See, this is why I don't take stances on these type of topics. Someone speculating that inconsistencies can be explained makes a topic and diregards anything that proves him wrong. The vets come in and disregard anything that may be plausible.(to a degree. They consider it but don't accept most of it.)

BUT if I had to choose a side I go with the vets. Canon over inconsistent imagination anyday for me. But as I said I'm not taking a stance. Filling in the gaps with my own ideas suits me just fine.

Also, kickstand, I did offer a theory, albeit rather far fetched, about the inconsistencies. Yeah I said I'd understand if people disregarded what i said. But that was concerning people commenting on my theory. Not ignoring me all together. So next time I'd appreciate it if you'd at least acknowledge me instead of saying that malcador was the only one to give any ideas concerning the inconsistencies. Thanks.

At their height, By Gamers, For Gamers, was more than just a marketing line.... Sigh.

I think this is something that Beth could pick up easy... I mean we had those old Meet the Dev threads that were non-FO stuff only, and the occasional fan interview, but they seemed to have died out.

Thats what I'm getting at, the only way his arguement seems to work, is if you take a narrow, extreme view or take the context of a dev remark a certain way. Ignoring the "spirit" and reading it literal if you take my meaning.

I'd agree with this. This whole "debate," as I see it, arguably wouldn't be taking place if Bethesda had provided enough background material to support the FEV's appearance in Fallout 3. Not to mention the Supermutants in the first place. Without some form of in-game clues to justify it's inclusion, any explanations one can come up with here are just rationalizations. Considering that a pretty big part of Fallout 1 was uncovering the origins of the Supermutants, the source and background of the FEV, and the plan behind the Supermutant Threat - this particular element in Fallout 3 quite prominent for it's exclusion of that.

And there's really no getting away from the fact that there's no supporting material to link the two. Regardless of whether or not they're saving a big reveal for Fallout 4 or some other spin-off to explain what's really going on in DC, and why we have FEV, Supermutants, and Jet on the East Coast, or it's just an oversight on their part, or if they just didn't care enough about fitting this game into existing lore, is sort of besides the point, as I see it. The facts are that in Fallout 3 FEV has inexplicably moved to another coast without any evidence to support that. Whether or not one is upset by that exclusion, or if they can overlook this problem, is another matter. But I don't think anyone is going to reach any sort of agreement within the confines of this forum.

Personally, I think viewing this as an either/or situation is oversimplifying the problem. In my own view, the issue of FEV and it's place in Vault 87 exists in a sort of probability bubble - it's neither within or in contradiction to "canon" until some sort of justification can be provided by the game to support it's inclusion. Until that happens, then I'm not terribly concerned with the "official" status of the lore.

could it have been that the Enclave moved the FEV to Vault 87 seeing as they could not control Mariposa and West Tek becasue that would reveal their involvement. Really, the Enclave were behind the Vault programs and likely the developement of the FEV, its only logical they would want a place where they could carry out their own research in complete secrecy. And as the Enclave Command And Control pre-war was likely based in Washington D.C. because its the National Capitol it would only be minutes away. They then fled to their bunkers when the Bombs fell or moved to the Oil Rig before tensions got too hot. It actually kinda would of made more sense if Balck Isles had stated the Enclave to have bunkered down in Fallout shelters and bunkers in D.C. as I can't think of any reason that the Enclave would base their operations out of California, oh well, too many loopholes in all the Canon for most argumetns to have any worthwhile conclusion.

The Enclave weren't such a prominence in pre-war times. They were looking for their chance to shine, of course, but post-war Enclave is an organisation born of unchallenged power. The Enclave didn't develop FEV. It was a government/military development, and was an unintentional breakthrough (as most of these things are), a result of Pan-Immunity Virion research. I also doubt a Capitol would be the best place to setup command in the midst of threats of M.A.D nuclear armageddon. A little foresight would lead them away from any landmass, to where the last precious traces of non-renewable resources are. This would also prevent any intrusions, accidental or intentional, in a post-nuclear wasteland. Along with all the unknown variables that would come with such a scenario. The Enclave never had to deal with mutant armies, as one example.

Well, the "spirit" of something, especially fiction, is hardly a reliable metric or baseline, considering that reasonable people may disagree on how to define "spirit".


I've been thinking about this for a couple days and I'm going to post my final consideration here:

-I would prefer that aliens (and the special encounters which were counter to the SPIRIT of FALLOUT) not be included in any of the games. It's too late to fix that now.

-I understand the argument that aliens are a large part of 50's pulp culture.

-I would prefer that an entire DLC opportunity not be spent on aliens. I wuld much prfer an oepn, explorer DLC.

This argument is similar to the one being made by many old BIS fans. The difference is that I disliked ALL of the out of character content in ALL the Fallout games, including this one. BIS is as much to blame for this as BETH, and until the BIS fanse aknowledge that much, they will continue to have minimal credibility in my book.

EDIT:

I posted this in the wrong forum. Mods, please move or delete.

Enclave wasn't behind the development of FEV, if they were I'd think they'd have kept the records well - given what the promise of the project is (super soldiers) and 87 talked with Mariposa so there can't be an issue of 87 being a renegade or split away from them. The Enclave did have their own Vaults or shelters, separate from the other ones so that's how they'd survive the war, and given that they're this shadow conspiracy organization pre-War, not that beyond the pale to have them not be hanging around in Washington DC - the oil rig is pretty remote and far from any targets (and being a target itself).



Oh boy drama again, but what does that have to do with the topic ?

Wow I am so sick of the complaining about this crap, good lord people!

And yet you've bothered to come and complain about this. Funny.

It infects every discussion like a plague, so yeah. You're damn right.

well the devs are pretty choosy about which questions to answer in those threads.


ya know, i did it this way, i imagined that the supermutants around DC are the remains of the Masters army migrated east and that they where the ones that brought with them the FEV to DC from the Masters vats back in California.

works like a charm (for me) and makes better sense then Beths lore. i just ignore the vault 87...."situation".

betsoft not listening to fans, and working with them on what they want s a bad idea. i agree on that. but this thread isnt about bethsofrs busniness model vs black isles work ethinc. the point of this trhead is that before betshofr even got the rights tot his game, there were instances in the storyline that give room for interpritation to the fate of FEV.l


wikipedias are not to be taken as factual. encyclopedias are. wikipedias are peopes recollections of facts. forums can be speculative or factual, depending on the posters... regardless of what you say about facts not being able to used in discussion, people have been doing it for some time.. its called brainstorming. look it up on a wikipedia or something.

and youre right. i cant enforce what i wanted this thread to be... dont post actual facts if you dont want... post the phrase "golden unicorn" in instead, but you must know that i will still tell you that it proves nothing in regards to the subject matter of this thread.



and im sorry that you still dont get it. the whole why "my facts dont have to equal your facts" thing.
i am only claiming the possibility that it could happen. claiming a shadow of a doubt that the lineage has holes in it.. the very lore has loopholes that allow the possibility. this means there is a lot of grey area, because we arent working with defined conditions. possible isnt is. i have never said "this is the way it happened".. only that "this could have happened". and with the timeline and things that occoursed in it. it is indeed possible that it could have. even it if hurts your preconceptions, or isnt a cool thing to do to the fans.


you on the other hand are claiming that it cant happen. which is an absolute... for something to be absolute it has to be black and white. an absolute is watertight, there is absolutely no room in absolute for error or possibilites that could prove to the contrary. this is why poeople that say it goes against the F-universe must prove their side with facts for it to have any validity..

so if an absolute has no room for possibility and i have given you a possiblity, logic says that the absolute of "it couldn't happen" is false.

you dont have to like it. you can be frustrated as all get out with gamesas for oversights, changing the play style, using dog meats name..
you can still tell noobs that youre a grisled, hardend oldskool fallout player, and you dont like this game as much... that its not the same experience. no one can take that from you.
but to say that this piece of the puzzle is out of cannon or lore is un-povable.



as far as not being able to tell me what you think of me or this thread. PM it to me. i promise not to tell on you.


azaban..


sorry i didnt give you a shout out in this thread.
i did say that they were "one of the only" which could have included you, if you wanted it to..

Where did you guys get the fact that Vault 87 didn't close till 2078. I haven't found that anywhere. The bombs fell in 2077 and that is when the Vaults closed. Also there were multiple batches of FEV the one at Mariposa I think was 110-10A I think, but nobody has said that is the batch in Vault 87. With Yellow and not green mutants who 99.99% are all dumb as [censored], you might think that an early batch not used for human testing was used at Vault 87. Just maybe that is what made it to 87. I support the that the West coast FEV didn't make it east but in never said anywhere that an early batch didn't make it. Plus FEV was spread by the nuclear war. It was in the air, the rain, not enough to directly effect anything but maybe a few creatures.

Now this is all speculation but it would fit with all the Fallouts especially since Super mutants change as they get older in F3, but there where plenty of mutants from the Masters army left in F2 and FT. They were all old and not one of them turned into a Behemoth (I know that beth made them to have a kinda boss character but it would help support that this is not the same batch).

i looked through the timeline.

may or may not be credible as it was on the fallout wikia...

just usuing the same sources everyone else is.

i figured as well that it being a differetn strain might have something to dow thi its plausibility..

It does fill the hole left by beth. And explains the the differences in super mutants.

glad to read someone else could see that possibility

Man I don;t think I see eye to eye with you on it. Reading some of your posts seems to make me think you were kinda disagreeing with everyone. I just looked for the middle ground. and the middle ground filled the hole. I would wait to see what some of the other old skool fallout fans really think about this. Where is Ausir when you need him. He would answer any fallout lore questions best.

You misread. Vault 87 wasn't locked in 2078. 2078 is just when they started locking the vault dwellers in FEV chambers and mutating them.

I explain Vault 87 and FEV by: The government isn't stupid enough to put all their eggs in one basket. If they have research of that magnitude, having it all in only one place is silly beyond belief. Destroy that one place and it's all gone.

So, off the radar they moved it to 87 to conduct testing as well. Voila, answer. Who cares if it's written in the bible? Not all art is subject to be written in stone.

Keeping things consistent is necessary to keeping the world believable. If you were to sudden have characters that can explode and not only not hurt themselves exploding, but actually heal themselves, when there was never a...oh wait. :lmao:

But seriously, making little changes all over the place makes it hard to believe that this is the same world as the first two Fallouts. Part of the goal of the bible was to basically say "this is how things are", and serve as a springboard to keep things consistent.

For example, Radiation. Radiation operates different in F3 then in F1 and F2. In F1, you could play the game and never encounter radiation. Of course, you wouldn't be able to get access to the Brotherhood of Steel, but if you didn't want to, you didn't need to go anywhere irradiated. In F3, nearly everything is irradiated.

Another example: The GECK is entirely different. It literally WAS a kit before. Now, it's a WTF BOOM hey here's a garden of eden! There is nothing that indicates what the reason for it being different. Not even sure WHY it was different, as all they really would have needed was information from the GECK for purifying water.

And there are more, but I won't go into detail right now. That's why, when you have a document that says "this is how things went down", you should stick to it. It is possible to write new, compelling stories without having to tear up the old stories.



Um. They did that. Mariposa and West Tek were two different locations, with a huge tract of land between them. And the fact that West Tek was nuked is what lead to all those nifty critters in the wasteland, as their vats were damaged and released FEV into the ecosystem.

Um, that's still too close in a war. Why else did the Enclave and government flee to remote corners of the globe as it was stated in the bible? Even all being in say, Florida is a huge risk.

Citing the bible as keeping things consistent when the bible wasn't even fully consistent doesn't make much sense. I appreciate what Avellone tried to do, but Bethesda was in no way bound to never ever deviate from it.

They wanted to change radiation, so what? It's a different game engine, and they felt it was better this way, and in my opinion, it is.

Bethesda owns the property. If I bought the property from Beth, I could say "F the Bible, I'm changing it" and there's nothing you could do about it. Would it be a bad move? Maybe, you'd lose the hard core (who [censored] and [censored] and [censored]) and perhaps gain a whole new set of fans, like Fallout 3 did.

Asking Bethesda to follow an unofficial and imperfect document letter for letter is silly. I can't believe some people :thumbsdown:

Well, it was written by St. Avellone after all.

Hallelujah! Burn all non-believers! Anything that contradicts our lord does not exist! Let us rejoice in FO1 and FO2 and never deviate!

Why? It's not like a nuke could hit both locations. They were far enough apart that two seperate nukes would be required. Fallout? They'd just need to wait inside long enough for the radiation to die down. And it's not like the fallout was an issue. Even a few days after the bombs fell, the fallout had not reached Mariposa.

So...I don't see what you're trying to suggest here.



And putting it right next to the Capitol wasn't a huge risk? Evidently, it was, since, you know, Vault 87 was hit by a nuke. At least I think it was. It's really hard to tell with this patchy radiation treatment the game got. But in any case, it was just outside of the Capitol. Why would that be safer then the other side of California?



If they wanted the game to be consistent with the previous games, they would have. And it was a hell of a lot more consistent then what Bethesda ended up with, so maybe they should have followed it lol.



The change makes it feel like a different world from the previous games. Seriously, you were at little risk of getting rads in Fallout 1. In 3, you can get it nearly everywhere. Drinking, eating, walking near water...saying it's a different game engine doesn't excuse it. It does, however, highlight that it feels like a different version of the Fallout world. And that's bad.



Or, they could have been smart, and aimed for something that would have jived with older players better. Then they would have older players, along with the new ones. Two is more then one. Think about it, would it have been a huge issue to you, if radiation was hardly in the game, save for a few key locations that was bathed in radiation, making it super dangerous? And would it have been a huge issue to you if the quests were written more like the original quests?

Probably not.

So the net gain would have been better. Would have been win win for Beth. But, they didn't do that, so word of mouth past along those of the fans of the originals, helping the undecided decide that, hey, I don't want to play a poorly written game like that.

So the bottomline is, I believe it was MORE then possible to write a story and setting that would have fit the originals, kept the fans of the original happy, and please newcomers.



Why would it be considered unofficial? It came from Black Isle. Imperfect? There might have been some errors, but it was more coherent then what Bethesda put out. Here's the thing: Bethesda had plently of documentation to go on to write a good story within the confines of the existing layout of the game. There was no reason for all the little changes they made. Not to the radiation, to the GECK, to Super Mutants, to the Brotherhood, to the weapons, etc etc etc.

In any event, we're straying. All in all, Mariposa meets your requirement of not putting ones eggs in the same basket.