But the heavy troopers all seem to be in places where you have to walk through a narrow door to reach them

The one's I can think of are in the reception, which is open with the reception desk to take cover from.
And then the ones at the General, which, well, lob a couple of grenades in there and they should be dead since they are cornered.

I get the first one, but the area with the general is big enough where they could just run around until the Legion rus out of grenades (I hardly ever see them using them anyways) I'm not saying the NCR would win, but they could probably make it a pyhricc(sp) victory.

Well yeah the one's by the general have a damn good position, I found Oliver harder to fight than Lanius really.
Still, there are ways to kill them off without heading directly towards them, the final room where you meet oliver is closed off, so lobbing in grenades could work to damage their forces or at least give a decent enough shock approach allowing the legionnaires to storm it after the grenades have exploded.
A different approach is to heavily trap the area and just starve them out, either they try to escape and get caught in a myriad of traps or they die from hunger, or Legion attacks them when they are too weak to fight back.
It's a great defensive position for a head on attack.
But if the enemy does not attack head on but does one of the other things then they're screwed.
Hardly think Lanius would care though, he'd send legionnaires in anyway until they run out of bullets and then storm the General himself.

I've never seen a legionaire throw a grenade. I'm assuming we're talking about the respective factions without the considerable aid of the currier. I just loaded an NCR save, dismissed my companions and watched the battle as best I could. i can sum it up thusly:
Now I'll fire up my CL save and see how the battle turns out from the other side.

-gunny out.

Put that one in spoilers, just in case.

what fighting a stuffed dummie, or slaughtering a bunch of tribals.

That doesn t really count as fighting. Only fighting I ve heard cl being in was vs NCR at the same place and they got tricked and they lost. OOOOOOOOHHHHHHHH I ve killed 100 nomads

NCR vet and normal rangers have seen a real threat and, wiki says they have pretty much silenced the bos in cali.

BOS vs nomads wonder which would be a harder opponent???
wonder which would make you hard. cl talks the talk NCR has walked the walk, and walked it on CL too. Good luck to the10s of thousnds of men that have trained 17 out 24hrs in a day since they were 2 to run into mgs, miniguns, backed by by other decent weapons and trained, experienced snipers.

CL trained to die.......I have to stop posting about this.....

1. Since they have marksman carbines, those tesla staffs, super sledges and anti-material rifles I think they have the availability to grenades too. Maybe the developers overlooked giving them some, but considering their other equipment I think that regular grenades are available to them.
2. I thought we were discussing lore and not gameplay, in gameplay it makes no sense how NCR can be so strong over Legion considering their equipment and vastly superior training and tactics (comparing the avarage legionnaire to the avarage NCtRooper.).
It'd be like comparing the gameplay of Enclave in FO3 to the lore of Enclave, makes no sense.
Lore>Gameplay.

I know I might sound defensive but honestly the gameplay in Vegas is messed up when considering Legion's lore.
They're nerfed basically.
So I wouldn't judge Legion or NCR by the gameplay standards.

This is what should be expected. With the NCR's better armor and maybe better weaponry they will win. I mean cmon by the time 3 legonaires are sent across the damn they would have either already gotton shot by the troops or the rangers. With CL's poor weapons and armor...tactics cant always make up for that. Further more it even shows that the Vets are supeior and knocked out the centurions before they could even do any real damage. If the CL can only hold the bottom half there going to get slaughtered and wont beable to move up. The NCR has this win in there hands.

The Legion just "win" by strength of numbers. A platoon of snipers on the dam couldn't pick of wave after wave of Legion, eventually they would get over-run. The "cannon-fodder" approach to war. Soldiers come cheap - enslave the tribe, and you either become a legionary or get cruxified. No choice. Conscription by force.

Whereas the NCR, every soldier costs money. In training, equipment, food, etc. The NCR can't afford to match Caesar's numbers, so they go for Black Rangers and Snipers instead. Hoping that the extra cost in making these "elite" pays off, and they don't have to send the farmers and misfits in.

You re making my point for me CL has to attack, I have been saying this for 4 pages now. Its not an even a fair fight for cl in who has the tactical advantage, who has better fighting tactics, who has fought more deadly opponents to learn from, who has more dt across the board, who has better weapons overall, who has better real time command and control and change on the fly ability.

If some ncr guys are beating cl in even up pc cage matches, then there is no way they will beat them in this situation. CL is all writing and talk NCR has canon history and several tac. advantages.

CL will be turned back, or they will keep running forward until they die.

Another note on the whole "Well NCR has the Heavy Troopers".
Does it matter?
BOS had the heavy troopers at Helios One and they got their ass beat out of them because NCR had the numbers.
Well.
Legion now has the numbers over NCR.
And their average legionnaire is far better trained than the average NCtRooper.
So even if they have these "Heavy Troopers" which could mow down tons of legionnaires they will still fall just like Mojave Chapter did at Helios One.
It's a good irony in it really.

but in a lore battle there will 1000s of more men from each side. CL biggest strength is shear numbers. The game does not show us this, and anything you did or saw in game can t be taken into account besides what you heard about the 2, and the weapon types and stats of the different levels of soilders.

I just did a CL playthrough on the dam.


Well, if we're discussing arbitrary interpretations of a story that has not been canonized, they i guess it'll just boil down to a I'm right/you're wrong argument. We have no idea what sort of forces were mustered for the battle (if we ignore the gameplay, that is) and I suppose we'll have to wait to find out. Since I'm not one for arguing just for the sake of argument, you guys can carry on without me. I wanted to address the tactical and strategic situation, as I saw it, throw a little histoy in to show some parellels to what was happening and what we could expect, but I'm not gonna debate your interpretation of the canon vs. mine. Have a nice day, now, ya'll hear?

-Gunny out.

I thought about this too. BOS was grossly out numbered, because they r retards. NCR should not be outnumbered 20:1 liks bos was in this lore battle, because they recruit. I could see 6:1, but the tactical advantage, weapons, armour, fighting tactics,c&c will make up for the numbers. 6 : 1 is not 20:1

But they don't have the tactical advantage, they're cornered from both sides of the dam with legionnaires swarming from below too.
They don't have the superior weapons, they have weapons on par with Legion with their recruits having slightly worse.
They don't have superior armor either, only the Heavy Troopers which are a handful and at badly placed areas.
Overall they don't have the better fighting tactics either since a standard legionnaire is trained at least 5 times better than a standard trooper.
So not only are they outnumbering them but they are on equal terms in equipment and are swarming from every side of the dam.

Lore wise the Legion should wipe the floor with the NCR without any intervention by the Courier.

Gameplay wise, the opposite happens.

Thats what it boils down to really.

When did people start taking Lore more seriously than Gameplay? The explanation is there in the visual, the Lore is there to provide a background for what will happen in the game.

again BOTH SIDES WILL HAVE 1000s MORE MEN OF ALL LEVELS. What you see in game or what you did in game can not count in a lore battle. CL is said to have 10 000s of thousands of men I see like 80 in the whole game. Ceasers camp has like 25 guys there that can t be right.

I know.
Legion still outnumbers them.

incinerator950, lore>gameplay.

gabriel, defending is a tactial advantage. Real life has shown us this time and time againt. From top to botton NCR has better armour, from top to bottom ncr has better weapons. The weakest troops on both sides will make up the majority of the numbers NCRs trooper have more dt than cl low level scrubs. We know they have better weapons, becausd they all have guns.

Start a new game go to nipton follow those guys when they leave, they will walk straight into SGTAsher and his men at Search light thosd guys will kill your low level guy and all cl from nipton without losing 1 man. I have done this they killed me and all cl from nipton.
ed e was still alive after I had falled all cl from nipton died before me and I was a very low level. NCR trooper guns and dt will crush low level cl even with me trying to kill ncr, because that was my cl guy.

Vet rangers have brush guns have you used that gun?????

Way better that ac They has higher dt. Plus there is no reason why NCR would not use the ap rounds

Sorry if I may be interrupting this exchange regarding the Legion and the NCR, but I like Mr. House. His plans are very interesting; raising money to rebuild society starting with Vegas. Think about, money is the root of everything. NCR no longer has there gold deposits and pays with worthless money, but Mr. House could raise capital like no-ones business. He also has a very nice army (I'd like to see 1,000 legion try to kill just 400 Mk II Securitrons).

My other favorite faction is and always will be the Enclave. People typically think there plan for rebuilding the waste is horrible, but aren't all the ways? Look the Enclave's idea calls for killing a lot of people, but it also kills every mutant/ghoul/other horrible creature. That means after they do this the people don't have to live in fear. They can rebuild without any radiation contamination and the heavily equipped Enclave soldiers can finish off anything that might still be remaining. The NCR wants to establish government (which is on very shaky grounds) by taking over settlements, but what happens when they do? People are still radiated meaning their kids will have deformities from the radiation and then their kids will have the same thing. People will be killed off by mutants when they try to expand and settle and the only thing the NCR can do is send troops to kill these threats, but there are far more mutants across the United States then there are NCR troops. That means countless peoples lives will be lost trying to suppress the threat, plus the NCR will be fighting with the Legion, again lowering the chances of a proper government/safe wasteland.

I'm not saying the Enclave's plan is perfect, but if you look at the big picture (short term it doesn't look good, but long term it makes sense) it is probably the best. Instead of waiting for the mutants to be killed over another 100 years the Enclave can kill them all in 1. Instead of people dying a slow death from radiation poisoning and having their kids die from it to, they can go quickly. There will be no warring factions and people can expand, settle the wasteland, and know they won't walk into a clan of deathclaws and get ripped to shreds.

A man after my own heart :thumbsup:; the sensible Enclave supporters have needed a boost in numbers for a long time, unfortunately not everyone see's the big pitcure and just brands them Nazis.

I'm getting really tired of this discussion.
It's going in circles.
You keep posting the same damn thing over and over and I keep posting the same thing over and over back.
Getting us nowhere.
You wanna know my response to these points?
Go read my earlier posts.

Until you get some new arguments which progress this debate I'm not going to continue.

I tend to like "defeated" factions; the ones that have lost all their pride and are willing to open their eyes rather than blindly fight for a cause no matter what. The Great Khans and the Enclave, for example.

The Great Khans, although they're thuggish drug dealers, are actually fairly nice. They're open-minded, willing to negotiate and willing to avoid a fight rather than charge ahead into one out of hate or pride. They don't shoot the player character on sight even if they hate him/her. They don't run around starting crap with other factions; they just sit in Red Rock Canyon and sell drugs (trying to avoid conflict as they do so). The Great Khans are more peaceful than other factions in the sense that they have no purpose they're fighting for. NCR will die for democracy, the Legion will die for the will of Caesar, BoS will die for technology, but the Great Khans? They'll gladly say "f%&@ the drugs" and negotiate a way out of a conflict. They show a sort of respect for other groups that the others can sometimes lack.

Same for the Remnants of the Enclave. They've lost their purpose, and thus they're not demanding anything particular. They're willing to help with a cause; they may complain about the cause and need some talking to to convince them to help/not do anything drastic, but they don't go demanding anything from anyone: they're just soldiers now.


The Kings are also a great faction for the very same reason. All they do is protect the people of Freeside, and all they demand is that people respect the people of Freeside. And again, they're willing to negotiate.