SInce the F3 vs. NV thread has derailed into a debate over whether it makes sense for FEV experimentation to be transported to Vault 87 or not I think it should have it's own thread to stop derailing.

Let the debating begin!

I am still firmly in the camp of only West Tek had it and it was all stored at Maraposia. FO3 Vault -tec location was a plot hole rectconn make as an excuse to have Super mutants in DC.

Very much agreed.

Perfectly said.

I enjoyed the mutie presence in Fallout 3 very much. I loved hunting them. They were great distractions pre-Waters of Life. Isn't that what counts?

2nd Gen muties>1st gen.


NO MORE GAMES, TIME TO DIE!

This made me laugh Okie it show just how convoluted you'd have to get for what gamesas did to "make sense"

You know, I think you would've enjoyed hunting them as much if they appeared as they are, as stupid bodybuilders, but were explained as a result of a social experiment involving continuous overdose of elephantsteroids, carsinogens and later on radiation. Their presence as they are now, just doesn't make much sense in the series overall.

From previous thread:



At this point, Vault tec was for all intents and purposes, a Department of the government.





Mariposa failed as well. With the soldiers stationed there rebelling. Vault 87 did indeed last longer. FEV in itself was a experiment created by the government that was bound to fail from the start, as with any project that attempts to create "super soldiers". FEV simply can't be contained reliably in any environment successfully. But Vault 87 offered a good chance, and it did indeed succeed at surviving longer than Mariposa.





The fact that it didn't say that though allows for FEV to have existed at Vault 87. The statement is not conclusive. I think there are also equally obivious reasons why he wouldn't have mentioned Vault 87.

I still say it didn't break lore. It may have been a loop-hole on Bethesda's part but Barnett's statement can still be construed as meaning "All FEV research at the West Tek facillity is being moved to Mariposa." Also, who's to say that the FEV wasn't moved from Mariposa to Vault 87 after Barnett made his report?





Thats a hyperbole. Claiming Elder Lyons was the second coming of Jesus is proven to be a false statement by virture of its hyperbolic status.

The existance of FEV in places other than Mariposa is not a hyperbole however, and is quite reasonable. Given that Bethesda now shows that it did, I need to see conclusive proof that it should not be there. Strangely enough, the burden of proof is on you.





I will concede on this point, that is a fair assessment. Its location may be subject to scrutiny, but I am more arguing for Vault 87's existance as an idea, and less that it was located on the East Coast and it makes sense for it to be there.




Then the whole Vault experiment is illogical.

The average Vault tec worker would not know what was going on and what this Vaults particular project would be (they likely didn't even know it would have one). The executives and higher-ups at Vault tec, (such as Dr. Braun) would be the only ones to be privy to the knowledge, and they would be fairly trustworthy given what else they were doing and how close to the government they were.

Even if that is so it clearly didn't have it's resources. Or did I miss the Vault 87 armory chock full of power armor and high-powered energy weapons? If the research was so important why was everything entrusted to Vault Tec, an organization with no absolutely no capabilities in FEV or PPV research and apparently left without any more equipment or resources than a standard vault? If a private company was going to continue with experiments it should've been West-Tek. Inexplicably it wasn't.



I don't see why that makes it bound to fail. A proper underground facility with reliable soldiers and people in charge who knew what they were doing would've been able to handle it. For some reason they decided a civilian facility, never intended to serve as a research station and controlled by a private corporation with no experience in the field was the way to go. Makes a lot of sense.



Like the fact it didn't exist until Fallout 3 and was never intended to be anywhere other than Mariposa?



It's not really a loop-hole. It's the equivalent of saying "well you didn't see into the future and explicitly contradict what we're going to say so we'll interpret this in a way that's directly contrary to your meaning."

According to Fallout 1 FEV was developed at West-Tek and researched there until all research was militarized and moved to Mariposa. That was the lore until Fallout 3 came along.



Hyperbole is often useful for making points. The statement may be ridiculous but by the logic you use this wouldn't be breaking lore since nothing in the game specifically disproves the theory. No one ever said "Elder Lyons is definitely a mortal man and not the second coming of Jesus."

But for a more reasonable approach let's say Elder Lyons is the Lone Wanderer's real father. After all all your dad ever said was "I'm your daddy." It doesn't mean he's your biological father. Nothing in the game specifically disproves this. You see how this approach is crazy? Bethesda changed the lore to get super mutants on the East coast. It's as simple as that.



No the burden of proof is not on me. I happily concede that FEV is in Vault 87 because Bethesda said so. All I'm trying to get you to see is that Bethesda clearly changed the lore.

Vault 87 was completed in 2081 according to the Pentagon terminal, that's four years before FEV was even created; so unless Vault 87 was Control Vault then the Enclave must have had a hand in changing the purpose of the Vault which would then make it illogical that they would need to go to Mariposa in 2236 for FEV data when they apparently built an entire Vault for collecting FEV research.

The virus taken from West-Tek upon the completion of an entirely new specialist research center on January of 2077 but according to the Vault 87 logs, Vault 87 was still in contact with Mariposa whilst conducting the experiments which means that it had to be doing them before the bombs had even dropped.

The whole damn Vault is stupid.

Okie I can see I will not be able to convince you.

Your points are well formed and I can concede to some of them, but I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Bethesda may have simply used Vault 87 to put Supermutants on the East coast. That could be true (and probably is, I doubt they put as much thought into it as I am or you are), but even if it is a breach of lore, I still don't feel it to necessarily be an over-the-top ridiculous one.



I'm not entirely convinced, but I see your reasoning and understand it.



Yes. That's a vaild point. The Enclave wouldn't have needed to go through the trouble of Mariposa if they had a vault designed to give them data on FEV.

Excellent point as well.

So Vault 87 was complete four years afte the Great War and FEV was created eight years after the Great War?

I kind of remember the Great War being a big world ending event in 2077.

Hur hur, 2071 then.

That makes sense and I remember reading that when I read the entire Fallout timeline on the wiki.

It was probably a control vault they repurposed, using the logic that Vault 101 was another control vault in the area.

Vault 101 wasn't a Control Vault, it was about testing the authority of the Overseer.

yeah thats what I thought.

It certainly makes a lot of sense for it to be there. When the Enclave fled east, they would've taken their experiments with them-whether that be directly transporting it, or merely taking the notes behind the project with the means to redevelop them..
It would've made less sense if they had just ignored it and left it alone...Of course then you would of had people complaining that they just ignored the history of the series.
I've learned to just laugh at the sentiments of those people and ignore them..

I think that bring FEV into a vault experiment was a bad idea. OTOH once the decision was made to make FO3 on the east coast (which to me is a logical one for an eastern US developer to make), I think it was a matter of finding the "least worst" supermutant option.

Other than a new FEV experimental facility, the only other option if you're going to have a lot of supermutants is the Masters' Army migration, which then would lead us to exactly the same argument we currently have about the Enclave - Just how many of them can there logically be?

Rather than making it a vault experiment though, I think Bethesda would have been better served by creating a new "master". Perhaps instead a Brotherhood scribe in the citadel comes across reports on FEV, perhaps a sample or two, enough information to recreate it (It imakes sense for there to be some information on FEV in the citadel, it was a military project and there *must* have been some pentagon/DoD oversight). Perhaps Lyons learns of this and Exiles the scribe, perhaps the Scribe leaves on his own to focus on the experiments. Eventually the FEV changes him, maybe loses a few brain cells himself and then becomes the "Zombie" horde - the scribe his army snatch prime humans and dip them, but can't remember "why", its just what they do.

But of course, this then opens another "Fo3 is just a copy of Fo1/2" argument.

Edit: Just thinking, a scribe exiled for FEV research... It would almost be the Brotherhood closing the circle.

SO your saying the Enclave started Vault 87 After Fallout 2? XD

Wow, that was....horrible.

James was AT your birth. There is a holotape where James flirts with Catherine, and sounded pretty hot and by the looks of it, was the cause of your birth. James even says" I brought you into this world, I think you know the rest."

You get I was being deliberately ridiculous right? Elder Lyons is not the LW's father just as FEV was only at Mariposa. When you change those things you're changing lore. You don't need to have something explicitly disproving either theory for them to be ridiculous because for obvious reasons such evidence is never going to exist and it's not necessary to understand what was meant.

The first victims of the modified FEV in vault were transformed the same year the bombs fell in 2077, so this event obviously could not have happened after FO 2.

What would be the point of experimenting with FEV in a vault? The FEV was being developed to create supersoldiers for the war. Experimentation in Vaults would have to happen after bombs fell, meaning that the war would have to be over. Whats the point of creating soldiers for a war that has already happened?

Well, it was not there originally, and it probably should not have been there, but Bethesda did an adequate job of explaining it into the game.

Plus, it makes sense to conduct these studies in more than one place.

I don t see it as a huge deal. No one knows exactly what was going on before the war to say the U.S. government only had it in one place.

The loop hole is big enough to run a train through. No one can say it was only on the West coast before the war, because we were not there. Not to mention it was in DC, and this can not be denied.

Bethesda bought the series, and they put it there and explained it in very well. They explained that better than they did Enclave, bos, urban plasma rifles, bos not in t51b, different Enclave pa mkll.

Out of all the stuff people [censored] about fev in 87 was the one they took the most care in explaining. It should be a non-issue.

There was a perfectly useful loop hole, and they took it. That is what writers do.....