But it's stated by Ashur himself, and Kodiak etc. That they passed through the Pitt on the way to D.C so shouldn't have had any t-45d yet?

Because a suit T-51b was the super-cool reward at the end of Operation Anchorage, "Canon be dammed; quest rewards are what matters!"

Quick question...why were there T-45d's in New Vegas?

Methinks Bethesda is not the only ones who contradict their canon...

In any case I don't think that Obsidian or Bethesda did any contradiction in regards to the T-45d's, as its clear they were also on the West Coast as well (New Vegas). It was always my assumption that the Lyon's expedition were equiped with them from the start, notice how in the description of their finding of the Pentagon it doesn't say that they found the only source of T-45d's or that they had never seen them before. It says they found enough to keep them going for a long time, meaning they had spares to both repair their existing ones and give new recruits their own.

As to the reports of Super Mutants, word spreads, people who were migrating East-West (evidently this type of travel is not as impossible as it would appear) must have spread stories of the Super Mutants, and if you had never heard of a Super Mutant before, that is a story I doubt you would have forgotten. Another possiblity is the Midwestern Brotherhood. (or do they not exist now in "canon"?) They are positioned closer to the East Coast than the Western Brotherhood and word could have much more easily reached them, and the information could have been relayed to the West Coast (the two sections are in schism but if a new Super Mutant threat was looming, I doubt they would have witheld that information from the people who had faced such a threat before).

Finally, in regards to the getting in or out of Vault 87, it is arguable at least that the Vaults in-game are only representative of the true size and scope of them. Simply put, there must be other entrances, prehaps one in which only the super mutants know of which avoids the radiation and allows them to bring in their captives (prehaps near where the vats of FEV are located). The Enclave might have simply walked in the front door (clearly they have advanced anti-radiation chemicals a-la Autumn) so it is not out of the question to assume this is what they used to get in.

I agree though, the story behind Little Lamplight was a bit sketchy and is kinda stupid (which is why I generally ignore it or kill all the little brats)

Having T-45b armour in New Vegas could have been an attempt to fix that plot hole in FO3 but still not one suit of T-51b?

MWBoS are canon they are talked about in FO3. Still MWBoS and Western BoS don't seem to be talking. If they are then why would the Western BoS send troop 2000 plus miles East when they would have just sent the MWBoS. Second both Western and MWBoS know of super mutants. They fought the Masters armies. So reports of small numbers of stupid mutants only hanging around DC with no real sign of learders would not be worth their time. Western BoS numbers dwindling so even more reason not to go. Also MWBoS would want that tech in DC and they are growing in numbers and alot closer. So it should have been them in FO3 not Western BoS.

I think the westerners were desperate in looking for tech to prepare for war with NCR. So they sent expeditions everywhere to look for tech.
P.S. about the MWBOS there is no cannon evidence to support this theory but i think the enclave wiped them out considering that the Enclave have an outpost in Chicago which is the HQ of MWBOS.

I will concede with you here that its true that it seems unlikely that not one suit of T-51bs were taken with the Lyon's expedition. However, I don't think one can just explain away their (meaning the T-45s) existence in New Vegas as "fixing a plot hole" because really I dont see one. Clearly they were on the West Coast before-hand, and Lyon's expedition used them so while yes the lack of T-51bs is a bit sketchy, that doesn't mean that its ol' Bethesda "messing with canon" again. Prehaps one explanation is that the T-51bs are fairly rare (prehaps they are running out), and the Western Elders were hesitant to give out that kind of equipment to people traveling so far and who they may never see again. So the older and prehaps more plentiful T-45ds were a better option.



I really wasn't questioning if they were canon or not i was being sarcastic (and I apologize for that). Im also not saying this is how the information for sure got to the Western Elders, but Im saying its one possibility. Also im a bit confused with some of your statements, you say they are not talking but also suggest that the Western Brotherhood could have ordered the Midwest to go to DC? What Im suggesting is not that they were buddy-buddy but that they simply said "hey guys might be some super mutants in DC." Second, I wouldn't describe the thousands of mutants crawling over the Capital Wasteland as a "small number of stupid mutants," and the Brotherhood would have taken such reports seriously, since the rise of the Master was still fresh in their minds. Also I doubt that the Midwest would have done anything in regards to going there themselves, F3 states they are in decline, they have their own problems to deal with.



one can only hope....

*begins humming The Battle Hymn of the Republic*

I'll agree that Lyons not having at least one suit of T-51b Pa is not plot hole just something overlooked.

From my understanding MWBoS and Western BoS don't talk to one another but if they do then why would the Western BoS send Lyons and not MWBoS? Why would the MWBoS just not go themselves? Also no the MWBoS are not going down in numbers. MWBoS were sent East because they want to let in outsiders. Western BoS wanted to get ride of them. MWBoS let in outsiders but they still have that kill anyone that gets in are way attitude (they have deathcamps).

I say small in numbers because the master had Armies of mutants and they were smart and had a leader the Master. East mutants don't seem to me anywhere close to thousands and they don't have leaders and they stay in DC. Not much of a threat to people 2000 plus miles away.

Also its more likely the MWBoS took out the Enclave in Chicago not the other way around. Plus it was just an Enclave outpost.

Alright we'll call it square then :thumbsup:



Again, I think that if the two Brotherhoods are talking, that doesn't mean that they are good friends, so while they may have simply (prehaps grudingly) informed the Western Elders of the reports, it doesn't mean that the West would have been able to order them to DC. Also im not stating that the MWBos are becoming extinct, im just saying that Fallout 3 says they are in decline and prehaps they simply didn't care about going to DC when they want to consolidate (or prehaps save) their strength in the Midwest.



Right but the Brotherhood wouldn't have known that if they hadn't gone right? No prehaps they are not as well organized as their Master-created kin but they are still a threat, and one that needs to be dealt with. For all the Brotherhood knew, a second "Master" was arising in DC and they wanted to end it before it was too late.



I reject your reality and substitute my own! :tongue:

the enclave are goverment and have the blue prints to the vaults looked at it and went hey look a another way in without dang kids and rads and the supermutants probaly bring ppeople in therough a unradiated and non kid enterance/exit like i said about the enclave

and another way for the enclave got in was cutting a hole in the roof

but these are just theoryies

Good ones none the less

But the question of the day are:

Why does the Vault have entrances into surrounding caves?

Alternate escape routes maybe? In case a bomb say..disables the door?

In any case it really doesn't matter, I think that we're all thinking about this too hard. They get in, they get out, its a game. Simple as that. :goodjob:

Plus the Enclave is cool enough that they can make a freaking entrance if they want... :toughninja: Tis how we roll

Heck the way might open just by Colonel Autumn commanding it to....

"I am Colonel Augustus Autumn!"

Oh God! Half of it was explained in the game, other quarter was clearly explained in the wiki and not clearly explained in the game and the last quarter was for the use of imagination. Beths stayted the last thing in one of the interviews.
1) And ofcourse not all in brotherhood would wear elite t-51b power armor. They didnt use T-51b for the brotherhood because it was meant to be unique armor in the game. Was that so hard to figure out?
2)As for the legion, the legion wasnt complete canon and it was for obsidian to sort out.
3)Not all caverns were available in the game, because it is a game.jst like the vaults arent that small.

So why did they send Lyons all the way to DC when they are low in people, going to war against NCR and MWBoS are already out there? How did they learn of Tech out in DC that might not even be out there? If they did know that a giant Robot was there and that was there mission, why did the Outscast break off?

My point is FO3 has holes and New Vegas adds more holes to FO3s story and yet its not Obsidians fault because Beth was the Overseer for New Vegas.

I see little reason for BoS even being sent to DC which makes most of FO3 really hard to believe now.

I think we discussed why the MWBoS would not have obeyed the Western Elders and why they themselves would not have gone. As for the reports of Tech, it was a fairly safe bet that the Capital of the Pre-War United States was going to have some serious tech contained within it (its not as if the Pentagon was a rumour) and it seems natural to me if you are a tech-hording religious order, you would want to investigate that. As to why they would send a contingent to DC with war with the NCR looming, prehaps they felt that they could find something to give them an edge? It really doesn't actually have to make much sense if you think about it, many commanders and generals have made mistakes before in pursuing a campaign (sending the Lyon's company east might have been the "Invasion of Russia" to the Brotherhoods Napoleon).

I dont really see how New Vegas adds more holes....sure it explains that the Mojave chapter is in decline but....what else? Im not trying to be argumentative here I simply want to know where you feel the holes have been "dug" so to speak?

Really no matter how you look at it, Lyon's went to the East, there is an East Coast Brotherhood now, and there's no going back. Its part of canon now and it always will be, so no matter how much we debate, nothing is going to change the fact that what has happened in the story has happened. Fallout 3 makes about as much sense as any other game that I've come across and I see no reason that it should not be loved as a good Fallout game (same goes for New Vegas and the originals).

Edit: In regards to the Outcasts, they didn't leave.....they stayed to gather tech.....

They probably went knowing there had to be tech or ways to find tech at the Pentagon after all it is the Pentagon. The BoS dose hunt down tech after all.

I could be wrong but I believe they knew about liberty prime as well.

Well thinking logically. Your numbers going down. War with a large power (NCR) is looming. DC is 2000 plus miles away. DC being the Capital would be hit very badly any tech there might not still be there. Which it should not be. West-Tek is now the Glow and yet The Pentagon and most of DC is some what intact? (yet so many people say DC was hit worce because it was the capital) So sending people out there makes little sense. If it was worth sending people and they knew of super mutants why just send a small group? Why did they not stop at any other locations? I find it had to believe nothing else of value is between Lost hills bunker and DC. Why not send Lyons to aid the Nevada detachment?

I don't agree about why the MWBoS did not go or get involved. I don't recall anything in FO3 about their numbers being small. They let in outsiders and they have been there for 40 years. They absorbed the calculators army, they even let in super mutants and ghouls.

I am not saying FO3 is not canon but alot of it makes no sense, very little. I am pretty much being told to "just go along with it" "have faith." Thats why I like Obisidian because they think about "why are they there." Bethesda just wanted BoS and stuck them there. No real consideration for logic. Then they give an ok to New Vegas which adds more hole, IMO.

Alright, first like I said, prehaps it wasnt a logical decision, but it still doesn't change the fact that it happened. Im also not going on blind faith here, in my previous post I offered some explanations as to why they might have gone, one of them being that prehaps they just were not thinking....Mind you I'll admit thats not the best reasoning but the reasons why they sent a mission east when they were facing war on their doorstep could be the same reason Hitler opened a second front in Russia or why Napoleon did the same, ie. to us it might not make sense, but to them it did. Some more theories that don't involve "Brotherhood leaders not being rational" could be:

-the pentagon is a great place to scavenge and would be an excellent place to find more secret locations of stashed tech or research facilities elsewhere in the U.S.

-The brotherhood leaders were actually being quite forward thinking in knowing that the war with NCR would not go well for them and they wanted to find an edge

-Prehaps they just wanted to get rid of Lyon's and some of his goody-goody followers (like what they did with the Midwest) and if they found some good stuff in DC then more props to them.

Now again in regards to the MWBoS straight from the wiki....."Rothchild makes a mention to the Midwestern Brotherhood of Steel, saying that they have fallen on hard times."
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Scribe_Rothchild#Notes

-No it does not state specifically that they are falling in numbers, but what exactly do you think "hard times" means? If Rothchild thinks they're in trouble but doesn't mention that the West is (aka the war with NCR), we can only assume that the MWBoS are in some serious trouble.

In regards to Obsidian magically making everything make sense....ummm I dont understand why ghouls have the ability (or expertise, and no that one scientist does not count) to fly in crappy rockets to the moon? Why does a small amount of fuel contained in toys equal enough rocket fuel to blast them off...How are the Boomers able to get a 200 year old plane from the bottom of the lake to fly like new? How in the name of jeebus was Mr. House able to destroy 77 warheads? (i see no evidence of advanced anti-air weapons on the Lucky 38)


are you saying they shoudn't have?


look all im saying here is that New Vegas and Fallout 3 are both good games and they both make sense and they both need to be considered part of canon.

Thanks for the MWBoS Rothchild notes. Makes sense something is going on there hopefully we will learn one day.

Sending them just because they want to send them is not logical but like you said maybe they were not thinking logically. Still a problem I have is Why is DC in such good shape if it was hit worce like so make people say? Why is it not like the "Glow."?
Other problem is how did a small group even make it all the way there?

The things that make little sense in New Vegas are not as bad as how people got to DC and Why DC is still there. Maybe I am just being picky and I am not saying FO3 is not canon it is I agree its canon I just wish I better understood it. Little things like Ghouls and rockets don't bug me but how a small group made it to DC a place that should be a glow 100 times over only to stay because they find a ginat robot. Half break way but seem to do nothing about it. Would have been nice to see outcast and BoS fighting. A quest to get them back together something.

I guess I just have to go on faith and stop being so picky. Maybe FO4 will fill in some gaps. :huh: I am thankful for New Vegas I love it lot more then FO3 but to me there are questions that need answers and the more I think about it the worce FO3 becomes for me.

this is why im hoping for a Midwest setting for Fallout 4, I really want to know whats become of the Brotherhood there....i really like the idea of the Midwest brotherhood, and it would make for a really interesting plot (heck maybe they could just redo the Tactics storyline and make it more in-line with canon).



In regards to why the glow looks so bad but other locations dont well...I guess all I can say is that its a game :shrug: and theres many instances in all the games where if a location was hit the area around it should be more demolished. Personally I never really understood the Glow... I mean if that was a nuke that penatrated into the bunker, why was the inside not totally blown to hell? Which makes me think it was some sort of special bunker-buster missile or something and not a straight nuke.



Again I really dont know, but no-one said it was easy. I think prehaps the games have hinted that cross-country travel is not as horrible as we might think. enclave did it, Lyon's brotherhood did it, midwest did it (ok kinda with the help of blimps)



See im the opposite, those little instances of "not making sense" in New Vegas really bugged me when playing the game (I remember thinking when I first played the ghoul quest when they lifted off "are they freaking serious?"). But I suppose the lesson to be learned here is that all the games have their "oddities" and we just need to accept them and move on, they're part of story. :foodndrink:

Styles, you're a pretty cool guy, and I understand your sentiment, however we just have to bally well lump it, I mean hell, this is a universe with giant cockroaches and ghouls, a thing like an mass movement of people from one place to another should not be THAT too much to swallow.

[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_3qeljK210Ik/TJToXzZWTeI/AAAAAAAAAhs/W0eCy_z4EQQ/s1600/ODDBALL_SAYS.jpg[/img]

I would like FO4 to deal with the MWBoS as well. It would be nice to learn of them. Since I first played Tactics close to 10 years ago, I have been wondering what has become of them. News of hard times just make me want to know more. I hope they don't redo the story behind Tactic but finally settle what the "High-Level events are."

Yep every fallout game has inconsistencies some more then others something we have to live with as Fallout Fans and apart of being a fallout fan is thinking of ways to smooth out those inconsistencies and talk about it like we are doing now :foodndrink:

Alright its settled! Fallout 4 will be in the Midwest! (im making and executive decision :grad: ) Whos up for fighting raiders around the St. Louis arch? :gun: (man I would love to see ol' STL in a 3'd representation like what is done with DC, it would be sweet to be walking down the street and say "hey I killed a feral ghoul over there yesterday! :celebration: ")

Doesn't have to be a rehash of the tactics stoyline because I agree that game was pretty good in its own right, but something involving its plot could be worked in im guessing.

:D The best ending that they could use for it would be the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2ZcpcO7C58. It fits with the BoS hating Mutants, they just used them. Its still a good ending the BoS win and there is moral grey area. Maybe those hard times talked about in FO3 is the MWBoS lossing are nasty guerrilla war against the "Mutant Liberation Army." The MLA could have got a new ally against the BoS and now turned the tide. Its not just mutant and ghouls in the MLA but humans and even BoS.

I would be so happy if they went with the four faction rep system for this...

Barnaky/Caculator's BoS/robot army
NCR
East coast BoS
Enclave