Morrowind because of the heavy emphasis on politics and intrigue.

Well I was referring to Morrowind more or less. But in any medium you can summarize like that but you miss a lot of details. And Morrowind had more of those details that make it harder to sum up and actually do justice. If that makes sense.


Actually it's not. What lore was added from Oblivion we didn't already know? And on that point the lore we did know was changed drastically. I didn't find anything that fleshed Cyrodiil out in the least bit. I mean really if they wanted to flesh Cyrodiil out they should have some books explaining where Sutch and Mir Corrup went and how Tiber Septim changed the land into a regular forest. But no, the books still refer to Cyrodiil as a jungle.

Anyway, that's off topic. But the point remains is the main quest of Oblivion just feels rushed and tacked on to me. Remember in Morrowind the rumors about the heirs, and the legions, what happened to that? Would certainly be better than save the cheerleader Martin, save the world.

HA! You're joking right? Daggerfall WAS ALL politics and intrigue! There was no big baddy, it was a bunch of powerful rulers, the Blades, the Underking (or Zurin Arctus), and an extremely powerful and old necromancer (Mannimarco) trying to get their hands on the giant stompy robot of doom to take over the bay area, become a god, or reunite with his soul.

There was no good and evil, just factions and politics.

Ugh, this is exactly why DF doesn't get the attention it deserves. People play MW and OB only too much, despite DF being free to download legally.

Hellmouth, you know Daggerfall is a distant memory on these forums. Morrowind is the first Elder Scrolls game, remember? Arena and Daggerfall don't exist.

I agree with you about Daggerfall's politics. Speaking of Morrowind's big baddy, people say he was misunderstood, but if he isn't the big baddy, then why can't I join him?

Dagoth Gares: "Drop your weapon and join him."

Me: "I dropped my weapon, now will you please stop attacking me? I want to join him."

Dagoth Gares: "Well, you really can't despite being asked throughout the main quest, so I'm still going to have to kill you."

Regardless, Morrowind's main quest remains my favorite. Daggerfall definitely deserves recognition for its politics, but I just like the story of the Nerevarine better. I kind of like being the hero, but if they could introduce more politics into the whole hero thing(and some choices, such as the one waved in your face all the time but never available to you in Morrowind), that would be great.

Ok Daggerfall was all poltics and intrigue. I get it. That doesn't mean Morrowind didn't. :shrug: Not as much as Daggerfall, but it was still there. And more of it then OB.

And seti you can't judge Morrowind for not being able to join House Dagoth despite being invited, I was actually in the Mythic Dawn in Cyrodiil and couldn't go any farther with that. That's not the fault of bad storytelling, but just time constraints and lazyness. And there's mods for House Dagoth :shrug: There's something that needs to be brought from DF, more main quest choices.

I don't know. I had to gain the trust of the counts/countesses of Cyrodiil as I had to gain the trust of various groups in Morrowind, but in Oblivion, I was doing it to crown the new emperor of Tamriel, and not defeating Dagon brought back more of that "I'm not the great, big, good guy" feeling, but rather made me feel more like someone who just caught up in something beyond my comprehension and capabilities of achieving. Regardless, both Morrowind and Oblivion follow that simple linear progression to a big, bad guy(Dagoth Ur, Mankar Camoran). Neither was more complex, really. As Hellmouth said, they're basically the same.

The Mythic Dawn didn't say "join me, join me" all the time with generous promises. House Dagoth did.

Really, you can't think of anything that Oblivion added to the lore? Nothing about the Ayleid culture, or the decline of their empire? Saint Alessia's rise to prominence or the importance/history of the Amulet of Kings? Forget this, you're obviously committed to hating the game, to the point of just blindly shouting "No!" to any positive trait that someone might point out about it.

I wasn't joking. I'm sorry but I haven't played Arena or Daggerfall so I wouldn't know. I was simply comparing Morrowind which was the first Elder Scrolls I played back in 2003 to Oblivion and between the two Morrowind was definitely the most politically oriented.

See, what I'm trying to say, is yes, both games have the same premise, but Morrowind had a lot more detail behind it. You are taking me completely out of turn. I never said the plots are any different. I'm saying Morrrowinds had so much behind it. Oblivion's MQ is one you can pick up and play while Morrowind's is slower and more deliberate with a lot more complexity. And you brought up two points, that I'll address separately to detail my point:

1) You mentioned earning the trust of the counts/countesses, and it's similarity to earning the trusts of the Great House councilors. That is an accurate statement, I completely agree. However, the difference is here, and perfectly highlights what I'm trying to say: In OB the quests were all close Oblivion gates, while in Morrrowind you had to get the votes, but there was always something else, that made things different, Sarethi's son, dealing with Dren diplomatically, all the bribes for the Hlaalu, getting the crazy Telvanni to vote you. And not to mention the Ashlanders all made you do something different. See what I'm saying is yes, on the surface the premise is identical, but under that surface in Morrowind is more depth.

2) You mentioned not being the "big good guy who was caught up in something beyond your comprehension and capabilities of achieving." Well thats not exactly accurate. Martin needed you, he couldn't have escaped Kvatch or went into Paradise by himself. He could have found someone else, just as the Empire could have released a different prisoner into Vvardenfell. But both times, the champions were chosen for a reason. The Nerevarine and CoC were both destined to be the Nerevarine and the CoC. You weren't caught up in something you shouldn't be a part of, because you were supposed to be a part. But anyway that wasn't my point. In Morrowind I don't believe you're the big good guy who is caught up in something within your comprehension, simply because yes, you are supposed to destroy Dagoth Ur and the false gods, but was it really a good thing to do, or were you just furthering Azura's agenda? Dagoth Ur had noble intentions, and the Tribunal always cared deeply for the Dunmer. Who were you to destroy them? They may or may not have murdered your previous life, but for their people. If it wasn't for them Akavir would've invaded and Mehrunes Dagon woulda destroyed Mournhold. Azura wanted them dead because she was selfish. I didn't feel like a good guy at the end, I felt like a pawn that had been coned into doing a Daedric Princes dirty work. And what of the Empire, they released you and wanted to use you as their pawn as well. The Morrowind main quest left a bad taste in my mouth at the end, in a good way because I felt as though I had no idea if what I had done was the right or wrong thing, in a way that Oblivion did not.

3) And with the House Dagoth/Mythic Dawn thing, you are being hypocritical. They are the exact same. Which is what you are arguing about the rest of the main quest. But you tried to twist it to disagree with me and you are going against the exact point you are trying to make.


There was some lore about the Ayleids, and regular Oblivion barely added on to it besides letting us know the Ayleids have a hard on for dangerous traps. And we knew about Alessia and OB just showed you can smash the Amulet and turn into a Dragon. And explain how me disagreeing with you means I'm committed to hating the game. I play both games equally and point out flaws in both so don't act like you know who I am based on the points I make mkay?