@Martut: Well, it was kind of supposed to be depressing, but yeah, it did sometimes get excessive.


I haven't played Morrowind so I don't know how combat works there, I was drawing on my experiences with other RPGs in which the computer opponents tend to have the inherent advantage of impeccable aiming even at low levels. Granted, some of said RPGs are 20 years old so my experiences may be somewhat dated in comparison.

The comment on combat perks is based on experiences in Oblivion gates where a power attack from a Dremora would stun me or knock me down even when I had 100 Agility, which is supposed to prevent such things.

Actually, longswords and Claymores are used completely differently. Claymores are more.. clumsy, for lack of a better word, than longswords. It's the exact same as the difference between daggers and longswords. And, in the current games, claymores and longswords ARE grouped together, anyway. What's your point here? And a shortsword, in Morrowind, at least, takes the same skill as a dagger. They're both under "Short Blades". Personally, I'd like a medium blade skill. But, I'm pretty alone on it. No point Bethesda tailoring the game for me. :shrug:

Let's keep combat entirely in the hands of the player - all statistical scruples aside, my Orc Barbarian should have a better chance of killing a Mudcrab than I would. "Hit, hit, miss, miss, hit, miss, hit" isn't how epic battles are fought.

That being said, I still think statistical chance should play a part - namely in security and speechcraft. Investing in either skill in Oblivion is a complete waste of time.

Well they were completely different fighting systems, and I liked both. I prefer Oblivion's though, mainly because it had a lot better animations.

I prefer character skill, as it isn't me attacking the enemies, it's my character, so I should only be able to do well what my character can do well.

I voted for Morrowind's combat system.

Morrowind or Daggerfall. Both determine by stats, both by chances, both by failure, both by dodge, and both is alot more toon base rather than player base in term of combat. Only things that is going for Oblivion is Block and the use of magic while in combat mode (in which Daggerfall and Modded-Morrowind can do as well).

REAL combat with lethal weapons would be more like: feint, dodge, step back, step up and jab, then cover or parry, etc. There wouldn't be nearly as much offensive action, and very little firm committment to an attack, when one slip of your defenses could mean death or crippling injury. I viewed a lot of those MW "misses" as times where you'd "want" to strike, but couldn't because you were too busy dodging, blocking, or parrying, or the opponent was doing so. Unfortunately, the lack of animations really hurt, so MW's combat LOOKED awful. Oblivion's combat looked much better, but was ultimately just as shallow, because your character's skills really didn't affect the flow of combat other than by adding a couple of extra points to your damage. It actually paid NOT to choose a weapon skill as a Major.

In real armored combat, you either have to use enough force to penetrate the armor (strength), or else enough finess to avoid it and aim for the weak spots (speed and skill). The quick jab or slash that might incapacitate an unarmored opponent, or at least slow them down, won't usually have much effect, so the fighters "dance" around each other and make jabs and feints until one or the other manages to get a strike to do damage. At that point, the weakened opponent is in mortal danger, because the other fighter now has a better chance to land a more forceful strike without having it blocked, parried, or countered.

Neither the MW combat system nor the Oblivion one captures the flavor of "realistic" combat. Both are just different ways of clicking away varying quantities of hitpoints at varying rates with little apparent effect until one fighter or the other suddenly runs out of hitpoints and falls over (or, in OB, suddenly flies through the air to land in a heap). MW just varies the percentage of hits based on skill, while OB varies the number of points deducted with each strike. Sorry, but I don't find EITHER method all that spectacular. One is more "RPG" friendly, while the other is more "Action" friendly, but neither is "right". OB's combat is adequate if you're just looking for "thrills", while I prefer MW's combat as nothing more than a fairly quick means of "resolving encounters" so I can get on with the exploration and adventure parts of the game that I enjoy.

What about something like DA:O's Combat system, minus the RTS aspects like pausing and selecting special attacks at the bottom of the screen?

Who knows, Bethesda could have made things a lot better, I think we just have to trust them on this one.

Morrowind. I'm a Dungeons and Dragons player, I like being able to fail.

I preferred Oblivion's combat much much more. I almost never got into Morrowind at all because of the whole weapon going through the enemy like a hologram thing.

@Martut - I'd be fine with it, even if it did have the pausing and whatnot. IMO, Arena and Daggerfall had good combat, Morrowind' had okay combat and Oblivion's could be vastly improved. I do think that Dragon Age's combat is the best, though.

What is an RPG video game, besides a big, virtual board game, right?

So, to apply Oblivion's combat system to reality, two players would have to sit there smashing their game pieces together until a piece broke off of one. That's why Oblivion's fights take so long.

In Morrowind, every time you press the attack button, there is a little stabbing animation on the screen. But, what is really happening, is that you are rolling dice.

So, no matter how many times you press that attack button, if your skills and stats and fatigue and equipment don't add up, you will never roll a good number. So, instead of living out the fight, in the moment, like an FPS, you're meant to plan out the encounter then watch it play out, like a board game.

RPG video games don't imply that they're based off of a board game in the manual for the same reason that turn-based strategy games don't mention that they are just virtual Risk... royalties, I assume.

For those who think that type of combat system is dead because we are in a new generation of gaming or some silliness.... see WoW. That game has a pretty huge casual audience and it's combat is click once, then watch your guy miss a ton of times.

Demon's Souls is the ultimate melee weaponry sim - Bethesda would do well to learn from it.

Essentially, retain Oblivion's dynamic combat. But, give the weapons real heft to them. Make a mace feel different from a sword - give greater penalties to fatigue for bigger weapons. Give certain weapons greater defensive capabilities, while having some that require the player to let their guard down to attack.

For those who haven't played this (spectacular) game, here's what I mean: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9V5hXRjNgs

As far as melee fighting goes, I think that neither Oblivion's nor Morrowind's system is perfect. However, I think that Morrowind's is highly supperior. Its flaws are more or less cosmetic, like the lack of propper annimations whereas the flaws of Oblivion's system are in its core itself. In Oblivion I espcially do not like the fact that you can substitute skill with a weapon by the quality of a weapon. So, if you svck in a weapon skill, getting a better weapon would compensate for this. In Morrowind you can have the most deadly and badass weapon available, but if you lack the skill to use it, you are done for. That sounds more realistic then Oblivion's symplification of combat
The only thing that really bothered me about Morrowind's system is that unlike with the amgic system you could not go for a more secure less efficient attack. Let me explain. With magic, you could choose whther you will use high risk-high reward spells, i.e. spells that do a lot of damage, but are likely to fail, or if you go the path of weaker, reliable spells. In melee combat you did not have this possibility. I'm not sure how to implement it really, but it would be nice if you could choose how difficult your movement will be. Perhaps by how long you will hold the attacking button. If you just jab with your weapon, only clicking the attacking key, you would have a high chance for success, but you would do little damage. The longer you hold the button, the stronge, but also more difficult the attack is. It would be nice to have some on screen indicator telling you how likely you are to fail as you hold down the attack key. Of coruse this is just a quick thought and would require a lot of work to be put into it to make a it a viable possibility, but it might work in some way.
As far as magic system goes, I guess that for its time Morrowind's system is totally perfect. Of course, now we would expect richer effects, more physics manipulation and so on, but again, these are just cosmethics again, however important



Not only DA:O. All oldschool RPGs had this kind of combat and I love it. It would be nice if you could pause the game and have time to plan an select the porpper action you wish to do. For this, I'm very geratful taht at leat the game is paused when I enter the inventory. If nothing else, I hope that Beth retains this feature.

Morrowinds system was abysmal. Love the game, but the combat system just drives me insane. Miss, miss, miss, miss, die, esc, quit game, load Oblivion again

Oblivions is fine. Far from perfect, but playable. Mount & Blade hast the best combat system I've ever played, and I'm an avid player of historical action games (not so much fantasy or modern action)

If TES:V implemented a similair system it would be perfect, however, seen as it demands a lot of player skill, I doubt many people would be for it

And you, my good sir, are either a huge idiot that uses weapons you have no skill in, or you haven't played Morrowind.

Too bad Daggerfall wasn't a choice. I would choose that without hesitation.

But if I must choose between those two, I pick Morrowind. At least my stats/skills feel meaningful in that one. (Played both btw) In my opinion, a mage with a pathetic weapon skill shouldn't be able to scratch his enemy to death.

I fully agree.

Daggerfall's was perfect, Morrowind's was nice, Oblivion's was okay, but it totally broke tradition and made combat completely out of character.

Morrowind's had a much nicer progression - with every increase in my attributes and skills, I could tell I was hitting more often, doing more damage. With Oblivion my character feels like some detached, dehumanized helicopter propeller just swinging his blade around like an idiot - it just becomes a haze to me.



I know the game tells you to pick up the damned dagger in the Census and Excise office, but unless you have a skill in Short Blade, you're better off just running past that big mean scary Mudcrab outside of town. Oh, and FATIGUE - get this, it actually has a purpose in Morrowind! Don't expect to do any better if you're completely exhausted.

Overall, Morrowind's but in ESV hopefully they find a mid-way point between the two.

As long as I can miss, I'm good :thumbsup:

Yes I'm well aware that if I use a higher skill I hit alot more often, (Never used a skill I was bad at anyways, I'm not an idiot just because I disliked something about Morrowind. ) I still like Oblivion's style alot more.

Daggerfall had best fighting in TES. But I voted for Oblivion. Morrowinds style is too much clicking the left mouse button. In Oblivion you could at least do some power attacks but they both svcked. TES V combat system should be more like in M&M Dark Messiah.

I would say that it's not so much you missing as it is the enemy dodging.

Yeah - Morrowind's system of combat was more or less present in Daggerfall as well, but in that game missed attacks were often accompanied by a whoosh or the sound of weapons clanging, so it didn't seem as inexplicable.