I personally preferred Oblivion's melee combat system as it gave the player a lot more control by allowing the player to choose when to block and avoiding that annoying random miss, though I liked Morrowind's spell system, as it didn't lockout spells that were above your skill level (IIRC).

Though i think the combat system could be improved further. Perhaps the massive HP pools could remain but there could be certain weak points that would pretty much one shot the opponent and would be difficult to hit (though not impossible (basically locational damage which has been suggested many many times)).



[EDIT]: My problem isn't necessarily that you can miss, it's just that when you do miss it's often when you're aiming at something that's as big as the broadside of a barn. I'd rather see a system in which when you swing/cast there's a margin of error, kinda of like a small circle in which your attack can randomly land, as your skill increases the circle gradually decreases in size making it much less likely that you'll miss your target (unless it's the size of a fly ).

I prefer Morrowind myself, and I think it has an unfair rap. It isn't as jarring or difficult as people claim if you use the system as it was meant to be used. I enjoy playing it very much. Yes, animations for missing and dodging would have been nice to be able to visually see a miss or dodge, but such was the nature of the beast back then.

:facepalm:

I've played Morrowind multiple times, but yes you are right, I must've been blindly swinging a spear around afting majoring in short blades. Another case cracked Sherlock



Don't get me started on choosing between walking everywhere or missing everything, but lets not turn this into another Morrowind vs Oblivion thread. I know Morrowinds die hard fans will defend it to the grave

*grabs popcorn*

:whisper: It goes both ways.

I didn't particularly think any of them was any good compared to other games. I think Oblivion lays the greatest foundation to be build upon with some of the stuff in morrowind. But it definitely needs to be build upon.

(I just contradicted myself. Editing to make myself clear...)

I liked Oblivion's system of being able to hit a target without near-constant missing. It's just really frustrating to be whaling on a cliff racer for two minutes as a starter character majoring in that weapon because you miss so much... despite being in that cliffracer's face (and it happens on just about every new character). I also like that you can even hit with a weapon you're not good at (though I think Agility should figure more into how much you can dodge. I mean, even if someone isn't skilled in heavy armor, I'd still expect you to try and dodge if you have a high agility). But whether or not you actually do damage I think should depend on your skill (Morrowind-style).

Lemme rephrase:

The chances of you hitting: High if you're using a weapon that you trained in, but low if not, modified by Agility and Luck
Damage: weapon skill, luck, and strength or I guess agility again for bows/marksmen (maybe skill is percent of fixed weapon damage you do? If you just started using warhammers, I see no reason that you should be able to fully utilize all the damage a Daedric Warhammer can deliver, even when you do hit)

Think of it this way. If I was mugged on a street, I may miss with a switchblade because I don't typically fight with one (think: flailing), but if I'm fast and lucky, I may just score a hit. If I'm completely uncoordinated, then I won't hit jack. If, on the other hand, I'm strong and lucky enough to land a hit, I may stun the attacker. If I pull out a miracle and manage to be quick, strong, and lucky, I may score a serious critical wound without training in short blades (lol).

I'm thinking this Morrowblivion-esque system would make luck important (it never hurts to be lucky) and make it so that it may be possible to chip away at someone until they die, but you better be lucky and have a lot of time (and health) on your hands to do so.

i like morrowind better. although you miss a fair few times at level one my char with the warrior birthsign hits ~54% of the time at level 6. The key is to persever. I played OB first so i got quickly bored but once i stuck with it those clifracers where not a problem anymore (appart from their numbers). The comparatively little health the enemies have (one big swing with my silver spear and down goes the ancestor ghost) made up for the misses where each hit made a significant difference, which is unlike OB (Goblin Shamans come to mind).

Morrowinds all the way, i like agility, fatique, luck and skill playing a part in whether i hit or miss, it just takes a little more imagination due to the lack of animations.
Oblivions combat makes me feel like im playing an action game more then an RPG.

I really don't remember ever having more than 2-4 misses per hit, even at level one. I always play with Difficulty at 50.

For melee combat neither, I prefer the mount and blade style of melee combat

If I'm not playing a stealth character, I don't put much into agility. As such, I have a hulking brute who can probably one-hit kill it. If I can connect. Which takes a while. XD

What do people have against a little player skill being involved? If Fallout fans cared everyone would use VATS for every shot, but more often than not experienced players prefer to not use VATS at all. It seems like the opposite for TES, experienced players prefer character skill over player skill?

I can see why for skills like security, repair (armorer), and (in some cases) magic, but with melee attacks, it doesn't make any sense, in Morrowind the absence of combat animations other than the swinging of the weapon made it acceptable (but also annoying, clunky, and unrealistic imo). Character skill shouldn't magically make your sword miss your opponent and people who defend it by saying that they dodged it but it isn't shown due to Morrowind's lack of animations, tell me why it isn't based on your opponent's skill instead of yours.

Character skill shouldn't impair someone's player skill, if having a lower skill would mean doing less damage (lighter impact due to less strength or however you want to explain it) then so be it, there are other ways to make character skill a bigger factor than play skill, instead of awkward thing that was Morrowind combat. The days of Morrowind style combat are over anyways, even if most people here did prefer it (which I know they don't, most people prefer Oblivion's combat system from what I've seen), Bethesda would never bring it back, because some 12 year old console player out there doesn't have the attention span to swing a sword over and over and miss continuously and I wouldn't blame him. Its boring and unimmersive.

Oblivion isn't really a player-skill based game. The problem is that some people don't seem to know what a true action game is. Oblivion gives the player control, but has the character's skill determine how the controlled action plays out(except the mini-games are more player skill-oriented). The difference in Oblivion's combat mechanics is that skill determines damage instead of chance to hit. It's a little different, but it's character skill-based. Pleasing animations and choosing when to block seem to be what people are referring to as player skill, but it really isn't It's just pleasing animations and player choice. It's not hard to get into a rhythm of block and attack when the enemy recoils. Take away the simple ability to choose when block and replace Oblivion's animations with Morrowind's and many people wouldn't know the different. As I said, Oblivion's skills determine damage dealt(or in the case of spells, spell cost and available spells for casting) instead of chance to hit, which results in the same type of combat, but this time, you always hear you weapon hit your enemy if you swing in their direction and you choose when to block.

That is pretty much what I was trying to say, which is why I'm not really sure why some people like Morrowind's system better, Oblivion's isn't perfect it just needs some fine tuning to make it acceptable to the people who tend to prefer one over the other.

Because the people who hate Oblivion will ensure that while it was a vast improvement over Morrowind's combat system, it "wasn't good enough".

I don't think that I would call Oblivions combat system an improvement over Morrowinds. I think it was completely different.Which is just what Bethesda keeps on saying they like to do, build each TES game from the ground up.

That being said, I think that the combat system in Oblivion, as it was presented, falls short of what we (I, anyway) expect from an action rpg today, and is therefore less fun today then it was in 2006. Because the combat system in Morrowind is based off of dice rolls, I have a much easier time recognizing the combat on-screen as a very basic representation of how the fight would go. Also, not having to focus as much on blocking and dodging in Morrowind allows me to sit back, relax, and use my imagination to picture how a fight would really go between my character and his opponent(s).

Both ways have there merits, but if they continue along the path of what they did in Oblivion and Fallout 3 (which I imagine they will), I hope they can find a way to make the combat more entertaining to watch.

Umm... You are playing Morrowind, right? I have one of these myself. Quite literally NEVER misses at around 70-80 weapon skill. (Which you should have at around level 5)

I like both for what they are. Both had flaws.

First of all, we're surrounded by mini-games throughout Oblivion and it's a real pain in the ass.

Second of all, the whole point to leveling in an RPG is to be able to come back later and own when some enemy destroyed you the first time around. When two characters are around the same level, then they are matched in skill and the outcome of the fight is, therefore, determined by the strategy of the player.

Yes, your skill determines the amount of damage, but you're always dealing the same ratio of damage because everything is scaled to your level. This means, that leveling is taken out of the equation and every fight is determined by how fast you are at blocking, then swinging. I know this because I've played Oblivion's combat.

Oblivion's whole game engine makes leveling irrelevant. When your level doesn't matter in every fight and the outcome of the fight depends on player reflexes because of it, then the game will play like an action game.

That's one reason why Oblivion is an action game. Because leveling is a novelty at best, it doesn't actually make you better or worse at fighting. Since everything else levels right along with you. The second thing that makes Oblivion an action game is the fact that the MQ and all guild quests are over-scripted linear stories with no choice. They can call it whatever they want and have your character level, but if your success is ultimately determined by your own reflexes and if there's no choice, then it's an action game.

Well, Oblivion's system is NOT a Morrowind's system enhanced. It is a different system going by different rules. Whenever there is diversity in style there are differnt opinions. That is why some people prefere Oblivion's style while others prefere Morrowind's. I cannot really see anything that strange here. The problem really starts when people (on either side of this debate) start to think that their preference, their opinion is the universal truth.



Certainly. The possibility that some might have a different ideas and preferences from you is indeed nonexistent. Since YOU think that Oblivion's combat is better it means that if someone sais a different think, he is a biased fanatic who is blindly straying form the only true path. It is nice to see a respect to other people's opinions. :thumbsup:

Oh and by the way, people who hate Oblivion would not bother comming to these forums.

Actually, I come to these forums because I still play Morrowind. Then, the evil invisible hand leads me astray and guides me towards general discussion.

Not saying I hated Oblivion when I played it. Just saying I don't play it anymore and it has nothing to do with why I'm a part of these forums.

You've said this many times throughout this thread, and I don't believe you are trying to exaggerate, but you most certainly are. Obviously misses will be much more rare at 80 than 40, but they do not NEVER happen. And getting to level 5 with a 75 in a weapon skill would mean at least 30 increases in a weapon skill, with 20 in your 9 other skills, most of which are passive, and level up without you necessarily trying to level them up. And I disagree that other people are exaggerating how much they miss, I think that is quite accurate. But it is really the same as Oblivion, it is just more frustrating to people.
In Oblivion, you'll click the mouse button 10 times, you'll hit an opponent 10 times, before they die. In Morrowind, you'll click the mouse button 10 times, and hit the opponent twice, before they die. It's really the same, but overall I prefer Morrowind's system because it has more potential. Morrowind's problem with its system was mostly cosmetic, while Oblivion's system had reached its fullest potential and we saw how it ended up.

So I say keep blocking up to the player, like Oblivion, but go back to Morrowind system. When you 'miss', simply have you opponent dodge out of the way, or block, or parry. And have several different animations for each. I don't want to see my opponent doing the same movement to dodge every one of my swings. Realistically, I would learn and anticipate what he was going to do and kill him. Have the dodge or block happen depending on your opponents block skill or agility, against your weapon skill and speed (or agility).

As it is, the system doesn't account for locational damage. To account for this, it could be made so that if you are aiming for your opponent's head, you are more likely to 'miss' than if you were aiming at the torso or limbs.

Oblivion by far. The combat system in Morrowind was terrible.

No, I'm really not. Even with a fresh character, if I'm not some moron who uses weapons I have no skill in, I'll hit roughly 60-70% of the time? Assuming I'm not even more of a moron who goes to kill level 20's at level 1.



No... They do NEVER happen. I've been playing Morrowind for... 7 years now? And I can honestly say that I have NEVER EVER EVER had anywhere near 2/10 hits on an enemy. I do this by using the weapons I have skill in, and not fighting Dagoth Ur as soon as I get off the boat at Seyda Neen.