Haven't been on the forums for anything in ages and I was wondering what's the deal with attributes? Apparently (and I know these parameters may be off, please don't split hairs with me) a level 1 Orc knight born under the warrior sign would have the exact same attributes as a level 1 Woodelf knight born under the warrior sign and they won't have any natural race attributes? Is this what I am to understand? Please inform me if I have misunderstand, but please be respectful, mind you it's been ages since I've been on.

First of all, no birth signs, and no classes. Now for the question.

Attributes are not in, however their effects are being replaced by perks. So, your Orsimer and Bosmer would have the same attributes (seeing as they'd both have N/A for attributes), however they'll still be differentiated through other means and gameplay mechanics that have yet to be confirmed. So your Orsimer and Bosmer would not be just as good knights starting the game.

Basically what Eldron said.

Also, racial bonuses are still in. So your Orc Knight would have different bonuses than your Wood Elf Knight.

We don't know what racial bonuses we'll be getting, but there will only be three attributes. Health, magicka and stamina. I haven't seen any confirmation that there aren't any birth signs, but others adamantly insist they too are gone. The skills have been reduced to 18 and some are still undefined. BGS seems to like releasing the same info repeatedly and throwing us bones on occasion.

Game informer has a hub you can go to and the bethblog has a list of links to magazine articles you can read. Other stuff is scattered hither and yon so good luck catching up.

There are no classes...? Bizarre. This almost seems to me like they're messing with things a little too much. I'm sure the game will still be a Platinum Hit but still. I don't know. You don't need to fix what isn't broken, you know?

It was broken, hence they fixed it.

The Todd said they were redundant.

You only use one to affect another. I'm still trying to see how that really works, but it is now etched in stone.

That was a painfully empty statement.

Indeed it was. The old system constricted you to a class before you got a chance to play the game and find out what you wanted and it did nothing more but give one a useless, arbitrary title and force them to level up a specific number of skills to achieve their full potential (as in "Why do I need to level up all 7 or 10 of these skills? I only want these 3 or 4!"). In addition, the old attribute system demanded grinding and "efficient leveling" in both Morrowind and Oblivion if one didn't want to end up with a character weaker than they could have been. The system was a mess.

Just a few words for clarification:

Players are not forced into playing one and only one class role due to an initial choice. If a player wants to choose the path of a warrior (melee weapons, archery, etc), they are more than free to do so through gaining EXP using those weapons. If a player wants to choose the path of a thief (daggers, stealth, etc), they are more than free to do so through gaining EXP engaging in those actions. If a player wants to choose the path of a mage (wands, staffs, magic, etc) they are more than free to do so through gaining EXP using those elements of the game. The class system is still very much in the game. BGS just isn't forcing players into one role and making it hard to learn other roles. Essentially, you have the freedom to create the kind of character you want. BGS won't force you to create a character that the game dictated by choices you made early on. We actually have more freedom and choice than we have ever had before.

I think I'm starting to like this.

Classes in TES were more of a hindrance to natural character development than a help, and I'm glad they are gone. The only time I paid attention to attributes was when I hit the level up screen and saw that I'd only got +2/+2/+3 and a load of wasted +1s, meaning that I'd be weaker later on in the game compared to levelled enemies.

I always used mods in MW and OB to take out the grind aspect of getting the optimal multipliers for attributes (so that you didn't end up weak at higher levels) - and this resulted in a more "behind the scenes" role for attributes which worked better - I think Skyrim is going to be better with them gone TBH.

Can anyone who is bemoaning the loss of attributes declare that they truly loved the levelling system in MW or OB? Really?

Attributes have not been replaced by perks. Attributes have been consolidated into Health, Magic, and Stamina because they are redundant. Perks have been added to the game to further customize your character and make him/her more unique than the next person. Attributes aren't gone.

I wouldn't worry about it. I bet you money you won't miss them all that much

There are, you just don't pick them when you create your character and its probably not stated anywhere in the game*. Your class develops naturally as you play.

In other words, your class develops dynamically throughout the game rather than something permanently fixed from the beginning.

*Though I think it would be a cool idea for the game to recognize what skills you are using and assign a class title that changes depending on your skill progression

The only time I used a preset class was the first time I made a character for Morrowind. There were so many skill choices that they were overwhelming.

I was used to D&D classes and nothing else, so I figured they were similar. Boy was I wrong. It didn't take long before I restarted the game and chose my own skills. This worked much better. Since then I never use classes, instead I focus on the skills I needed to advance my character.

In oblivion I didn't like how fast my attributes went up so I chose skills that I didn't use as often as class skills so I could reach higher levels. This took longer but it worked better. I also avoid increasing attributes with more than a +2 bonus

The removal of classes doesn't bother me at all. The attributes thing is something I'll need to get used to.

...wait. You wanted to SLOW your attribute gain?

Yes the longer it takes to get them all to 100 the more levels you can get. My highest is 84.

...levels are limited by skills, not attributes. Regardless of your attributes, as long as you can increase 10 levels of major/minor skills you can level up. I'm fairly certain you can max out all attributes and still level

It's been a couple of years since I had a character in that position so I can't argue one way or the other. I can rig one and find out later, though. I'm pretty sure I had to start over after reaching level 30 with one character. It could have been because of the skills as you say though.

Likely, the usual trick from maximizing leveling is to choose skills as major/minor that aren't boosted by racial bonuses and to choose a specialization that isn't shared by any of the major/minor skills

I just checked the max attributes thing and there is no way to level with your attributes maxed.

I got http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/Tlantl/ScreenShot53.jpg

Races start off with bonuses. other than that you are the same and you mold your character into something alot more customized.

Hmmm. I guess it goes both ways. Technically the only reason TO level is to gain attributes and health bonuses. I guess it's a bit diff in Oblivion because loot and creatures level with you. Gotta be some balance