I understand that Fire is technically a form of energy. But if I am building a character that's not proficient in energy weapons but is more of a Guns explosives guy then I have to divert skill points to a skill I don't really need. It really needs to be under explosives. Wasn't Flamers under Big Guns in Fallout three? I understand the reasoning behind getting rid of the Big Guns skill but put Flamers under the appropriate category

I totally agree whit you!, also there is a perk named "Pyromaniac" that increase the damage with fire-based weapons in a 50%, and that perk requires 60 skill points on explosives. It doesn′t make sense when you need to increse energy weapons skill to do more damage whit the flamer!

Escuse me because my bad english (I′m spanish lol)

Why?

Nothing about a Flamer qualifies it for the Explosives category.

Besdies Energy Weapons need the Short Range supression Flamethrower provides, and long range artillery the Incinerators provide.

Ditto.

Flamers are basically squirt guns. They operate the same way whether or not you light the pilot. :shrug:

They neither operate, nor damage via explosions, and training in timers, fuses, and the setting of explosive charges (and theory), have no bearing on flamethrowers (or safe use of them).

They are the only weapons that will selectively set a group of enemies on fire, and should really have their own skill if you want to use them effectively ~but the next best thing is how it was always done in this series (which is to have a [mostly] "Military" Big Guns skill opposite a [mostly] civilian Small guns skill).

**Personally (not saying it would fit the series), I would prefer an exotic weapons skill that specifies the weapon; Like Big Guns:Flamer; BigGuns:Minigun.

*** If I were in the mood to pick Exotic weapon skill "http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/Gizmojunk/kagemusha_Kusari-gama-.jpg" :bonk:, then stumbled across a bombed out HSN warehouse and found one; then my PC would be able to actually use it ~or if it got dropped, I could watch an attacker pick it up and have critical failures trying to use it against me.
-If only (also this design idea for skills would be mod friendly to add all sorts of custom melee weapons, or even guns.)

Why is it that people don't seem to understand, FIRE IS ENERGY, for all intents and purposes, it's energy being released by the fuel burning, there is nothing explosive about it!

I'd like them to be put under the annoying weapon that everyone has an opinion on but never really uses skill set.
It could be called Flamers for short.

However, we could always lump everything together, I'd like that.
However we could make every weapon a specific skill of its own, I'd like that.
However we could bring back big guns, I'd like that.
However we could just leave them as they are and use personal choice to decide how we play an open and easily adjustable game, I'd like that.
I'm really easy to please, and I do like that.

Agreed, but so is a gunpowder explosion (energy), but that doesn't class regular guns in explosives... though by the logic, it should.

Flamers don't operate dependent on flame, they squirt fuel. (there is not that tremendous a leap from flamers and squirting pesticides in one's garden)

A Gauss gun uses electromagnetic energy to project a metal bullet, but it otherwise behaves like any other rifle or shotgun (with slug).

Skill training should match the weapon. With a conventional rifle you don't have to worry about your shot ricocheting of a mirror or whether the target is wearing white or black clothing, but with training in laser rifles, conceivably you would. (Its moot in FO3 & NV, but still it smacks against common sense. :banghead: )

I'm not saying i'm correct so don't flamer me but as far as i no when the fuel is ignited it would expand and and explode to an extent giving off shrapnal in a fire form
and fire just doesn't fit the role of energy weapons so is the shiskabab a energy weapon i know it's classed as melle but it in logic should qualify.Or what if you use incendiary rounds on the anti material rifle.

Playing devil's advocate here:

1. What about a napalm bomb? Explosives? Napalm is just about the stuff flamethrowers use?

2. All area effect weapons, ie: even plasma (energy) mines and pulse (energy) mines, are in the Explosives Skill except one: Flamer.

3. In the military world, the same guys that knew how to plant C4 and arm/disarm mines were usually the same guys that used flamethrowers: Combat engineers.

Just wanted to bring a few points that other haven't.

-Gunny out.

Pyromaniac should require a 50 EW skill.

Problem solved :flamethrower:

"we blew them up with grenades, and burned them with flamethrowers" says the certain kid of a certain explosive enthusiastic tribe.

seeing as the experts on explosives themselfs use em, why not just make em explosives.

It's a tricky one, really. Although I agree with this:


I also think it do fit in Energy Weapons since heat is energy.

But yeah, I don't use flamers so I don't care now. I plan on doing it on another playthrough (I do one smoothtalking conventional guns character for House, an unarmed and melee character for Caesar, gonna do an energy weapon character for NCR and an explosives character for Yes Man.)
I'd say just make that Pyromaniac perk use the same skill which the flamers use.

Here's some more devil's advocate food for thought:

I'm sure that someone has said this already, but I'll repeat whoever that was: All 5 weapons skills use enegy. Mostly kinetic, some heat and a few other forms. Why are Energy Weapons named "Energy" weapons? Unless we're saying hurtful things and damaging Mojave denizen's self esteem, then all our attacks are "energy" attacks aren't they? So what does the energy really represent when we say "Energy" weapon. We all instantly know what each other means, but can we make a ratinoal definition of the term?

-Gunny looking for a dictionary.................

Plasma is squirting super hot stuff, with expansion upon impact; Telsa Cannon also does AOE damage, etc

There is just many argument (if not more) against Flamer(s) being Explosive skill; Pyromaniac is migrated from FO3, I wouldn't be surprise if it left untouched as development advances.

Yeah. I knew there'd be one I'd miss. I almost never use the thing. Being the Devil's Advocate can be grueling somethings, not to mention the difficult working conditions. I should call OSHA. Does Hades have a whistleblower policy?

-Gunny out.

unless the tanks on your back explode......

I've never heard of a flame thrower that actually lobs balls of fire like the incinerator.
Pyromaniac requiring a different skill then what flamers use was an intentional design choice. Just as slayer[unarmed], super slam[melee], ninja[melee], and piercing strike[unarmed] effect both forms of combat but require different skills. The reason is to make you think about how you apply your skills. If they made flamers explosives they'd just change the requirements of pyromanac to 50 energy.

Really 50 explosives is not a huge investment, using comprehension not only saves skill points through books it also means magazines give +20 letting you save points on science, lockpick, speech, or any other skill you only need to have at X to pass a handful of skill challenges. And if your really a mizer, you can use the exploit where you can pick the perk you want then hit back and redistribute the skill points and keep the perk selected.

As I have nothing but a minor general knowledge to draw from.

EW's are those that require a power source, circitry, non conventional and non solid projectiles.
They require minimal absorbtion of recoil if any, and are not prone ( or as prone ) to influences such as wind.
They also require containment chambers, housing of dangerous chemicals and electrical / magnetic discharges.

Guns ( you're more in the know here gunny ).
Are weapons that require solid projectiles forced out of a more simple tube due to compressed powder converting into a gas.
They require from simple packed and wadded balls forced out of a smooth bore;
To cartridges with a primer that causes a chain reaction when struck fired from a rifled barrel.

Explosives, from some howitzers needing each component ( Shell, wadding and primer ) loaded individually.
A planted and timed charge, a fire bomb or concusive blast to a simple pin pull and toss.
These require a mixture of skills, timing, discipline, chemistry, mechanics and general judgements in common sense.

So to me flamers could fit in explosives, but just as well in EW's if not more so.
They're a cross skill weapon at best, and instead of being swopped over should have greater perk selection to encourage blending.

It's the solid slug doing the damage for guns though isn't it, I agree that Gauss Rifle's should be Guns again. When they were made for O:A they didn't want to make a new ammo type for one gun and as more of a balance issue the Energy Weapons was really lacking a sniper rifle type weapon.

Really it was kinda stupid in FO2 how the gauss rifles worked. Bullets with batteries built in? that's just stupid, really really stupid. A gauss rifle runs on batteries and fires a chunk of metal, so it being an energy weapon makes perfect sense. If you hit a bullet with a hammer it could go off, if you hit a chunk of metal with a hammer you make a noise.

Flamers use heat energy to kill their victims,there is no explosion that harms the victims unless you get unlucky and your fuel tank explodes.

Incinerator pump a blob of burning fuel spread all over like a malakov cocktail...it is just AOE, not explosion.

Yeah I admit it was too, just a way to get around the fact that the gun would require ammo and power; any explaination is an explaination. If the projecticle is solid? It's a gun. If it's energy? The it's an energy weapon. That's the way I see it.

The gauss rifle is a magnetic accelerator that launches 2mm slugs (or flechettes rather, I guess) by using an energy source to do so.
There's no hammer that strikes a primer that ignites a powder charge to launch a bullet or pellets. That's why it's an energy weapon.

The flamer launches (squirts...) excited molecules that comes from a stored source of energy. That's why it's an energy weapon