The fact you feel that way prove that he has less of a reason to tell you than anything if he has any ulterior motive, especially to control you or steer you to their side. He has been hiding stuffs behind many people's back, and done many heinous things and covering things up like with Virgil, but when it comes to you, he tells you everything.

If you tell him to screw off after Bunker Hill, one of the options has him tell you that he doesn't even consider the possibility that you might want to go against the Institute. In other words, he thinks you'll wholeheartedly support him no matter what he does because he's your son.

Needless to say, telling him off was one of my better moments.

Think things a step further. The Institute has already shown several times of being able to duplicate the appearance of a person, even de-age them in the synth boy's case. Nothing stops them from creating an anagram of an older looking synth based off of your features.

It'd be incredibly stupid to hand something he deems precious to a random scientist likely to be killed. Much safer to try to manipulate the SS emotionally.

He flat out tells you when you first meet him that he wanted to study extreme emotional response by using the synth boy and yourself. He could have just simply wanted to continue the experiment.

He could have hidden away important info within the boy to serve as a sort of archives to survive the Institute's destruction.

He could have literally cloned a complete copy of his memories and such to "live on" in the synth as a form of immortality.

Really, his motivations could be interpreted to being whatever you want. Including him being an inner carebear that just wants to be loved.

Continue the experiment by who? All of these sound like baseless accusations. And I love LOVE if he actually clone his memories into the synth because all of my characters love my son, so instead of a synth version of him at 10 years old, I would love to be able to be with the actual Shaun, regardless of what form, especially in the BoS ending, I feel terrible for betraying him. I was just telling you how my thought process was when I talk to Shaun, if you have a different interpretation then that's fine, too. Honestly, all of it at the end of the day is just fan theory, not talking about Shaun's intention but Shaun not being your son when they probably try to foil the story with FO3 between a son trying to find the father.

But....why?

All that just to hand them the reigns of power?

Does not Father come across as very arrogant to you? If you believe your way of doing things is right, that the organization you lead is the best, why do you find it so hard to fathom that someone of this mindest wouldn't want some form of final lasting legacy? With that legacy being of creating a machine so good that he could convince a parent to love it.

Also, really now, half of things the other scientists do in the Institute seem to be more based off of "for science!" and "because it MIGHT be useful... at some point" And these are the people he grew up around and supports.

What makes you think you have the power to truly change the direction of the Institute in the long run? Isn't that just your personal headcannon? Even Mama Murphy's vision of how things turn out if you side with the Institute can be interpreted as very dubious in outcome.

Personally, I'm fine with The Institute as is. I don't really care about reforming them. The option is there for people who want to, but I'd rather just live it up in underground Elysium. My current Director doesn't give a fig about the surface.

Still though, I don't really see why that matters. I get that this is your personal theory, but I still don't understand why The Institute would bother going through all that trouble of creating a Synth Child and an older Synth, pretending Father is your son, and then creating this elaborate hoax of Father/Son relationship only to hand the reigns over to you.

A leader needs to be confidence, on borderline arrogance. he has a holier than thou attitude while looking down on the surface but he has never looking down on his parent. He has never hidden anything from you as opposed to secret projects from other heads and secret operation like with Virgil where it drives Dr. Li to defect if she found out. Father is arrogant, but he's also smart and know what to say and what not to say, but when he's with you, he has never hidden anything from you. He wants you to be at the meeting where he tells you ALL the Institute plans and secrets despite everyone were looking at you for being in the meeting, he explained to you everything from why they retake the synths to why they want to wipe out the RR and letting you conduct the meeting yourself, making you the director and gaining you all access to everything. It seems like he's a bit too naive and too trusting when it comes to you than anything else because you are related to him by blood, if he wanted to download it to a synth to create a lasting legacy, he wouldn't need you to do that, and as I said, if he just wants to survive forever in the new synth body, I would welcome it because all my characters love Shaun and would want the real Shaun instead of a substitute synth, so what you describe would actually infinitely better than the one they have where it's just a cheap imitation of Shaun.

Also, if I do come across as especially pushy and blunt about my own interpretation about things, I do apologize. I am merely trying to express my own point of view about things for debate.

The director has total control of the institute's mandate, just look at child synths. No one but shawn saw their purpose yet thats been their focus for years. You really trust mama murphy's version of events? She's a burnt out junkie ex-raider.

And that's fine, if I happened to be roleplaying a similar such character living it up in a place with clean, working toilets would have been enough to swear allegiance to Satan and such. Clearly the Institute must be doing something right if they're the only one smart enough to figure out basic plumbing, etc etc.

But to counter your second part: Why destroy University Point just because they heard from a merchant that a little girl thinks she might find old world tech? Why spend years using captured people to work on FEV with no real results? Why build synthetic gorillas? Why replace existing people when they're capable of creating synths with unique faces? If this is truly an organization that wants to be completely sufficient from the surface, why not develop ways of creating a lasting power source on their own? They've got plants growing underground, obviously they've figured out how to make UVB and UVA light sources. They could have had their own underground solar panel system. Oil digging. Underground river hydro generators. Etc etc. On and on.

He orders you around to do tasks that Kellogg would have done if he had been still around. Especially at first. And if you were really told about all of the Institute's plans, then why do you find so many deleted entries in various consoles by him? Why is there so little information available of what they've been doing? All the vague responses?

If you believe he is smart and the type that knows exactly what to say in order to get what he wants, why do you think your character is exempt? Especially with what he tried to do within the first few minutes of meeting you.

It's more like for gaming purposes anyway, it's a shooter game first and foremost, just like Garvey orders you around all the time. And he deleted it to prevent other heads from knowing stuffs he does like with Dr. Li.

Regardless of how smart, telling you how horrible he is to you and treating you like an experiment is not exactly how I would call winning someone over.

They actually knew the girl had the reactor efficiency data which they needed for Phase 3 (and it was likely Kellogg that assaulted the town, whether or not he did so with The Direcorate's consent is a matter for debate), FEV started as a way into Organic Synthetics, Synthetic Gorillas are an experiment in animal synthetics: which have a range of uses, and as for power sources they did: cold fusion which is extremely powerful and efficient. Much more so than solar power.

If Father/Shaun is an experiment, its not a very good one. But, really, why stop there? If this whole thing is an Institute experiment, maybe Maxson is a Synth and the entire Brotherhood are Institute puppets. Maybe the *real* Institute is actually off-planet somewhere pulling the strings. Maybe the entire conflict in the Commonwealth is an elaborate experiment orchestrated by them and none of the factions are *real*. How can you trust anyone?

How do you know that when you were put to sleep in *apparent* Cryo-pods, you didn't wake up in an Institute simulation?

Why destroy University Point indeed....all of the caravans are run by SRB informants, they could have had that data for a few hundred bottle caps. All they had to do was tell the informant to broker a deal. Instead, Shaun...this happened two years before game start, remember?...sent Kellogg to exterminate them. AFAIK they never even found the lab so it was all for nothing...pure stupidity.

The scientists seem to lack focus as well......why synth gorillas when they could make something useful, such as synth horses? Any Wastelander with half a brain would pay through the nose with caps or scrap for one.

Yeah, and thus what led me having to roleplay as a character who couldn't find Father trustworthy. If I decide to do another play through think I'd be better off playing a less "where is mah son?!?" morally ambiguous character.

Where did it say that she had reactor efficiency data? Must have missed that entry. Most of what I found was about a girl who went saluaging thinking she got a lead of info about energy, but didn't actually have it or know what it was, all she did was ask a merchant how much such info was worth, and before she could actually go get it the Institute slaughtered the town, members of which were panicking and accusing her as a synth and such.

And you find out the info she had uncovered was about energy weapons.

You find out what FEV led into, not the reason why it was started and continued. Comes across as just cartoon level evil, really.

I've seen posters here postulate that everything their character is experiencing is some sort of dying REM dream and such, which I suppose is just as valid of an interpretation that the Institute had nothing but the greater good in mind along with Father being somebody who wants to be loved by you after all this time because reasons.

Yeah, exactly. These thoughts are akin to mine, though I would have chosen something like cows. Their cafeteria food selection is in some serious need of variety. Also noticed that for some reason their purified water is cheaper than the purified water you can get from your own settlements. Wondered if that meant their water wasn't all that pure after all.

Just a hypothesis, isn't human DNA a lot closely related to gorilla than horses? I guess it's just easier for them to test on gorillas first since they have done a lot of tests on humans and synths.

What you find as untrustworthy, I find it as extremely trustworthy and make me believe him even more because he would reveal something like that to me while he could just bs about how he misses his daddy.

Its one of the girls holotapes:

She found part of the data about reactor efficiency and showed it to the merchant, who said if she could find the rest that he'd agreed to pay her. The Institute found out somehow and sent in Kellogg. And well....Kellogg did what Kellogg does best. Be a dike.

AFAIK the weapons project was a separate deal from the nuclear reactor efficiency data.

It was a personal pet project of Father's. But yes, I agree the FEV program in Fallout 4 was piss-poor explained. And its a rather large plot-hole.

I think Father has some serious issues and The Institute doesn't give a damn about the surface (although some of the membership, like Dr. Li and Dr. Karlin do). Most just think its a lost cause and plenty believe its full of monsters and rampaging savages (which given the amount of raiders in the Commonwealth, isn't too far off).

But Father is still your son, and he's still offering you a chance to rule The Institute like a king. I doubt don't any of that.

The Institute isn't as "good" as they present themselves, no. Doesn't mean Father/Shaun is an elaborate hoax. For the most part, once you arrive they're pretty upfront with you. You even get access to places most other Institute members have never seen (SRB for instance).

Well the Synth gorillas end up being used as weapons against The Brotherhood..so there's also the element of the B.O.W. to them. Cows wouldn't really fit that role.

As for the water....they probably produce it by the ton. Why would they charge more than settlers who have to scraqe for every ounce of purified water they can get?

Any one else get a whole Logans Run Vibe during the Visit.... Sure there was no mad computer running the place. But the certainly had written off top side near the same.

I could not even sleep there fearing a Sandman would be creeping up on me.

I am guessing with University Point, Old Shaun sent Kellogg and a Synth escort to get the data. Old Shaun probably just wanted the information purchased but didn't trust the traveling merchants to safely get it back. So he sent Kellogg to negotiate the purchase. But something went wrong, Kellogg 'lost it' and committed a massacre.

I think this is the event that Old Shaun is thinking about when speaks of Kellogg's cruelty becoming ever more apparent. I also think this is the screw up that makes up Old Shaun's mind about the disposition of Kellogg.

The synthetic gorillas were a proof of concept. One of the Bioscience terminals talks about this, and future plans like synthetic aquatic animals for deep-sea exploration, and I think it's implied they use synthetic crows as surveillance tools on the surface. (Ever since I heard about that, I've been paranoid every time I see a flock of crows.) And if the wiki is to be believed, the Institute does have synth Brahmin spies, and apparently there's a chance you can find a synth component on them.

Also, Father was testing extreme emotional reactions on the synth child. He wasn't trying to test your emotional response - although he was certainly trying to manipulate you.

Crebain from Dunland?

The Institute's a nice juicy mix of Logan's Run, Blade Runner, Cloud Atlas, and just a dash of Elysium.

Which is why I love it.

The partial data she found was indeed about the laser gun.

Here is a screenshot showing how they were improving the energy reactor and deciding it would work for guns.. and you finding that special energy weapon right next to the terminal this info is on. Also notice the mention it wouldn't be useful on the large-scale, like something the Institute wanted. http://i.imgur.com/6CI6rLi.png

Basically, a bunch of people ended up dying because the Institute couldn't have been bothered to actually fully investigate something considered important to them.

There's no proof Father-as-Shaun isn't a hoax either. All you have is the Institute's word and when you first meet them and after everything you heard, why would you trust what they tell you?

Deacon even cautions about comparing deeds with words about all the various groups that want you to join.

If you talk to the guy who created the gorillas, you find out that their aggression was actually not something that was intended. Within his terminal you'll find plans about how he wanted to create some sort of underwater synthetic realm and such. He was basically creating things at a whim--a whim he realized and thus said participation in his synthetic animal project wasn't mandatory.

You get access to terminals with deleted information, notices of your arrival, to hide info, to be on best behavior, and plans for things you could have already figured out for yourself in the Commonwealth. And the FEV lab, while not very well hidden was guarded by a robot that seemed pretty intent on killing anything that entered. It's like getting a tour from a local business; what you see has already been set up to be seen for you, being led along by somebody else's plan, and if you try to see something you shouldn't you tend to have to pay dearly for it.

Like Father suddenly deciding to release you from cryo to see what you did afterwords, setting up a confrontation with Kellogg that he knew you had a low chance of winning, of spying on you, of introducing a synth child that you were supposed to initially believe was your real son. If all that was, was just to test a synth kid, why not inform you before starting such a test? It's like you were barely more than an opportunity to test things out on. If he actually deep down cared and wanted to know about his real parent, then why use you like a lab rat?

Exactly, why would they pay more for my settler water when they have their own right there?

The Institute is a group of selfish, tunnel visioned, cold blooded, antihero scientists who want to destroy the Brotherhood, wreck havoc on the Railroad, and experiment on fellow humans just for fun, then replacing them with synths to cover up their kidnappings. That is what I think about them.

Anyone who wants to destroy the Railroad is an ally of mine.

It would be cool if there's a way to make the Brotherhood and Institute friendly in an ending even if by a loophole. :\