Hello, folks. I'm new to the Beth forums, and after lurking here a few weeks as a nameless Guest, I finally have decided to join up and throw my nerdy hat into the discussion. And yes, I'm starting here, in the Lore forum. Now that the introductions are over, let's get to the nittly gritty.

I've found, despite my searching through The Imperial Library site as well as UESP, I've found very few details on two subjects: The Thalmor and the Great War. I've read Rising Threat, and I've read the admittedly brief report on the War itself. However UESP is dry of any details regarding the Thalmor, and searching for anything on The Great War inevitably leads back to the report or leads to the Fourth Era timeline.

The Thalmor are frustratingly mysterious in motive, numbers, and leadership. And the question I also have to beg is whether or not the Thalmor are an entirely Altmer organization, or whether or not there are Bosmer in its ranks. There was some talk within the game and within some sources in the Library that there had been a "Great Purge" of sorts, clearing out those not of pure blood. It's therefore not out of the question that the Thalmor is entirely Altmer. Probably on purpose, this mirrors the purges in Germany in the 1930s; it's no coincidence that the Thalmor wizard robes have the appearance and function of the uniforms of Nazi Germany's Schutzstaffel (SS). However, in the real-life Nazi expansion, the Nazis relied on an extensive number of collaborators, particularly in the Balkans and in Austria. A number of these even made their way into Himmler's SS corps, and some presided over the extermination camps. Given the similarity of the Thalmor to Nazi Germany, is it out of the question then, that there might be Bosmer or even Khajiit in their ranks?

And exactly what is it that they're after? It's been said that they are after the complete unmaking of the world, but even the Thalmor have to know that it's an unrealistic ambition. The best they can hope for is a world without Men, and that seems to me like an ambition that's out of their reach for the forseeable future. So precisealy what is it they are after?

And the Great War. There is almost nothing known about any of the commanders outside of Titus Mede II. What exactly were the tactics used in the various skirmishes and battles? All the tactical coverage goes to the Battle of Red Ring, but almost nothing on early battles of the war. What kind of commander was General Naarifin? What was Lady Arranelya's fate? What about the battles in Hammerfell?

Details seem scant.

There really isn't much information to go on, yet. There's more information of the Great War than there's been on other wars, but you pretty much covered all we know.

Yes, and that's what irritates me. I take a lot of interest in war history and the factions behind wars. With so much of the events within Skyrim being tied to the Great War and the Thalmor, you would think there would be a lot more regarding the subject.

There is little that can be definitively said about Thalmor army. All of the enforcers in Skyrim are Altmer but considering that their other possibilities would be Khajiit and Bosmer it is not that strange. Bosmer are not well suited for taking a Nord into custody and the Khajiit would have a hard time entering Skyrim cities. It is however very apparent that Bosmer are second class citizens in the alliance and that Khajiit are probably below them. I believe that purges of purity are more about getting rid of potential political opposition. Seeing how the birthrate of Altmer is really low they need Bosmer and Khajiit front liners if they hope to accomplish their goal.

The ultimate goal of the Thalmor is well known, but their plan isn’t. They want to unmake the word and to do it they need to get rid of Talos. Forbidding warship weakens Talos but does not get rid of him, how they are planning on finishing a weakened god off is unknown.

POSSIBLE SPOILERS



Well if you help malborn escape the embassy, he show up in windhelm claiming that there is a kahjit assassin outside the gate trying to kill him (he is right) also i believe when you get esbern another kahjiit assassin will try to kill you on your way out of the city so im guessing that the thalmor use kahjiit more as agents then infantry.

I see them returning the world to a Pre-Mundus state much easier for them then wiping the world of Men, honestly. And no, I don't think the Thalmor know its a unrealistic ambition. Their Altmer, and every true blooded Altmer knows there's NOTHING they can't achieve, especially ones such as the Thalmor.

One thing to note about the Elder Scrolls saga is that we've seen that when it comes down to it, mortals are a match for immortals; mortal heroes can defeat Daedric Princes in straight fights.

The Thalmor have carved out an enormous challenge for themselves, but it may well be achievable. It's also worth noting that the goals of the Thalmor are similar to the goals of Mankar Camoran -- reverting the world to a primordial state -- and Mankar Camoran nearly pulled it off. The Thalmor are relying on the resources of the Aldmeri Dominion, rather than on an alliance with a Daedric Prince, but those resources are considerable.

There has to be a few in the High Command with doubts.

Actually, it would be the leading members of the Thalmor that would be the most excited about the prospect of unraveling the world. Its the majority of the Alinor and lower rungs of the Thalmor power that would have problems with this idea, but its not exactly like they know about it in the first place. Its entirely possible that most Altmer are fulled by anti-mannish sentiment, and the desire to re-assert the pure Mer as the power in Tamriel, and not the barbaric races of Man.

"Each Event is preceded by prophecy. But without the Hero, there is no Event."

Which is to say that the Thalmor will ultimately fail. When some world-ending event is about to happen, a Hero manages to step in and stop it.

However, in their quest to unmake the world, I expect the Thalmor to salt a lot of earth.

Perusing some lore in the Imperial Library, I believe I have stumbled on the origin of the current incarnation of the Thalmor. From the 3rd edition Pocket Guide,


Given the fact that this group targeted the Crystal Tower, and the Crystal Tower's destruction during the Oblivion Crisis, the terrorist group calling themselves "The Beautiful" became involved in one of two ways: They were witness to the Crystal Tower's fall and took advantage, or were themselves directly involved in its destruction. In either case, the Beautiful seized on the opportunity to expand their influence and achieve their ideals by dropping their formerly radical poses. They did this by adopting a name familiar in the lore of the Summerset Isles: The Thalmor, as the true Thalmor largely disintegrated after the old Aldmeri Dominion was defeated by Tiber Septim with Numidium. Claiming victory in driving out Mehrunes Dagon's armies, they quickly gained the support of the people and secured the loyalty of a large portion of the Altmer. They then used political machinations to discredit any dissidents, and eventually achieved their goal of overthrowing the rulers of Summerset. Thus, they achieved some of their radical ends.

The Pocket Guide seems to suggest that the terrorism of "The Beautiful" was rooted in radical progressivism, yet it's not out of the question that their form of progressivism is the destruction of all things the Altmer formerly relied on - The Crystal Tower, the Royal Families, and such - instead replacing it with an Altmeri utopia, free of the lesser Mer races, currently tolerated only for convenience, and free of the Man and Beast races. Again, the Khajiit are tolerated only for convenience.

The Thalmor and the Beautiful seem more like natural enemies to me with a lot of similiarities. The Thalmor don't want to move forward, they want to move backward, their methods might be the same a lot of their side goals might be the same their eventual end-game is completely different.
The philosophies just don't match up. Also consider that they targeted Altmer Kings, which the Thalmor would not do as long as there are foreigners around. They targetted monuments of Altmer glory, which the Thalmor would never do and they left foreigners alone which the Thalmor would never do.

It does bring back the question of what the function of the Crystal Tower was. Did the Beautiful seek to destroy it to stop its functioning as one of the Towers, or simply because it was a symbol of traditional authority?

Again, drop the radical pose for the radical ends. The Altmeri royals were overthrown in Summerset by the Thalmor right when the Empire was at the beginning of the Stormcrown Interregnum.

Also, explain to me exactly where this idea the Thalmor want a radical return to the past is coming from. From what I can gather, the Thalmor want utopia - past, present, or future - and they see it as a world without lesser races. I know there was some source somewhere with regards to the Altmer religion on correcting the "mistake" of the Mortal Plane, but does that necessarily mean a step backward or a step forward?


How about both?

In a time when the Empire was strong and on the rise you wouldn't waste time destroying those that support your world view you would hunt those that don't. Morgiah and her children would have been far greater targets then any other. If you read the entire page you posted in context then it suggests a clear link between moving into the Empire and the beautifuls.

More importantly, the Thalmor want to return a pre-dawn state. That's not moving forward, that's moving back. Back to where they originally came from. I still see no reason why a group that believes in Altmer supremacy would target things that proclaim Altmer glory. It would be far more beneficial to them to target men and signs of their glory.

It's a pivot, followed by several steps forward. They want to make progress toward the utopia that was. The beautiful obviously weren't big fans of that past.

There is a basic distinction between revolutionaries (the Beautiful) and reactionaries (the Thalmor). As has been said, the Thalmor are basically conservatives, whose name and rhetoric refer to the past 'glories' of Alinor. This is in line with their quasi-fascist vibe; no doubt they glorify the Altmeri royalty even while sidelining them politically. The Thalmor are, explicitly, racist, warmongering authoritarians who value their history and, implicitly at least, pre-existing institutions.

The Beautiful want to destroy that past and all the baggage that comes with it (presumably the caste system, etc.). The RL anology would be European anarchists in the 19th and early 20th Centuries, who attacked a few royals and heads of state and sometimes claimed they wanted to 'destroy civilisation', etc. Now, there might be some overlap in tactics, or even personnel (historically, 'futurists' had both fascist and revolutionary sympathies), but the ultimate aims of these organisations are clearly very different.

No doubt RL anologies have limited value, but they are worth bearing in mind.

To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum's iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison.

To achieve this goal, we must:

1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.

2) Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated.

3) With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once travelled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit.

"The Ysmir line is dead and so is His stranglehold on the mythic.

"We're coming for you in every one of your quarters, Sons of Talos. None shall survive."

I suppose I should say that the reason I want to know more is twofold: I've got a story in my head regarding the Thalmor and the Dominion in which they go to war on a different land other than Tamriel (Mostly to secure more resources) and I'd like to know more about their command structure and command style of their generals. You get a good idea of how their spy network operates in Skyrim, but you don't get much about their military other than in game reports.

The most I can recall at the moment is that they make use of Goblin armies, and are a force to be reckoned with at sea. I also think they are also known for their girlish offenses, but that doesn't seem to relate to our present day Aldmeri soldiers.

EDIT: This thread here seems to cover what possible present-day Thalmor may employ. http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1333017-the-great-war/page__st__30

It seems from the report on the War that there was an imperial army in Hammerfell that found itself outnumbered and dogged by an Aldmeri army. While it could be that the imperial army was not large to begin with, this would still make sense when you correlate this with Rising Threat: Instead of being outnumbered by elves, it is a largely Goblin army where the core is likely the Altmer battlemages, warriors and spellswords. I would say probably a generous mix, because I doubt goblins are very disciplined and would need constant whip cracking.

However the report also mentions that the Imperial City was overrun and sacked by elves. so we can't just assume that they use more Goblins than actual elvish soldiers. It is likely, however, that they use goblins as the vanguard and the elves mop up or the battlemages function as artillery.

This is dependent on whether or not Aldmeri Goblins are anything like their cousins in Morrowind, in which case, may actually suffice for a military force, and in the case of the Altmer, may be beneficial due to the fact they don't produce children like bunnies as Men do. That being said, we really don't have any decent description of their battle tactics during the great war, although I would be careful when stating descriptions that say "Elves did it." due to the Aldmeri being in control. I don't think they'd make the distinction even if goblins were present.

Three thoughts:

1.) What if "Thalmor" means "Beautiful" in Aldmeris? That at least would make a connection with PGE 3 without being as [censored] cheesy a name as "the Beautiful" (ugh).

2.) I vote for "radical regressivism" and "mythoterrorism" as words to describe the Thalmor's actions before they took power in their coup.

3.) Could the Thalmor be Nu Hatta's Ayleids?

Unlikely. The beautiful were presented as a relatively new radical group, while the Thalmor were rulers of both Aldmeri Dominions.
That works.
They don't strike me as being from the same cloth, honestly.