@Psymon,
Once again you've pulled a thread completely off topic with your BAIN obsession.
This isn't the place to debate that.
I've suggested ways in the past to bring this into the forefront for discussion, either with a entirely new thread devoted to the pros and cons of an FCOM BAIN installation or through PM.
I can't for the life of me see how BAIN is going to help the opening poster though.
Mods will still have to be downloaded, installed, etc.
Is your method a new one that removes that feature from the modded game?
Let's kill the subject here before this thread is locked.

The "loading things thing" is the most important function of BAIN. Total awareness of all files in the DATA directory, where they came from and the priority level (in terms of overrides) of each.

Eliminate it and you might as well not bother with BAIN.

As for BAIN in FCOM, the basic fact of the matter is that the people in charge of the FCOM mods right now are too busy working on the mod itself to invest time in restructuring the archives, re-writing the install directions and dealing with the learning curve for a new type of install. That has to be accepted, not complained about.

That said, I am planning on making BCF files for the next releases of the FCOM mods that are under some control of the FCOM team. I will also attempt to write some basic install instructions for the resulting BAIN'd packages. I'm nearly certain I can convince Corepc to include links to the BCF files and the instructions in the FCOM threads and on the FCOM download pages.

When people start using them (hopefully) we'll see where the problems occur, and I'll try to improve them. With enough improvement, they may be able to go "official". Someday it may even result in the BAIN archives being the primary ones, if time is found to rewrite all the documentation.

However, due to BAIN having the BCF function, it's more likely that it will remain an optional extra. It's easier that way.

It's also important to note that BAIN is best at installing Resources. It's no better at installing ESPs and ESMs than doing it manually, due to an almost total lack of scripting. It will happily install completely conflicting ESPs and ESMs as long as they are "valid" by its standards. For installing ESPs and ESMs, OBMM is still king and OMOD conversion scripts are available.

If BAIN gets scripted installs, and someone writes comparable scripts for it, then it will be the best option by far, but it's not there yet.

"Can't be done" refers to a unified installer for FCOM mentioned by samuelthemule (specifically, annoying the FCOM team about it). No permission or purpose exists for altering Frans. Liberties are already being taken with Bob's Armory and WarCry that reduces the install of those mods to _two files each_. None of the rest of it is finalized enough to think about an installer.


BAIN makes installing more tedious the first time. It makes fixing errors far easier. It makes subsequent re-installs incredibly freakin' easy.

Kinda harsh, but this thread is definitely not the place for a BAIN vs non-BAIN FCOM discussion. However, bringing up BAIN as a way to make it easier, is completely valid.



BAIN makes mod installation much easier. End of story. Hence, it helps the OP. BAIN is all about easy installs and removals of mods, it is entirely pertinent to the OP. No, it won't download the mods for you, but then again, unless you're DYING for HDD space, you wouldn't have to redownload the mods anyways. There are additional features that allow for easy mod updates with BAIN that makes the whole process even easier.

Bottom line, BAIN setups can equate to very easy reinstalls of a modded Oblivion, ones that can boil down to simply how fast your CPU and HDD can handle the install.

It is not my place to open a thread about how you should package your mod.

I replied to the can't comment and of course that brought out team FCOM to silence the topic ... why I don't know. Ignoring the comment could have caused zero responses just as well. Why the topic is verboten is beyond me.

It is not impossible -- it is totally possible. Just be honest it is not a can't issue at all it is a won't issue.

Adding to what Showler said BAIN actually makes installation and uninstallation of esp/esm far more easy once BAIN basics are grasped. With it you can also track which esp/esm over-writes what other similarly named esp/esm. That is great for things like variations on Frans (with MOBS or not) where the esp are named the same.

And packaging in BAIN is nowhere near as tedious as omod scripting, much less installer scripting. It is all encoded in the folders of the packages - all very easy actually.

So anyway I think this does have to do with the OP because he is looking for an easier time of reinstalling and the good news is that BAIN, while a pain to set up at first, makes reinstall or serial reinstalling always easy. The only thing that could make it better still is if the packages came BAIN ready.

... my obsession ... really?

"Can't be done" refers to a unified installer for FCOM, you basically brought up your plead for BAIN-ifying FCOM for the umpteenth time. That was what I referred to.

I think you're taking 'can't be done' out of context. You're talking about BAIN, not a full 100% foolproof automatic installation of FCOM/OOO/MMM/Francesco's/Warcry.

Sorry if you were confused. Here is the response you were looking for, with regard to BAIN:

Thank you. It sped up a lot once I told it to ignore a few things.

No I'm not confused this is what I was referring to.

I even stated that if he were talking about a an exe that it is not possible if it includes a bash patch, but did give credence to it being technically possible.

But my reply was to the fact that "they love people begging for something they've been repeatedly told ..." My point was that this was true even for things that can be done. And once again this has proven to be true.

I've not come at anyone with any serious insults or debassing of character. True a few snarky remarks.

What is so verbotten about this topic? why is it that when it is brought up there is a team effort to silence it and portray me as obsessed and deranged and unable to learn? I've learned - that even reasoned arguments are not welcome.

Beepco - you are welcome!

You appear to be, but I'll simplify.

A unified installer, using an EXE or any other method CAN'T BE DONE because the team doesn't have the permission (or a reason) to alter the Fran's install, or to redistribute the other mods in an altered form. In theory, that could change in the future, but nobody is actively seeking such permission because there is no good reason for it. Install is possible now, and getting easier with each version.

A BAIN ready archive version of the FCOM mods WON'T BE DONE because the people who would have to do it and support it have no time and no great reason to do so. BCFs will allow easy conversion, and that should be enough.

You get flack every time you bring it up because you have been repeatedly told that it WON'T BE DONE (at least in the near future), but you continue to bring the subject up as though repetition will cause the FCOM team to suffer a sudden epiphany and decide you are right. They won't. They don't agree with you. You make it sound like they are actively working against the interests of the mod users. They take offense to that.

Don't want the flack? Accept reality and move on to a new debate.

I don't think anything has been proven, other than the fact that the FCOM team is still making every effort to help you understand where they're coming from. You insist on interpreting that as an attempt to 'silence' the topic, which it isn't. :shrug: And they wouldn't be human if they didn't get a little tired of seeing the same veiled accusations and answering the same question over and over again ... from the same person. The response from Shikishima that I quoted above is the official FCOM stance on BAIN, and it is unlikely that it will be hurried along by arguing or any other means--simply because there is only so much time in a day, and that is being devoted to the heavy modifications and testing that are well underway ... so that FCOM functions better when you play the game. That is important, too, don't you think?

Of course that is important.

But should it be the only thing that is important? An outdated readme, the main developer having all but outright abandoned the project, people moving to using new installer ... many many posts about how to install the overhaul. That has to eat up time.

Not having the time to configure BAIN packaging - It can be done by anyone in less time than this thread took to write to this point.

Let me ask - and I do hope you answer ... Do you Daemondarque, Arkngt, Showler, Shikishima - have FCOM (even parts) installed with BAIN?

Showler-

Thank you for being straight up and honest about the stance - thank you for simplifying your original post to state that is not an issue of can't and it is an issue of won't.
That I can accept even if I cannot understand it. Actually that was what I've been saying.

So, we have BAIN as a suggestion. Any others related to the topic at hand?

I took a week to install the game again with the mods I wanted...

bliviongate:

Psyom, it's Not any big deal to convert your own archives for Bain, and Tomlong has even written a guide as well, these guys are doing some Awsome work, and we get it Free.. I don't see any resaon to ask them for somthing they don't want, or don't even have athority, to do, actually they have been converting a Large part of it to Bain allready. :whistling:
Showler that's sounds exciting about Conversion Files, I've been curious to see how they work, it's generaly been eaiser to simple convert the archives manually... :goodjob:

Of course--since the Wryebash team is affiliated with ours, we test WB functions (new stuff almost every day) as well. But just for the record, I have quite a number of mods that are installed using OBMM too. Why? Because scripted installs make things go so much smoother for certain complex mods. Because I use shaders. And because sometimes I want to make file-by-file decisions on what gets overwritten, without having to pick through somebody's mod to take the unwanted changes out, just so I can install from BAIN.
From a user standpoint, practically anyone can make a simple archive; I suspect most who are inclined to use BAIN have already done FCOM too. But I would not say that with the mod versions being tested that it is at all necessary. OBMM (and even drag/n drop) will work just as well.

I just recently started a new game - new install, adding all the mods back in one by one. etc. The way I did it was to take a handful of mods that I absolutely can't game without. I started with those and got my game going. Once your get your character going you'll feel better and more excited to get going. Then daily as I went along I'd add more and more in - stuff I'd start to need, etc. Just take it a bit at a time and you'll be back to where you were. I still have a few things I've not loaded since I started last month, but I'll get around to it and they're things I don't really need right now anyway (have to finish certain quests before I load, for example).

I do have my FCOM in a BAIN install. It's entirely customized to me and leaves out most of the stuff I never bother with. I even BAIN'd Frans for my own convenience.

It would be fairly useless to anyone else, though.

As I take it most of those who have replied to me telling me it will not be worked on and is pointless to bother with use BAIN already to install their own copies of FCOM.

Yet a BAIN install would not be useful to others?

That is one part I just don't get. I originally had done like you and made BAIN package for just a FCOM version of FRANS - recently I decided to breakout the frans installers and run it as many times as necessary to get all the variations - I thought there would be many. There weren't it only took like 4 runthroughs to get all the variations and BAIN is again ideal in being able to overwrite similarly named esp by using higher numbered sub-packages.

So either an FCOM only version of Frans or a full version of Frans is doable and usable by anyone.

Knowing how simple it already is makes the argument 'we just don't have time' make no sense to me. How could this not help to bring FCOM to a final state? You know - out of beta. How drastic are the plugins going to change? And even if they did you know as well as I that it just means a jumble of sub-packages.

I've already listed many reasons and the pros elsewhere for BAIN - I've just not seen a good one for not using it.

The Frans installer is fine. Why would you have problems selecting a few options when the correct options are listed, in order, with pictures in some cases on the FCOM homepage. That hasn't changed in ages.

MMM, OOO & FCOM will have BCFs for the next version. That will have 100% of the benefits of BAIN without putting more work on Corepc. As it is, he's already working his butt off to make things more compatible and cut down on the number of alternative ESPs needed.

WarCry and Bob's Armory are getting simplified to just two files (plus the FCOM_WarCry and FCOM_Bob's Armory files). No alternatives or extra files needed for them. Can't make that install any easier.

Only one I can see an issue with is Armamentarium, and I don't use that one so I can't speak for it.

By the way, you've never talked about the problems with BAIN files, like the excessive size if you include all add-ons and variant versions.

edit: that should be my last post about this in this thread. The OP has probably long abandoned it by now. He could finish his re-install way faster than we can finish this discussion.

Oblivion has a rigid directory structure which you must use for development as well as gameplay, which is completely different from the BCF structure. Not a lot of fun to re-sort everything every time you push an update, and remember that nobody is getting paid to do it.

Well I've wondered how it is that if Dev is in contact with you all and has not abandoned the project then why is it that no one has access to change the readme, which remains out of date when you take into consideration the updates to UFCOM and MMM. It sure could use a few changes.

If the Frans installer is fine then why make a BAIN package like you did?

An answer to the file size issue - make the subpackages different downloads. You want core Frans get this you want Frans extras get that. etc.

Sorry to the OP if he was insulted by the thread contents. I personally do not feel it is my place to make a thread about the issue. I've given team FCOM ample http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1084204-bain-mod-installation-projects/page__view__findpost__p__15798012 to discuss it, but they haven't. And I've met with nothing but resistance and told that methods of installation are not subjects appropriate on the official threads.

If the OP wants help in using installers - I know mostly about BAIN (except this wizard feature I'm trying to figure out) and http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1084204-bain-mod-installation-projects/ on how to make the issue of reinstall pains go away.

Yeah I don't advocate the use of BCF - that is more needless complexity, as well as, endless work for the packager.

The point, for me, is simply by packaging in BAIN ready formats up front one would not have to worry about BCF or OMOD scripts. All the more appealing since there is no ini settings needed for scripted installs. The bulk of FCOM is plugins, patches, and load order.

The Frans inclusion in my BAIN package is because I'm a tester, and I can sometimes end up installing and uninstalling FCOM on a weekly basis. Frans really shouldn't interfere, since it has BSAs, but I like to be careful.

And a single unified installer package with multiple optional downloads. What a revolutionary idea.

I suppose being quoted out of context is fair at this point. But to be clear a unified install method does not mean all options in one download - it means all downloads use the same install method.