A Few Questions on The Infernal City

Post » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:22 am

When it comes to TES, I've always been more of a prosaic fan. I'll freely admit that I'm in it for the world I see in the games, and more obscure lore discussions on the universe's mystical elements aren't really my cup of tea. That being said, I have a few logistical questions with the new canon of the Infernal City. Forgive me if these have been asked before.

1) How important was Vaardenfel exactly? In Morrowind, I got the distinct impression that it was a backwater island that was very spiritually important, and admittedly had some nifty mines. However, I thought most military and economic power remained on the mainland. Yet mainland Morrowind was crushed. Tidal waves couldn't hit too far inland, lava is irrelevant as seeing that Vaardenfel is an island still it never made landfall, and I don't buy that ash alone ruined it, as it would've also annihilated Solstheim. Houses Hlaalu and Dres (even Indoril) would have most of their power theoretically intact, but still are curbstomped by Argonians (which I still don't buy becoming a race of superwarriors, but that's another issue entirely). It seems to me that's the equivalent of Texas being destroyed and then the USA collapses.

2) Did Dagoth Ur have a plan on how to deal with the Ministry of Truth? I mean, not only did he build his lair on top of a volcano that would've destroyed him eventually, his dream of a unified Morrowind would've been cut painfully short if he did indeed oust the Tribunal. I really want an answer here, because back in '03 Dagoth Ur was one of my favorite villains, but with the Oblivion developments relegating his entire plans as mere tangents to weakening the barriers already tarnishing his threat-level, I'd rather not have him be extremely stupid as well (I refuse to believe he didn't see this coming, and I sort of wished he told the PC in Morrowind).

3) Why oh why didn't the Dunmer dismantle the Ministry of Truth? It can be affected--they dug lots of tunnels into it. So while they bent over backwards making the ingenium, couldn't they have, I dunno, carved it into little pieces and throw those into the water? It just seems so weird that they didn't do anything about it when it was hanging up in the air like a death sentence.
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D IV
 
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Post » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:25 am

1) Vvardenfell was where Red Mountain resided, the second tower. It was also the home of Vivec, and the home of the heads of Redoran. However, Aldu'Rhun was already crushed during the Oblivion Crisis, and raided by nords and orc mercs on their mainland holding so Redoran from that point on was on the verge of collapse. Indoril, actually, was also on the verge of collapse, as they haven't really recovered since Vivec signed the armistice with Tiber Septim. This was due to in large part by their leaders committing suicide when that treaty was signed. Also, Inordil was still practically living in the 2nd era, so they were behind in every aspect. In fact, it was a pass-by topic between NPCs that Telvanni, Helseth, Hlaalu, and Dres were "picking apart the carcass of house Indoril." So, by the time it was almost the Oblivion Crisis, Telvanni, Hlaalu, Dres, and Helseth were the players with power. However, the dunmer were hit pretty hard during the OB Crisis, as evident by how the Telvanni were really the only ones able to close the gates, but still had an extremely difficult time.

Fast forwarding to post-Crisis, most of Morrowind would have been in not such a good position as is. Then the Red Year came. The Ministry of Truth fell, causing Red Mountain to lose its [censored] (and to put it in context, Red Mountain itself is roughly half the size of Olympus Mons in real life). As was extremely heavy (there is still a few feet of ash in what was Vivec, even 40-20ish years after the MoT fell) and is very likely, ash would have descended southwards, along with tsunamis. With Morrowind hit pretty hard, the argonians invaded like madmen, likely kicking Dres to the curb initially (this is due to Dres holding the majority of its land in southern Morrowind, close to the Black Marsh border). From there, the argonians got as far north as what was Vivec city, so it is very likely the argonians completely massacred the dunmer, forcing them to go to Solstheim. Also to remember, the argonians kicked Mehrunes Dagon's forces during the Crisis, making them more powerful if you think about it.

2) Newp. Dagoth Ur was fixated solely on creating the second Numidium. In all honesty, if everyone's love of Vivec had died when Dagoth Ur released the second Numidium, then it would have fallen, though if Dagoth had been successful, he could probably have warped it out of existence...that is if he knew about it.

3) It's likely those pieces would still have fallen. Plus, it was where the ordinators took people, and it is seen as sacred in a way.
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Post » Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:52 am


1) How important was Vaardenfel exactly? I


If you see a map of Morrowind, Vvardenfell is a large majority of the country
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Roisan Sweeney
 
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Post » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:11 am

2) Did Dagoth Ur have a plan on how to deal with the Ministry of Truth? I mean, not only did he build his lair on top of a volcano that would've destroyed him eventually, his dream of a unified Morrowind would've been cut painfully short if he did indeed oust the Tribunal. I really want an answer here, because back in '03 Dagoth Ur was one of my favorite villains, but with the Oblivion developments relegating his entire plans as mere tangents to weakening the barriers already tarnishing his threat-level, I'd rather not have him be extremely stupid as well (I refuse to believe he didn't see this coming, and I sort of wished he told the PC in Morrowind).
Yeah, if he had Akulakhan, the MoT wouldn't have mattered. There would be a hundred different ways he could've taken care of it, and some of them even without Akulakhan (he did rival one of the individual Triunes at the height of their power, at least from how I reckon it and Vivec did say that he could remove it if he wanted to).
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Nathan Barker
 
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Post » Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:10 am

1) Vvardenfell was where Red Mountain resided, the second tower. It was also the home of Vivec, and the home of the heads of Redoran. However, Aldu'Rhun was already crushed during the Oblivion Crisis, and raided by nords and orc mercs on their mainland holding so Redoran from that point on was on the verge of collapse. Indoril, actually, was also on the verge of collapse, as they haven't really recovered since Vivec signed the armistice with Tiber Septim. This was due to in large part by their leaders committing suicide when that treaty was signed. Also, Inordil was still practically living in the 2nd era, so they were behind in every aspect. In fact, it was a pass-by topic between NPCs that Telvanni, Helseth, Hlaalu, and Dres were "picking apart the carcass of house Indoril." So, by the time it was almost the Oblivion Crisis, Telvanni, Hlaalu, Dres, and Helseth were the players with power. However, the dunmer were hit pretty hard during the OB Crisis, as evident by how the Telvanni were really the only ones able to close the gates, but still had an extremely difficult time.

Fast forwarding to post-Crisis, most of Morrowind would have been in not such a good position as is. Then the Red Year came. The Ministry of Truth fell, causing Red Mountain to lose its [censored] (and to put it in context, Red Mountain itself is roughly half the size of Olympus Mons in real life). As was extremely heavy (there is still a few feet of ash in what was Vivec, even 40-20ish years after the MoT fell) and is very likely, ash would have descended southwards, along with tsunamis. With Morrowind hit pretty hard, the argonians invaded like madmen, likely kicking Dres to the curb initially (this is due to Dres holding the majority of its land in southern Morrowind, close to the Black Marsh border). From there, the argonians got as far north as what was Vivec city, so it is very likely the argonians completely massacred the dunmer, forcing them to go to Solstheim. Also to remember, the argonians kicked Mehrunes Dagon's forces during the Crisis, making them more powerful if you think about it.


I'm aware of how the events themselves played out (and I appreciate the forum for listening--I know how many "How can they do this!!!" topics are floating around, so I'm trying to avoid such a pitfall), it's just how they occurred that strains my credulity.

I'm aware that Indoril was on the decline, as was Redoran, but Houses Dres and Hlaalu were, apparently, still rich and powerful. Rich enough to hire mercenaries at the very least. And with the seat of Hlaalu and Dres power being on the mainland, it's difficult for me to see them just get swamped by the Argonains, who they've been beating for generations. Sure, there is the fact that the Hist suddenly called them back and had them close Oblivion Portals (which in itself is so odd to me--why would the Hist wait for this moment, when the Argonians have been TES whipping boys since the setting's outset?). But the Dunmer know exactly how to fight them, and I just can't see someone like Helseth sitting on his hands instead of using a national crisis to solidify his control.

Maybe I need to know more about the "Red Year", but c'mon, Dunmeri culture was entirely built around having to deal with ash. Remember the ash-sweeping guilds in Vivec? Being miserable under a bunch of ash is their national passtime.

Vaardenfel was large, true, but the vast majority of that size was barren, uninhabited Ashlands, much like how most of Russia is lonely steppe and tundra. Vivec was the only major city on the island, as opposed to Tear, Necrom, Narsis, Almalexia, the Telvanni island holds etc... Morrowind was rich, it had a long-standing military tradition (I also don't buy that a country that turns out Ordinators and Byouant Admigers couldn't close gates, but I'll concede that the fact of the matter is they somehow didn't). A Morrowind without Vaardenfel would be in trouble, yes, but enough that the Argonains literally just kick them to the curb? All of this seems very inorganic to me. I suppose I feel as though the devs made this crisis to speed up the clock, but it seems just that--fabricated. I know what the devs say happen, it's just that it's hard for me to imagine it going like that. Maybe I underestimate Vaardenfel. And I certainly think the goddam Dunmer should've dismantled the Minsitry of Truth when they had the chance.

Still, I like the mental image of Dagoth Ur finally defeating the Tribunal, declaring he'd purge the rest of the country of the n'wah, and immediately taking a mountain to the face.
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Sherry Speakman
 
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Post » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:39 am

Oh boy, where to begin.
I'm aware that Indoril was on the decline, as was Redoran, but Houses Dres and Hlaalu were, apparently, still rich and powerful. Rich enough to hire mercenaries at the very least. And with the seat of Hlaalu and Dres power being on the mainland, it's difficult for me to see them just get swamped by the Argonains, who they've been beating for generations. Sure, there is the fact that the Hist suddenly called them back and had them close Oblivion Portals (which in itself is so odd to me--why would the Hist wait for this moment, when the Argonians have been TES whipping boys since the setting's outset?). But the Dunmer know exactly how to fight them, and I just can't see someone like Helseth sitting on his hands instead of using a national crisis to solidify his control.
Trees are patient. Given enough time, they can rip through the hardest rock. Now give them sentience and while they might fall to the axe, they are willing to make sacrifices until that woodcutter as put himself in the swamp where he trips on a root, falls face first and traps himself between two roots as he drowns. Then give them metaphysical significance and we http://www.imperial-library.info/content/lord-vivecs-sword-meeting-cyrus-restless that they and Vivec were at least aware of what each of them were doing. They saw the Oblivion Crisis coming and they made plans to have it dealt with with as little damage to Black Marsh as possible. Once that was finished, they could go on to the task of stopping the Dunmer from pillaging the Forest once and for all.

As for how they steamrolled over the Dunmer, consider this: Dres had specialized its military to fight against defensively acting guerilla warfare. If they were smart and disciplined enough, they would've best been served by sending 'slaver' parties into the Oblivion gates to close them, acting offensively and aggressively to stop any incursion. Whether they did that or not, we don't know. But after that and a little space to breathe, suddenly a highly organized army marches north against their cities. Having previously been used to fighting offensively, they're ill-equipped to fight an aggressive, organized Argonian force where previously they just fought scattered, disorganized guerrillas. Dres never stood a chance. My only explanation about Hlaalu was that a good deal of Hlaalu's economy was invested in Vvardenfell's Ebony, investments now buried under cooling lava. However, surprise was likely still on the Argonian's side.

(I also don't buy that a country that turns out Ordinators and Byouant Admigers couldn't close gates, but I'll concede that the fact of the matter is they somehow didn't).
MK's little picture on the http://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/obstx_fallofaldruhn.jpg show us what a disciplined army can (or can't) do against a determined force of Immortal soldiers little concerned with their safety, so long as they inflict the most casualities. Never mind wings of Winged Twilights ready to carry off whole squads of soldiers, or fly by as they maul them. Again with the surprise being on the wrong side of the Dunmer. Redoran were warriors and they might've been effective against the distraction gates in the wilderness, but when the brunt of Oblivion came crashing down on Ald-Ruhn (and presumably other cities), there was nothing they could do.

Not to mention that they had civilians to look after.
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