I can't bring myself to trust Father. Also prepare yourself for a wall of text.

In the game I've been roleplaying as an intelligent (INT usually in the 11 to 14 range) and decent Perception person. Along with being a guy whose main concern is rescuing his son and murdering whoever it was that destroyed his family. Turns to the occasional Med-X and alcoholic drink to help deal with finding himself in a shattered world with a broken family, etc etc. Once in awhile tries to lighten things up with a few badly placed corny dad-like jokes.

Fragile (END of 1), not adapted to the wasteland because he didn't grow up in it sneaky sniper type. Never sided with the BoS or Railroad because he doesn't like being told what to do by people who have no real authority. Helps people who need help in staying alive for free, but charges as much as possible from those that want him to go risk his life to get baseball memorabilia and such. Pretty basic stuff. Something I thought would fit in well with the existing game plot.

Things were going well roleplay-wise until I hit a snag: Entering the Institute for the first time. Up until that point my character has seen and heard nothing but horrible things about this organization, then discovering within ten seconds of arriving that Father had been monitoring me for a long time already and oh hey would you like to finally meet your son?

...the ten year old and revealing itself due to a malfunction to be a synth son? And to please ignore that this entire exchange is about treating you like a lab rat. By the way you've been lied to this entire time and sixty years have actually passed and Father is the actual, real son. That I'm just supposed to take the word of, despite the earlier attempt in being tricked emotionally. And that this Father flat out says that your murdered wife was just collateral damage because a report says so. That despite knowing all the terrible things Kellogg has done still continued to use him anyway. That it is OK the Institute had done the occasional horrible thing because everybody else does and the group you are leading, the Minutemen, are also all incompetent horrible people. Let me give you a tour of the Institute to show how right everything here is, I will explain everything and convince you of my rightness but then proceed to never do so.

NONE OF THIS COMES ACROSS AS TRUSTWORTHY.

Yes, that deserved to be typed out in all caps.

Due to the attempt at emotional manipulation I can't think of any logical reason why my character would just... accept whatever Father says. Especially when many of responses amount to weak attempts to brush your concerns aside by saying everybody else is so much worse, to even using thinly veiled insults. The most I could do was bring my character to play along because after all, the real Shaun might still be trapped somewhere in the Institute.

To me it all feels like a huge set up. Especially since the "tour" (go talk to X people) amounts to finding out nothing that you couldn't have already suspected about them. Everything is nice and new. If you explore several rooms you'll even discover that there are wall partitions leaning against things like it is all been or not completely set up yet.

Everybody has been informed beforehand of your arrival. Terminals that warns to hide any sensitive material, to be on best behavior about you, that it is all so very exciting, along with entries that were flat out deleted by the Director. Half-expected to be able to remove some of the walls to find hidden rooms of more morally questionable material, perhaps even a section housing the real Shaun. I wasn't ever able to find out what Shaun actually had to go through after being kidnapped. There isn't really an option to ask Father about this. As a father in RL myself, wanting to know absolutely everything about my child's health and well-being (and then making them pay for having hurt him), especially when he had been taken by highly questionable sorts, would be of paramount importance.

You don't even get to find any sort of archives on this organization that has existed for hundreds of years. Nothing about Shaun's earlier life here. Only conveniently placed holotapes of already mentioned material and a FEV lab that nobody could have bothered to completely hide away because if Father had been keeping an eye on you, than they would have known you've been in contact with Virgil and might have heard what had happened there from him. There's even an entry in the FEV lab deleted by the Director so that you know that somebody had gotten the idea to review those records in case they were seen... but if they cared that much, then why not simply hide the rest? The only reason I can come up with is that there is no point hiding what you already knew, which makes me very curious about why that particular data entry was something that didn't want to be known.

It all reminds me of a set up on old DM of mine once did (back when I used to play D&D), in order to hide very valuable treasure. Have the players go through a difficult dungeon/journey to get to a treasure box that'd even in itself is difficult to open. At first glance there'd even be a decent treasure to see as soon as you opened the box... but if you took a closer look, then you'd notice that the chest actually has a false bottom to hide something even more valuable. The treasure you first see is mostly just to serve as a distraction.

In other words, the Institute is all very bright and shiny and clean and just look at all the scientists trying so hard to help their idea of humanity, but reveals hardly anything you couldn't have already figured out. With lots that go unanswered.

And so my character is stuck. He finds the Institute morally reprehensible, finds Father untrustworthy and so certainly isn't going to agree to do everything he is told like a second Kellogg, but can't bring himself to go through with actually destroying the Institute because of the chance that behind one of those new-looking walls is hiding the entrance to where his real son is actually being kept. My character could just pretend to agree and smile and nod to everything Father says in the hopes of finding out more about the Institute and his son, but that just leads to suddenly being decided as the new Director, while Father also says that the departments are mostly self-run and implying to be little better than a figurehead/tie-breaker... and still never actually find out much that is going on.

Which certainly isn't helping against the feeling of being blindly herded into some sort of trap or mouse maze. Or both.

And if old man Shaun is the real son then he is either the worst character written in the game or one of the best that just hasn't had everything revealed yet.

At this point I'm more willing to believe that the main character is actually a synth modeled after Father's real father so as to further study extreme emotional behavior. Or that Father is just a synth somewhat similar to PAM, central to the organization only because of being able to provide unemotional conclusions and observations. That the real Shaun has actually been dead and dissected long ago, because if those console entries are to be believed, once the Institute is done with something they have a very salt the earth mentality when it comes to covering up what they've done.

tl;dr give me DLC that fleshes out the Institute more so I can finish this play-through.

Also to make all this slightly less about me just spewing words everywhere: Is there anything that convinced you that Father was a character that you could trust? Did you run into the same role-playing problems that I did?

The main attraction of being part of the Institute is that your character is in charge at the end. Most of the morally reprehensible actions that the Institute has caused are a thing of the past. No FEV experiments since Virgil fled the Institute and no known new Synth replacements that happen while the Sole Survivor is around. Plus most of the corrupt Institute members can be removed by the end of the game leaving a bunch of scientists that rather do research than cause misery to the Commonwealth. Kellogg is dead, Virgil is exiled, Father dies at the end, and Justin Ayo can be framed for being a Synth Sympathizer. Then you have Madison Li and a Commonwealth recruit to help set policy to be more Commonwealth friendly.

Also, everyone of the leaders except Preston is a murderous sociopath. They are not interested in the diplomatic approach, but ruling the Commonwealth. The only good ending is the Minutemen ending where the Railroad and Brotherhood are still around. The worst ending is the Railroad ending since they don't care about bringing order to the Commonwealth just brainwashing most Synths into thinking they are human.

Haven't heard the Father is a Synth theory, but I have heard the Father is an impostor and young Shaun is the real Shaun theory and the Shaun is dead theory. The Father is an impostor theory goes that Father put implants in Shaun's head to put him to sleep and make the Sole Survivor think that Shaun is just a Synth. the Shaun is dead theory goes that Father is an impostor, young Shaun is a Synth, and Shaun was harvested for his DNA to make the Synths. Personally, I feel that Father is whoever you want him to be. If you want to believe that he is the Sole Survivor's son or that he is merely an impostor, then go for it.

Mm, well, if you can't believe that Father is your son and you're afraid of destroying the Institute because your real son might still be in there, I guess you would be stuck. But if you do go through with the main quest and storm the Institute, you will be able to walk away with the synth child (and even believe that it's your real son, which one of my characters did).

And I'm not really hot on the idea of having DLC/patches "fix" the story. That mindset, in either the writers or the audience, puts game storytelling underneath film or literature. They did do Broken Steel, though, so maybe they're not above changing their story just to please the audience.

The institute is only morally reprehensible though the eyes of an out of time 230 year old pre-war soldier/lawyer.

You see a Human body that walks and talks like a Human and assume it is a Human.

Think of a person from 1776 Boston frozen until 2015. How would he view women? Would he not think slavery was perfectly OK? Knowing only a King as leader how would he decipher Democrats and Republicans fighting every four years for control?

In one of the areas of the Institute you see the synth manufacturing process.

You talk to the people of the commonwealth and you hear of synths replacing their loved ones.

You visit Covenant and you find anti-synth zealots while your associates in the Railroad are pro synth fanatics.

You find that memories can be transferred from robots to synths.

It is obvious that there is a wide spectrum of opinion about synths which makes the Institute's attitude as valid as any other.

The Institute has been in hiding for 200 years and they have built a stable functioning society outside the reach of the dangers of the commonwealth. In this respect they are not much different from the Vault 81 dwellers except for the fact that the Institute has actually progressed scientifically while Vault 81 has been stagnant.

It is normal for you to be wary of a hidden agenda and to be completely out of touch with your son. He has 60 years living in a bubble and you are 200 years out of sync. But I think it would be wrong to judge the Institute using 200 year old standards from a long dead society.

Actually, the Institute's behavior is pretty much in line with the behavior of the Pre-War Federal Government and the Corporations like Vault-Tec?.....a diligent Sole Survivor will, by the time they reach the Institute, have unearthed enough to understand that they were lucky compared to most of the people who got "chosen" by the powers that be in the Pre-War world.....they survived being pulled out of their bubble and coming face to face with the truth, that the Federal government and it's corporate friends were predatory and evil, and there is one group in the Commonwealth that took up where they left off...the Institute. So....by destroying the Institute the SS is repudiating the depraved ethics of the rulers of his/her own time, and dispelling the suffocating fear it's adherents have placed over the long suffering residents of the Commonweath for good. The more rationalizations I hear from the Institute apologists, the more it occurs to me that the Brotherhood is right...the institute is irreparably corrupted and needs to be destroyed.

I felt the same way going in. I knew they couldn't be trusted. Finding out Father was your son lol Sounds so wrong... was a let down. I wanted to rescue a young Shaun and bring him back to sanctuary with me. I ended up keeping the synth shaun and doing just that but I pretend he is the real shaun because F the storyline lol. I never thought of them hiding the real shaun though, I knew they were serious about trying to make father the real shaun because I had a feeling they were gonna do something "twisty" for the story for shock value the minute I woke from cryo. I wish OP was right and they were hiding the real shaun... it never came so disappointment ensues. So as far as I was concerned, the institute killed my wife and son so it had to be destroyed. No sympathy.

I knew something was up when the Vault entries had no date stamps. The "child synth" is a plot device to try to keep you in the dark....and moving forward in the MQ in the hopes of rescuing your child...as long as possible.

I like the Institute, they are a close second to my favorite factions, the BOS. Both these factions allow the Player to influence how they present themselves to the Commonwealth. Though the Institute MQ allows the Player a good deal more influence within the Faction.

Of course the Commonwealths reaction to the MQ victory of these factions couldn't be more different.

The BOS are treated as liberators, putting the lie to the ridiculous notion that the BOS are invaders. Heck DC would probably put on a ticker tape parade if they hadn't scrapped it all for 'cloth'.

The Institute is treated with distrust. Nick and Piper chewed my character out, though Piper prints an article that seems to be willing to give the Player Director a chance.

None of us who like the Institute deny that this faction has earned its terrible reputation, but no other faction allows the Player as much freedom to effect change. As for Old Shaun, what do you expect from an effective orphan subjected to 60 years of Institute worldview. You may have found your son when you meet him, but he still needs saving and the closest you'll get to saving your 'real' son is 'Nuclear Family'.

I feel like people disown Shaun never read between the lines, he's like a princess in a castle that you need saving. He was emotionally stunned, if you talked to him in the beginning and during the CIT, he tells you several times that he was raised without love, no one cares for him. He grows up within the cold confinement of the Institute. He never knows what the surface is. After retrieving the synth, you can ask him why he cares if a synth wrecks havoc on the Commonwealth, he will tell you that he doesn't want the surface to get the wrong impression about the Institute. While he doesn't care about experimenting on humans, something he was raised to believe, he may not intend for the surface to slaughter everyone on the surface. Whatever your announcement during the your new position as the new director, he doesn't object. I feel like he hides a lot of his emotions behind his words and you have to read between the lines. While he said he released you as an experiment, he said at the end, he wants to know that after all this time, his father would try to come after him and find him. I feel like he was looking for someone to save him. He was looking for affection, and he has no one to give him. After accepting his death, he was just trying to know what affection feels like in the end. This is why he made a synth Shaun and wants to experience life through him. He was begging you to treat the kid as if he was your son. This is why he made so many strange decision like giving you the only surfacer free access without supervision, making you a director despite everyone else's wishes, side with you despite everyone complain about you working with the Railroad. He was covering for you every single step of the way. I doubt he would do that for any human. Everyone even tells you that it's nepotism like Dr. Li.

This point of view had occurred to me while I was playing. That it is possible old man Shaun is just hiding his emotions/too stunted by what he was surrounded by to behave like a stereotypical captured son who finally gets to meet his biological parent. Would certainly explain how he went from lab rat to head honcho, as well as serve as a coping mechanism of what happened to him. Like a form of stockholm syndrome that he is semi-aware of possessing.

I ended up disregarding this point of view though due to how if old man Shaun really was secretly wanting to be loved, then why did it take so long before he freed his parent from cryo? What happened to those that were his surrogate parents, if there were any, in the Institute? Never found an explanation from this.

Otherwise his actions could just as easily be interpreted as an egocentric person wanting to do one last experiment.

He explains that he didn't find out until later in his life. One assumes that he acted much like many adopted individuals do after they find out their parents aren't their biological parents. Some choose to find their biological parents, others choose not to for various reasons.

Shaun says that old age brought new questions for him: namely "What if?" Which is why he unfreezes you at that point and goes through all the trouble of developing Synth-Shaun. Its a desperate bid to relive the childhood he was never able to have.

As for his 'surrogate' parents. Presumably they're dead by this point. Shaun's near 60.

He was facing his own mortality, he was dying. It's like if you have all the time in the world to do what you want vs if you're gonna die the next day, your way of thinking changes, you will reflect on a lot of things. It's a very surreal feeling knowing you're gonna die. I think in his own mind, he doesn't want to die loveless. In the end, he was just want to see if you would abandon him if he tells you all those terrible things, you think that if he's being manipulative, would he bother bring it up to you? This is why after releasing you, he was so desperate for your affection, it's like he was buying you love, making you the director, keep making excuses for you to other Institute people about why you are made director, about your connection with the RR, about your lack of scientific knowledge. I don't think he has a surrogate parent, because he was taken to be used as an experiment. I'm certain they give him a room with synths bring him food, but there is no need for the Institute to give him a parent or anything like that since he did say he has no love growing up.

It is vague on how much "later." Later could mean by a single day, a year, or forty years.

He also says that he just wanted to see what would happen and didn't think you'd survive for very long. That he is simply testing extreme emotion... and what better way to test that then against someone who wakes up to a destroyed world and family.

Which would make any surrogate parents around 80-90 years old. Not an unrealistic age to still be alive at, especially in an isolated place such as the Institute. Though yes, I do agree it is more likely that they are dead, but that is just another assumption. All you have to go on by what he had to go through growing up--if you believe Father is the real Shaun--is by how he turns out.

There is too much that goes unexplained.

I doubt he knew as a child or young advlt. And even if he did, there wasn't much he could do until he became Director anyway.

Not necessarily. He was adopted remember? His adopted "parents" could have been older than their 20s or 30s. Maybe he was taken in by the middle-aged previous Director or something. That would certainly fit.

But yes I agree there's much that's still left unsaid and unknown. Bethesda didn't give us many dialogue options to delve into his thoughts more. Which is a shame. Either way, Shaun's still a pretty messed up boy. But, he's still your characters son. And he ends up handing you the keys to his kingdom, which if that is a con: it must be a pretty odd one.

Actually, it's a pretty basic con. Think of the stereotypical used car salesman. Extol the virtues of what is being sold and conveniently don't mention that the engine becomes easily flooded, there is no air conditioning, and of course they'll fix the broken side mirror--after you accept the offer. And if you do notice and try to point out the flaws you get a line about well, it is a used car, did you really believe that other used cars would be better, etc etc.

Though in this case you really don't have much of a choice but to accept, since you can tell Father that you really don't want the "car" but he announces your ownership of it anyways. So, maybe a pushy telemarketer that talks lots but reveals little about what you are getting would have been a better comparison.

Keep in mind you only have Father's word and the Institute's that he is your son. An organization known to have kidnapped and replaced people with synths that look like those that were taken. And that they've already tried to convince you a synth was your real son once already.

Any used car salesman that lands me a kingship is a-okay in my book.

I mean, he *is* actually your son of course. Since his appearance changes based on the characters pre-sets.

Roleplay wise I guess if you can't find a reason to believe him. Maybe roleplay that you took a sample of his DNA to Diamond City and had it tested?

More like game limitation, like you don't want to become the General, you're still the General, you don't want to be promote to Sentinel or Paladin, you would still get promoted.

He has no reason to lie to you, especially on his dead bed, and his appearance is taken from you, his facial feature changes depending on you, I doubt Beth would do that if he wasn't. It's more like a call back to Fallout 3 where the role was reversed.

Nope. I found him as an abomination. He had an underlying hostility. He felt us as an experiment. Knew we were in there (cryo) and did not care one whit.

He was an abomination that had to be destroyed..

-edit-

clarity

A single strand of hair would work for this. (I had mine and my parents done.. One strand of hair was all they needed)

Why do you think he feel the need to tell you all these terrible things? Something like that would probably turn someone against you right away. Personally, it's more like he wants to see if you would reject him, he wants to be loved and just to see if you would still love him even after all he said. In the end, what he told you last was that he wanted to see if after all that, his father would try to find him, it's pretty changed how I view him all around.

So does the appearance of the synth boy change to match yours.

You can tell Preston you don't want to lead the Minutemen and never have to do any of that faction's missions, I believe.

I can just as easily say that he has every reason to lie to you if he felt that certain horrible secrets had to die with him in order to get you to do what he wanted.

Yes, but he's a Synth.

I mean Dr. Li worked on SynthShaun personally. I highly doubt she'd [censored] you just for the sake of doing it. She can be a bit of a [censored] sometimes but she's a pretty honest woman all around.

But you can't continue the quest, the BoS promotion is basically also forced upon you. It's like you want to reject being the director, but they could do the same like the Minutemen where you can't advance the quest unless you take the promotion, but what's the point? They can't write that many different questline like that.

What does he want you to do in his death bed? Take care of a synth? Something that he could easily do by giving him off to a scientist while they're escaping.

No I don't feel like that. I was a lab rat to be tested and watched.