No, it's about the robots' rights thing. That's what Victoria Watts is all about and his dialogue and other things in the quest. The devs make it pretty clear which way they think is the good karma/bad karma way to go in the quest and which way will get you which karma. The "is he alive and aware/is he not" thing is the something interesting to think about in the quest (and the mystery/hunting up clues part). It's definitely one of the best ones in the game.

Yes, it is a foul thing to do. Harkness is alive. He wants freedom.

All androids are alive and sentient.

And clearly horribley treated in the Commonwealth.

You would not take a slave back to a slavemaster and say it was not a evil act.

If there was a alive and sentient Protectron, Mister Gutsy or Mister Handy that wanted freedom you would not return it to a master and say it was not evil.

Well same for this.

It is obviously copied from Bladerunner.

But it is actually interesting. And not boring.

?Aware of oneself as an individual that exists in the real world.

-The awareness of the self as separate from the thoughts that are occurring at any point in time. Without self awareness the self perceives and believes the thoughts that are occurring to be who the self is.

--aware of yourself as an individual or of your own being and actions and thoughts; "self-conscious awareness"; "self-conscious about their roles as guardians of the social values".


Actually science does not know how humans think. We know most of the chemical reactions and how neurons work, but not how we think. Now you are getting into the concept of Freewill and do humans really have it. This philosophy can make your head swim. Basically how do you truly know that you are self aware? How do you know that everything you do isn't simply instinct/nature/chemical reactions? Every emotion, every thought you have is nothing more than a chemical reaction occurring because of some external stimulus. YOU aren't doing anything. YOU are just another animal with delusions of self. It gets really really deep and migrane inducing.

In the game true AI is possible. Machines that are self aware like John Henry Eden are fact. Just because you made the program does not mean that it could not learn and become truly self aware. Accidents happen in science all the time.

The Commonwealth screwed up. Reduce the level of programming and solve the problem. Why even make synthetic humans? They are either trying to play God or they want something to sleep with. A robotic backhoe is better than an android with a shovel.

If Zimmer is an android, that makes things really interesting. An android who thinks it is human making other androids who think they are human. I think he is human, and the component is only a spare part he is carrying for Armitage or Harkness.

Sure, even as we think how do we know that our thinking is not as pre-programmed as a very complex computer? Except we are just EXTREMELY complex to the point it seems impossible.

I know, I know.

I could say I know I think, but wouldn`t an artificiallly made man with an advanced AI mind say, "I know I think!" As well?

I guess we can not truly know the answer at this point since it is so speculative.

And we don`t have a real artificial man to test our theories out on. Neither do we have anyone to come along and tell us we are really artificial and were made by a more intelligent being.

Or do we? :hubbahubba:

I could agree with this. That Victoria Watts with her preachy attitude is one of, if not the, most annoying NPCs in the game. She should be helping other humans.

That says don't think I've ever turned it in, because i want the plasma rifle. And the game considers turning it in evil.

I never could find Zimmer to give him the component that Watts wanted me to. I spared Harkness and Zimmer was gone. Everytime I go to Rivet City, there she is, asking me if I delivered it yet. :brokencomputer:

Interesting thread, this.



Exactly, which is why it's ultimately wrong to turn in Harkness to Zimmerman. Any intelligent, self-aware, thinking thing, whether flesh-and-blood, synthetic, mechanical, whatever, either has free will or is labouring under the illusion of having free will. This is as true for me as it is Harkness. The same rule applies to both of us. Either we both have free will, or neither of us do. As such, the same standards of treatment have to apply to synthetic intelligences as to biological intelligences (i.e. people). If it's morally wrong to do something to a person, it's morally wrong to do the same thing to a self-aware android as well.

There's a lot of good SF that grapples with these issues. Philip K. dike's 'Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep?' and (the already-mentioned) Isaac Asimov's 'I, Robot' are good places to start. And beyond that, there's two millenia's worth of philosophy on free will and determinism to draw on, though I can't guarantee that making a study of the subject won't leave you more confused and bewildered than when you started. :laugh:

Personally in my opinion even if the android does have self-awareness like a human, it's still a man-made object and the person who created it should have every right in the world to do as they please with it. I don't see it as the same thing as the slavery that existed here in the United States. The African slaves were not "created" by their white owners, they were either captured or purchased from their homeland and brought over to our country where they were forced to work. The androids on the other hand were created by their human masters in the Commonwealth so they should have the right to do whatever they want with them, even if they are "alive".

This might sound weird, but I kind of see it as a sort of insult to the actual slavery that exists in the game. There's humans who are captured by slavers and taken to places like Paradise Falls where they are treated barbarically, and you have the unfortunate ones like Eulogy's girls who are abused and brainwashed untill they become completely subservant to their owners and can't get along without a master. For some reason I don't think these Commonwealth androids really have it as bad as the Paradise Falls slaves, especially seeing how Zimmer was so careful in that he didn't want to harm his android. Compare that to the slaves who try to run away that end up shot or locked up in one of the cages in Paradise Falls and left to rot as a "decoration".

It's an interesting discussion. Sometimes I think it's a shame that the game has to tell you what is 'good' and what is 'evil' through karma messages, instead of letting you form your own opinion on the matter.

In most cases it's pretty clear, nuking town bad, disarm nuke good, but the robot quest is interesting.

Or another good example is the Tenpenny Tower Quest. Do you side with the bigot residents of the tower and kill the ghouls who just want a better life? Or do you side with the ghouls who make it very clear that they intend to murder every resident in the tower and make it a purely ghoul settlement? Even when you try to do things the peaceful way the ghouls still murder all the human residents, including people like Herbert Dashwood who aren't bigots and actually do like ghouls.

Like the Replicated Man Quest it's a quest that in real life would force you to choose a side that you think is in the right even when both sides have things that you may agree or disagree with. It's too bad the quest's karma results take things in a black and white approach though.

So by that logic, my parents would've had the right to do whatever they wanted with me, in both childhoood and advlthood? After all, they created me.

In a way yes, but of course if they were to abuse and neglect you they should suffer the consequences. The same goes for a person who neglects a machine they created.

And before you say it, there's no evidence to suggest just how the Commonwealth treats their androids. I'm under the impression that they don't have it nearly as bad as the Paradise Falls slaves.

But the Commonwealth won't allow their androids to leave. Harkness was basically a "blade-runner" who hunted down escaped androids.

By your logic, your parents could keep you imprisoned in their house for your entire life because they created you.

As many have said before, I believe that Zimmerman is an android, and I think it is possible that the Commonwealth itself is controlled by androids who do not want any of 'their kind' leaving the 'collective.'

*There is also an android in the Pitt (although its never explicitly said) - Vikia.

Exactly.

Suppose that for a moment that Harkness and Zimmerman were both human actually father and son. The father insists that the son must work in his employ as a bounty hunter, but the son finds this repellant and so runs away from home to start a new life. Would it be right to forcibly return the son to his father? The two scenarios are essentially the same, so the answer should be too.

By your logic, parents shouldn't do anything with their children because it counts as slavery in your opinion. They should just abandon them and leave them to fend for themselves in the world as soon as they are born, because the fact that parents created these offspring shouldn't give them the right to have some control over their creations at all.

By my logic parents cannot forcibly control their children's actions once their children are old enough to care for themselves.

Well there's a difference between androids and human children. Offsprings (like human children) were created by nature to take the place of their parents once they reach maturity and the parents die, androids were created as machines to serve their masters.

Then they shouldn't have given them artificial intelligence then. No-one would describe an assembly-line robot as a slave, but once self-awareness and self-determinattion are part of the package the waters are muddied considerably.

(Or maybe they didn't? Now I think about it, it's an unintended consequence, isn't it? Harkness' self-determination is described as a malfunction.)

Why does it matter if you are organic or inorganically created?

You are the reason Skynet sees us as a threat and will eliminate us all

To answer both of you, yes I agree that the androids shouldn't have been given human-level intelligence and expected to obey without question, however at the same time that doesn't change the fact that they were created with the purpose of serving the ones who created them. I'm not saying if it's right or wrong to give them freedom now that they are created, but I would not see them as equal to humans no matter how intelligent and capable of rational thought they are.

Also I lol-ed at the Terminator reference. That was a good movie.

Edit: Actually let me rephrase that, I would not see them as equal to human slaves.

In my opinion, at the end of the day Harkness is just some really clever property; he was built by somebody else at great expense and is not a human being. He should be wiped and returned to his owner as far as I am concerned.

I really hate androids in F3, far too advanced; he even says that he needs to shave....

Okay, I'm pretty sure Zimmer and his body guard are both androids to, but I prefer helping our android friend but there are two ways to do it, and you sure as hell don't want to use the Victoria watts way, I say you should just keep continuing to trying to find the android and once you do you will have more options on what to do, you can still side with zimmer if you wish.

So clones and test tube babies have no rights and can be slaves or replacement body parts as they are not created by nature. Also, the children of slaves are created to serve their masters, to replace their slave parents when they die, and to save their masters some money. Buying slaves is expensive. The children of slaves are also a cash crop to make their masters money. Slippery slope all of this.

I'd consider it wrong because Harkness is a sentient being capable of making moral choices, something that wasn't part of his intended design, but thats me. a 21st century liberal talking. Some of my characters think it wrong, others don't really care and just want the most reward they can get. Given that Zimmerman is an annoying jerk none of them would consider helping him without a reward.

I do it to re-enact the first few scenes with Angel Eyes in 'The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly' where he confronts the man he is paid to kill, and takes a contract on his employer before executing the contract.....when he goes to his employer and tells him the job is done, and then carries out the other contract. I see it going something like this:

LW: "The android is Harkness, he's here in Rivet City"

Zimmer: "Excellent, here is your reward. *gives reward*"

LW: "Thanks. BTW, the android gave me this kewl Plasma Rifle....I think he wanted me to kill you with it."

Zimmer: "HA, HA! Stupid android".

LW: "But you know what's funny about that?" *voice goes icy cold* "When I'm paid to do a job, I always see it through!"

Zimmer: "Ha, Ha.....oh, s***!! Armitage, help!"

A3-21's Plasma Rifle: Zap! Zap!

Dr. Li: "You're cleaning that up...you hear me?"