Dunno. Last time i've checked it was using .45.70.
You don't find that many of them, adverse to MFCs, which can be farmed of Fiends pretty easily, and there's also no cheap bulk version of them.



Yes, never played without actually.
For HH, I'd just recommend using something different than the Tri-Beam, such as Q35 or the RCW (There aren't any high DT people/creatures xcept for Graham and Salt Upon Wounds, so that thing really works well there)- if it *has* to be some sort of EW.
I just go there with Gobi and nothing else.
In LR, you find plenty of ammo there, and by the time you should(can) have Pack Rat.




I always play with Built to destroy, and never ran into problems.
The only real fragile thing are the LAERs. But then, I'm a frequent scavenger of WKR parts, so I don't care.
And regardless if you count a Flamer as EW or not, the game surely does





Which is more than enough.

Regarding the declaration that Max Charge is obsolete...no, no it's not. Optimized, while nice, does less damage, and one other extremely important thing...it only has -5 DT! Max Charge has -10 DT, which, combined with the generally lowish damage-per-projectile of many energy weapons (not counting LAER, Holorifle, Plasma Caster) is a big, big, big, big, big deal.

And when you consider Shotgun Surgeon, or 5mm ammo, or AP ammo with its -15 to -25 DT, it's another weak point in the eweps arsenal.

Neither 5mm nor 12gauges have a 1.3x(that is 30% more, just sayin) damage modifier, also none of the weapons using this ammo are prone to score critical hits.
That is something people constantly overlook when comparing EW to Guns just by going with the Base Damage.
To me, the the 0.2x damage and additional -5DT of Max Charges do not outweigh the higher assembling costs(2.5 for 1MC vs 1.5 for 1opt) , and the much increased wear down rate.
I rather pull the trigger just another time.

But again, look at how the damage modifier works.

Which is superior vs. a 15 DT target: a Hunting Shotgun with Shotgun Surgeon and magnum rounds or a Tri-Beam Laser rifle with Optimized charge? The Hunting Shotgun. Why? Because each beam of the Tri-Beam Laser has suddenly had it's damage reduced by 10. It gets multiplied by 1.3 afterwards, yes, but that's AFTER the number you're multiplying has been reduced by half. Each beam of the Tri-Beam Laser (GRA version with the extra damage mod) does 25 damage, so 10 DT remaining means each beam only does 15 damage. 15 * 1.3 = 19.5 damage per beam for 58.5 damage total. Meanwhile what's the Hunting Shotgun doing? Only 3 DT is effecting it, so more base damage lives through to see the multiplier. 7x7 =49, then you take 49 x1.3 and get 63.7 damage.

Yes the Tri-Beam Laser fires much faster, but that's part of the problem: Most energy weapons are designed to be damage-per-second weapons, which is counter-intuitive considering their ammo is so damn heavy, expensive and hard to find. You said .45-75 Gov't is the expensive round: it's one cap more expensive than the Microfusion cell. However, the difference is you're practically REQUIRED to make maximum charge cells (or optimized if that's your preference) to take down high DT targets effectively, whereas for any gun ammo type, you just buy the damned round. Basic guns round is typically 4 caps, then Hollow Point or Armor piercing is 9. Microfusion cells are 3 caps, yeah, but you're gonna need at least 3 for ANY hollow point or armor-piering qualities (the latter being VERY neccesary) and at least five for the best stuff, meaning 15 caps per round. Then it gets worse because weapons like the Tri-beam laser rifle fire three shots a round, meaning that's 45 caps PER SHOT. What's worse, you're STILL going to be firing more shots than your guns counterparts. While the Medicine Stick can achieve 156 damage on a sneak attack critical (this is before modifiers, both good and bad; a headshot for example doubles that damage, and Cowboy and Psycho increase it by more), a Tri-Beam Laser Rifle can only achieve 122 (if all three beams connect), again, making the Medicine Stick a better contender for a sneak attack, meaning less shots neccesary to spend. The Gobi Sniper is no different: 128 damage on a sneak attack.
And yes it's not always about the sneak attacks, but those numbers I listed are under OPTIMAL situations. That's the potential damage per shot, so it speaks worlds about how many shots that gun needs to fire compared to others. Considering the Tri-beam laser rifle is spending thrice the ammo (or more. Again, the Medicine Stick can shoot a 15 DT target and simply drop from 156 damage to 141, the Tri Beam on the other hand would drop from 122 to 77 unless you use good DT piercing cells; the maxed charge are, in this sense, practically a neccesity) to end up hitting weaker, that's atrocious.


The BASE damage and the crit damage are the most important part of the equation, the second most important part is the enemy's defense. The problem with energy weapons is their base damage is none too impressive and they're surprisingly suseptible to enemy defense despite being designed as DPS weapons, so the result is you end up going on a hoarding spree to get enough ammo to get the job done, and then as a reward, your weapon needs constant repairs. Meanwhile a gun has practically none of these same problems...


Which is why I praise the Sprtel-Wood 9700 above all. It doesn't suffer from these problems that seem to plague it's family.

You forgot the 20% bleedthrough rate, you didn't take in the effects of Laser Commander & Camarader-E, and you didn't factor in the devastating critical hits of the Tri-Beam. You've nailed it much better in your OP MFCs can be found on Fiends, who are not exactly uncommon. They can be bought as dirt cheap bulk ammo, too. .45-70 can only be found on high level Legion or NCR folk, so you have to rely on vendors much more. Your calculations are not correct. A sneak crit does double the damage of a normal critical hit, so it would be 312, 244, and 256. Other than some opponents in the Deathclaw alpha range, more than enough to kill everything else in one shot. Comparing a DPS weapon with one that has its strength in damage per shot just to complain about how the DPS weapon can't keep up in DAM per shot doesn't lead anywhere. I also don't think DT works as implied by you. I think it is just substracted from the total attack damage, rather than applied on every pellet. If your assumption was true, a Riot Shotgun without Shotgun Surgeon would be less effective on a regular 10DT NCR trooper than a 9mm Pistol. and this is just not the way it goes in the game I also have *very* hard time believing in your claim, ammo effects would be calculated *after* DT was applied. This makes *no* sense at all. I killed the 25DT, 3000HP X-42 with my Tri-Beam, and it did not take me very long. There's a reason for that...

Lore-wise, isn't it possible to justify guns' relative efficiency over energy weapons by positing that because guns are easier and cheaper to use and hence much more popular, gun-making technology has progressed much more while energy weapons technology remain at basically pre-war levels? A suitable historical anolog might be the development of gunpowder weapons vs. bow-type weapons.

Plasma Caster is also a good, solid choice. With a base damage of 65 and a crit damage of 65, boosted by the Max Charge cells damage and DT reduction, it is a highly reliable and fairly ammo-effecient source of firepower for the Eweps user. Of course, it requires Strength 8, and 100 skill, so it's only in late game that it really comes into play. It's also heavy, and there are very few perks that affect it.

Perks like Cowboy and Grunt give Guns another huge edge. Cowboy's +25% damage applied to a weapon as powerful as the Medicine Stick is rather rude. While the Holorifle, Gauss Rifle, Tesla Cannon, and Plasma Caster have no equivalent perk. You can always go for a LAER and Camarader-E + Laser Commander, but then you've sacrificed almost all your critical damage, and tied yourself to an immensely fragile weapon.

Despite the availability of Weapon Repair Kits, I don't particularly want to have to carry around 50 of the blasted things.

Okay I just maxed out my crit chance and crit damage through various perks and bought 10000 Electron Cells from Bardon and converted 6000 of them to 1200 MC cells to test out the Sprtel.

VATS sneak attack crits = God. Though there's something odd about its VATS attack. Unless you have a good position on the enemies' head, not all of the shots will connect. Not sure if this is just a visual effect though.

Free firing kills enemies rather quickly since you can amass critical hits often and is even more brutal if you use Implant GRX and aim for the head. High DT enemy? Not too much of a concern.

Other than its HP when using MC ammo I approve of this weapon.

20% bleedthrough only happens if you don't manage to deal more than 20% of your original damage.




And only Fiends. .45-70 can be found in bulk at the Hoover Dam, the Great Khan Armorer and....I know I'm forgetting somebody. (Oh right, Contreras)
But it's not even an issue of how common it is but rather the demand for the ammo. If you were to visit the Great Khan Armorer, Contreras and the Hoover Dam, you'd probably find ~2000+ .45-70 Gov't bullets. If you visited the Great Khan Armorer, Hoover Dam, Cliff Briscoe and West Side Pawn Shop, you'd find probably 1500 Microfusion cells. If you wanted, you could convert other energy weapon types into Microfusioncells and get 2000+. But the problem is the Medicine Stick uses one bullet per shot, most energy weapons do not. Even if you found 3000 MFCs (which you'd absolutely struggle to carry as that's 300 pounds before Pack Rat), you'd only have 1000 shots. If you combine those to Optimized (which as I said, you DEFINITELY want), then you only have ~333 shots for your Tri-Beam Laser Rifle. If you have 3000 .45-70 Gov't bullets, that's something you can carry if you truly want to (195 pounds) and 3000 = 3000.


No, my calculations are correct. The reason Sneak attack damage wasn't included is because that's a x2 damage multiplier that occurs AFTER you factor in your opponent's resistances. There's no point in including that multiplier because it effects them all and because that fails to factor in the enemy's defenses, which will reduce the initial number. As an example, earlier I mentioned 15 DT dropping the Medicine Stick down to 141 and the Tri Beam tumbles down to 77; well there you go, that DEFINITELY matters. Suddenly the Tri-Beam isn't going to be able to one shot, even after some x2 multipliers. And again, all three beams connecting is another factor to worry about; a single beam missing means a third of the damage is gone.



No no, my point was, would ANYONE use the 12.7mm Submachine gun if each round weighed .1 pounds? Hell no. And yet energy weapons function as though they were DPS weapons BUT their ammo DOES weigh .1 pound per cell. Hence, this is why people would rather use a 12.7mm submachine gun instead of a laser rifle.

And that's the damage formula.

The exact formula, off the top of my head, is:

(((Base damage + (Crit damage * crit amps)) * Enemy damage resistance) - (enemy damage threshold - Armor piercing rate)) * all other damage amplifiers (Cowboy, Laser Commander, Psycho, Lady Killer, Lord Death, Maximum charge or Hollow Point etc etc etc)

It makes sense that way too. If DT were subtracted at the end of the total, there'd be no purpose in ever using armor piercing rounds. For example, if what YOU said was true, then it'd be far more worth it to use hollow point bullets for the Medicine Stick at all times, because the x1.75 damage multiplier would be more powerful than DT multiplier; you'd always increase your damage to 136 (without a crit) and even if the enemy had a 15 damage threshold multiplied by three to 45, 136 - 45 is 91, which is STILL superior to the initial 78 damage. With my formula, that - 45 damage is absolutely devistating, because then it means my base damage is reduced to 33, and 33 x 1.75 is only 57 damage instead of the initial 78.

It's simply wiser to design the game with the formula I listed, because otherwise armor piercing rounds become worthless. And sure enough, that's the formula they used.








I always thought the same.

The Gun Runners are doing a wonderful job of reviving the guns of the old world, recovering ways to build them and perfect them. Energy weapons, on the other hand, only have a "terrorist group" that swears to attack anyone who tries to use them. Thus, gun technology is advancing whereas energy weapon technology is actually moving backwards.

All I see of this topic is crits crits crits!

I've tried a pure DAM EW playthrough. The obvious choice with this would be the Holorifle. However, after a few runs through LR with this, its clear its not quick enough to save my hide from Tunnlers or Deathclaws.

So the next choice is the Sprtel-wood 9700. Doing 41 DAM per shot, having a very good amount of HP and being able to carry large amounts of ammo from drained MF cells, it becomes to EW what Mercy is to anything.

But thats just one useful EW weapon compared to how many guns? The Survivalist's rifle does over 89 DAM, has abundant lightweight ammo and can last a long time.
Thats just one of many guns.

Every EW is trumped in every catagory by another type of weapon. Thats where the problem lies.

I never denied that the YCS/186 does a lot more damage then the Hunting Rifle, that's not the point I was getting at. When it comes to my caps I must admit that I'm very cheap, I'll usually only buy very expensive weapons if I know I have enough scavenged gear to off set the price. This is also why I pretty much never spend the caps to pay someone to repair my gear if it costs over 500 caps and the YCS/186 will cost a lot more. Three Weapon Repair Kits is enough to repair any weapon with high enough Repair, that's not the point. The point is that the YCS/186 durability is so low that you'll be using a lot to keep it at its best. I also don't just use the Hunting Rifle, I don't believe I said anything like that, but it is one of the most reliable weapons in the game and it is my main sniping weapon for most of it.
The Hunting Rifle is still my choice for a sniping weapon. The Gobi is a great Gun, but it still has just over half the HP, just under double the spread, a weaker scope and lower base damage. The weapon I actually turn to the most for my next sniping weapon is the other unique Sniper Rifle: Christine's COS Silencer Rifle.

When weapons get this close, it really depends on the users preference. I prefer low spread, high HP, easy to repair and easy to find ammo.

Not really.

The problem (if there is any) is the effort it takes for Energy Weapons to compete with Guns. Energy Weapons can kill just as easily as Guns if not more.

No Gun can autokill like the Sonic Emitter - Tarantula.

What Gun can paralyze enemies like the Compliance Regulator?

Guns can't regenerate ammo like the MF Hyperbreeder Alpha.

If you made that claim BEFORE DLC came out I might have agreed with you.

I think you're all undermining Energy Weapons simply because of the effort it takes to make them usuable compared to Guns. Just because something isn't as good as something does not mean it can't do the job as efficiently.

I never undermind EW.... I was making the point that the best sniper rifle in the game is an EW.. YCS/186..... I personally just am a Fiend for Gun powder.... and explosives....

But I do think EW are quite fun to play with... and requir zero effort to do massive damage..... outside of skill points.... What's his name said that the YCS/186 will break down faster than other guns.. but thats now true... becasue your shooting it less.... Other weapones may have more HP... but you shoot them alot more.. and the ratio in my opinion is better with the YCS/186... I may be wrong i guess, if you want to get technicnal.... and the reload at every shot is not bad... its pretty fast...

I was just explaining why I prefer the fully modded Hunting Rifle to the YCS/186. I agree that the YCS/186 is a weapon that should not be used often, I was just saying that if you used it for most of the game then you would definitely start to notice the massive dent in your caps. This is exactly why I love the Hunting Rifle so much, its a weapon that can be used for the entire game without difficulty.

Going by your logic that would happen whenever firing a Riot Shotgun at a NCR Trooper, meaning it would be outperformed by a .357 Magnum Revolver


Where do have that from?


I don't think an overpowered top-tier weapon like the Medicine Stick is a suitable example to prove your point.
Of course, with an extremely high damage output 5-6x times higher than an opponents DT, you'll get exactly to that point.
But only then.
On the other hand, your calculation method contradicts completely what the game tells you about the damage of a weapon and an opponents damage threshold.
It turns the fixed Threshold into a dynamic Damage Resistance.
Let's go with the Tri-Beam with optimzed ammo and lets apply both our models.

I: (22 dam* 3 beams* *1.3 modifier) -10 remaining Deathclaw DT = 75.8 pts of damage

You (22 dam - 10 DT) *3 beams *1.3 modifier = 46.8 damage.

You see, your 10DT effectively become 40 DT.
That damage saving effect funnily would even get bigger the higher the damage multiplier of the ammo.

Let's take an even more obvious example, X-42 with a 25DT

I: (22 dam* 3 beams* *1.3 modifier) - 20 remaining DT = 65.8 pts of damage

You: (22dam-20 DT)* 3beams *1.3 mutliplier = 7.8 pts of damage -> Bleedthrough applied -> 13.2 pts of damage

Yes, if that was true, the Tri-Beam would be a lousy pea shooter.
Strange thing is, I kicked X-42s butt with it in like 20-25 shots.
Can you explain how this could be possible if your model was describing the in-game reality?

Which it does. Which is why Shotgun Surgeon exists.





A while back several of us wanted to fully understand the damage formula. We checked the wiki, found one (but it was wrong), thought of possible damage formulas, thought of how the armor piercing rounds would be useless end-game unless there was a specific formula, then we took a situation and calculated out the outcome according to different formulas, then someone would load up the game, re-inact the situation and see what number came up as the result. Eventually we figured out that formula and came to the conclusion that base damage and crit damage are far more valuable than anything else because those are the only two that exist BEFORE the multipliers. The only thing I don't recall is if DT comes before DR or vice versa, but the damage amps definitely come after the enemy defenses.





Which is exactly how it works. Which is why the Tri-Beam, and Energy Weapons in general, don't do as well as guns. They tend to never exceed 30 points of damage, so DT really hurts them.

I never take that perk, nevertheless the Riot Shotgun seemed always very powerful to me.


Again, explain then how I could defeat a 3000HP, 25DT enemy that quick then.
Explain why so many people still feel the Tri-Beam is darn powerful.
Because it's clearly not the way it works.
In your model there is no such thing as a Damage Threshold, your model only knows Damage Resistance.
To underline the flaw in your model a bit more:
You apply the ammo damage modfier on the DT. The more damaging a special ammo type is, the higher your DT gets.
That is not logical, and it also doesn't happen in the game

(((Base damage + (Crit damage * crit amps)) * Enemy damage resistance) - (enemy damage threshold - Armor piercing rate)) * all other damage amplifiers (Cowboy, Laser Commander, Psycho, Lady Killer, Lord Death, Maximum charge or Hollow Point etc etc etc)

Damage threshold is there, as is the reduction it receives based on the ammo used.

The wiki still shows a different formula:

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout:_New_Vegas_combat

Whether that one's correct? I dunno (from our calculations here on the forum, no, if I remember correct), but it agrees with me that amps come at the very end, and thus the enemy DT is more drastic vs. a weapon like the Tri-Beam.

And it's obvious it works that way. Take a look at the notes on this mod:

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Laser_rifle_beam_splitter

With your formula, splitting the beam wouldn't matter at all, since DT would just be subtracted at the end.

Yep, and the higher the ammo damage, the better the DT gets. Where is the logic in that?
Threshold is a fixed amount, what you're creating here is a dynamic figure, related the the respective damage output.
That is Damage Resistance and not a Threshold.


The wiki is only assuming, too


So, yeah they got the point, that something can't be right with their model.


I never tried that thing. If it was true, it would confirm, that DT is applied on every beam.
It wouldn't prove your assumption, that all amps are multiplied with the enemies' DT

It applies. That's why you use Slugs in shotguns against enemies with decent DT. Each pellet is considered a seperate attack. But the Tri-beam and the Multiplas don't have a 'slug' varient to fire. They're great against soft targets, but against hard targets you do much better with a weapon that fires a single bolt. It's why I never apply a Beam Splitter to my laser rifle anymore. You can mitigate it somewhat with Max Charge ammo, to get the -10 DT, but against heavily armored foes, that may not be enough.

Now, against soft targets, the Tri-beam, Multiplas, and Gatling Laser excel. What annoys me is that Shotguns get Shotgun Surgeon, granting -10 DT to each pellet. Miniguns have a default -10 DT that can go up to -25 for completely negligable damage reduction.

And the poor Laser Pistol and Recharger Rifle are just crap.

It's worse if you play with a mod that eliminates the 'bleedthrough' or reduces it. I'm personally a fan of those mods, too, because I don't think that a peashooter should do anything at all to someone in power armor.

You've misunderstood.

What happens is you have your base damage and crit damage. Those two numbers are combined. Let's say the two combined hit for 100 damage.
Then those two numbers together are filtered through Damage resistance first. Let's say the enemy has a DR of 10, so 10% of 100 is 90.
Next, the enemy's DT is subtracted from your total. Let's take 15 DT as an example. 90 -15 = 75.

NOW after all that's done, NOW the amps are calculated in. Maximum charge amp for example: 1.5x damage, so in this case, 75 x1.5 = 110 total

The difference this makes is that if the damage amp came at the beginning, you'd get a different number. 100 x 150 = 150 damage, take 10% off and get 135, take -15 into play and you still have 120 damage remaining.
The problem with this formula is that weapons like YCS/186, the Brush Gun and the AMR would suddenly be able to hit for INSANE amounts. The Brush Gun, you'd always want hollow point bullets no matter the enemy's DT, the AMR you'd never use armor piercing rounds and the YCS would again, hit insane amounts.


For a bigger example, let's take Brush Gun with hollow point bullets vs. a -15 DT enemy with a headshot sneak attack critical, Psycho, Cowboy, Lonesome Road and Thought You Died.

My formula:

150 damage - 15 = 135
135 x2 x2 x1.25 x1.25 x1.10 x1.10 = 1020 damage

Your formula

150 x2 x2 x1.25 x1.25 x1.10 x1.10 = 1134.37 damage
1134.37 - 15 = 1116.37

See how with yours, DT is an absolute joke, whereas with mine, DT can make a big difference? Why would they bother including DT if it was going to be a joke?

I see a mistake. Don't Hollow Point bullets double or triple the DT? So you should be subtracting 30 or 45 instead of 15.

i didn't. The formula is clear. You multiply the DT with player amps. There's no denying that.
What you're trying here is to create a scenario where your model would still produce a reasonable damage output.
So you're taking crits into account, and operate with a very high damage number.



Yes and yes. When firing a top-of-the-line end-game weapon with 100 Gun skill and perks and buffs at a very high level, yes, then 15DT is nothing. Exactly.


Yes, because most of the game time you're not lvl50 with all skills and top-notch equipment.
Your model puts 60-80% of weapons constantly into bleedthrough mode, if you consider that you for quite a time you neither run around with Med Sticks, nor 100 weapon skill, nor 100% gun condition, etc.
That model has to work for a low condition Cowboy Repeater at 25 Gun skill, too.
And you still didn't explain to me why the Tri-Beam was my go-to weapon in OWB whenever I got into trouble.
Why could i make short work of a 3000HP, 25DT opponent, when my weapon was supposed to be a pea shooter?

Glaub mir, Du hast Dich da irgendwie verrannt, macht aber nix. Gibt schlimmeres

Oh right sorry, durrr..

But yeah, then the effects are even MORE dramatic. His formula would still exceed 1000, mine would drop to jack by comparison.
Anyways, test it yourself. The formula I listed (or something close to it, since I forget where Damage resistance is placed) is the correct one, and I know this from testing myself.

I wonder when Gunny will get here...