Styles, i think youre either played the game like a shooter with little exploration of surrounding or you dont use simple logic. Words on Wiki and Interviews sometimes can be wrong but with little logic everything starts to make sense while New Vegas has its own plot holes not connecting to Fallout 3.

Can you explain that please? because playing Fallout like a shooter isnt something that Styles does, and i found very his logic comprehensible

I am not saying that F3 is the best game and everyone should love and dont ask questions. I didnt like the fact it had so much hooter elements but the questions he asked were (for me atleast) answered in the game. Thats all

I think the reason Lyons didn't get T-51b suits is the same reason he was sent to D.C. in the first place, the reason being that he wasn't very well liked by the Western elders even before his deployment and was stirring up too much trouble with his contradictory ideals. So to get rid of him and his rosy ideas of saving the world they kicked him out with crappy equipment and told him to make a suicide trek across the country - whether he made it or not they'd be glad he was gone, and if he does make they'll get the Pentagon, either way they win (they just weren't counting on Lyons turning the goody-good up to 11).

And the T-45d suits were maybe something the Brotherhood always had some of, but because they svck only 'expedition forces' (like the Capital Wasteland and Mojave Chapters) and not the main soldiers would get assigned them.

EDIT: Actually looking at the Vault page, T-45ds give +2 ST, T-51 (New Vegas) only gives 1. If T-45d is better for strength then it would be preferable to soldiers that will traveling to East Jesus Nowhere to be able to carry more with them, even at the cost of protection.

It gives better ST but not better protection from damage. I would want the suit that can save my life over something that can help me carry a little more weight.

I agree that is a possible reason why they sent Lyons out there, hoping he would not make it like they did with the MWBoS. Still once he got there and reported he found a giant robot why would they not want him back or even try help in some way? War with NCR looming, numbers dwindling a Giant nuke throughing robot would be helpful. Why did the Outcast not try to take it back by force or just move on to another area to find tech?

How ould they take a giant robot across the country it would have taken him years not months and there it would work so that would have been a very stupid thing to do, a very big waste of time and resources.

How did they get all their weapons, ammo, food and other supplies to DC? Brahmin I am guessing. They could have scrapped it. Take the most vital components and blue prints, computer data and left the rest. At least take the info and its weapons systems. I am not complaining that they got it to work I am complaining that we never learned how, there should have been a quest or something. I am going on they jury rigged it with scrap metal and flash bulbs. So stands to reason they come across this big robot, it does not work. BoS back home need this tech and is a possible reason why Lyons was sent to DC (regardless if the Elders thought he would make it or not). They could have looted everything, the Power Armour, the Robots and other tech, then head back. Lyons says hell with it I am staying! then he really was a traitor. The Western BoS would have sent more to get is ass back and they could have helped the Outcast. The very least the outcast would have been more justified to go to war against Lyons which means we should have seen them fighting one another.

Also, it's probably best leaving the giant robot where you found it, to make sure you don't disturb any mechanisms removing it then taking it west, as it wasn't fully completed. (would you remove something very fragile from it's housing just cos it 'might work' when you take it across a continent?)

I would not sit there for many years trying to get it to work knowing that the Main BoS is threated with extinction. I would look it over and see what I can take. The Giant weapons systems, Lazer eyes, nuclear weapons and what ever else it has. I would take anything I would see as salvageable. I would take all the PA and the data recovered and get back to California. If I was the Western BoS I would do what I could to talk Lyons into coming back. Him saying No to going back makes him a real traitor and the Outcast should have done something to take control of the expedition.

With the WBOS cutting off communication, the CWBOS might not know how badly the war's going back for them back east, and do we know how they communicate between the two sides of the US, because the WBOS 'cutting them off' might pose a lot of problems for them if they want to re-establish communications

The theory I am going with is. West Coast BoS need an Edge to fight the looming war with NCR. Some how they learned of tech that might give them that edge in DC. It was considered a suicide mission because its over 2000 plus miles away, so they sent someone that they did not care to much about so they sent Lyons and a small group of BoS. Some how without T-51b power armour they made it maybe they had T-45b armour but FO3 said they got the armour in DC.

Lyons mission

First, to scour the ruins of Washington D.C., once the nation's capital, and recover any and all advanced technology. Second, to investigate the reports of super mutant activity in the area. Third, to reestablish contact with the Midwestern Brotherhood of Steel and return them under Lost Hills command (the Midwestern Brotherhood of Steel's main airship crashed near Chicago during a large storm, and all communication was lost with the Lost Hills bunker).

Like the Topic how did they learn of the Super Mutants, How did they Learn of the Tech in DC. Possible they learned of mutants by merchant travel talking about another type of Super Mutant. Its possible they learned of Tech from computers back west.

Why would they risk going? The theory makes some sense. This thread is not to bash FO3 its to help me make sense of it. People have been helpful.

I have now come to see Lyons as a true traitor and the outcast as losers that are only talk. They should have been trying to take control from Lyons.

Yeah, fair enough
With the armour though, I reckon try went with T-51b but it'll be locked away somewhere in the Citadel as it's either a) completely broken due to travelling so far or B) too valuable to use as they have so little of them in the east, and don't want to lose/destroy them, just in case

I think though that the outcasts should have been expanded on, and actually give you sensible quests. But the outcasts attacking Lyons would probably dissobry the codex more than lyons did, and make them look like traitors for 'attacking their brothers' by Lost Hills

Lyons isnt a traitor. He is an elder of Brotherhood of Steel and as a soldier(well in past mostly but still) he was ordered to scour for tech. When they fond Liberty Prime greedy west wanted more so they ordered him to stay further. This is all in theory because we never seen it. So he stayed. And when he went native and communications were cut. When the brotherhood started really suffering Lyons didnt know about. So he stayed where he was. And outcasts are real losers, they are complete nothing. They have small numbers and they are scared of attacking Lyons knowing they will die. As why Casdin didnt tried to take over Liberty Prime before is may be out of repsect to his old friend.

Is it so hard to believe a few travelers from the east coast went west and brought tales of super mutants or the tales simply traveled by word of mouth on there own. Its real easy over the course of twenty ears the tales of Super Mutants on the east coast reach the Elders ears so they add it to the list of things for Lyon's to investigate.


You know what, tactics is non-canon. Except for major events, for simplicity I'll use the vaults list for its numerous problems. And you can't assume a game with multiple endings has the one you like.

It is such an unreliable game is it any wonder it was disowned from Lore.

Scribe Jameson at Citadel states that there is a small, rogue detachment of Brotherhood of Steel in Chicago, sorry the ending you liked didn't happen the calculator must have melted down. You can't assume the ending you liked happen when there are worse endings that let things fit better.


And as I say in the other thread we don't know the exact date the war between the NCR and the BoS started as much of those details are in an unpublished game. The fact the war even occurred only became canon with New Vegas. So maybe the canon start date isn't what was put into Van Buran but a decade or more later. After Lyons had already left say 2256.

Those "problems" are not canon breaking problems they are just things Beth does not like, mostly its how the looks. There is nothing wrong with Fallout Tactics. Fallout fans went against Tactics when Van Buren was being made, they saw what Van Buren aka FO3 was going to be.Locations in VB that were also in Tactics were to be very different so the fans turnd on Tactics. Van Buren was not made so Tactics can't go against it. Every Fallout has inconsistencies and Tactics is no different and I like said they are not canon breaking inconsistencies.

As for canon ending, fallout goes with the good ending so the BoS take over the calculator and they let mutations join. The ending I like can also be a good ending for all but mutations. It would be a story of betrayal and a struggle mutant rights. Mutations were let into the BoS and treated like brothers. They helped the MWBoS win the war against the calculator and in the end they get sent to work/deathcamps. It would be the first time we would see a ghoul/super mutant faction along with humans fighting together for their own lands/and right to live. If they make it into another Fallout Tactics game it could be the first in which we can play as a mutation.

Anyways debating Tactics is not what this thread is about.

Your trying to establish the reasoning for the Lyons being sent to DC and brought up the MWBoS. You said you don't believe why they wouldn't be involved. You opened the door don't complain when i walk in. I'm simply stating that the game was largely disowned by the original creators of Fallout so its not trust worthy. That part aside

You have no basis to support that it follows the good ending. Fallout 1 and 2 require going with the good ending as the alternative is the end of the world. Fallout appears to go with the "Good karma" hero. The statue in Fallout 2 shows the hero of the original was good karma.
And the fact Marcus mentions traveling with the Chosen One in NV and calls him friend implies good karma there to. So Fallout goes with good karma not necessarily the best ending, Which means we can only say the Warrior in Tactics was a good person. As its stated there number is small and they never reestablished contact with Lost Hills the canon ending must be the Calculator is gone as its the one that fits best.

Now back to other subjects why was Elder Lyon's sent out east?

Because the BoS knew there would be rich and untapped caches of technology there. And some travelers from the east brought tales of super mutants, hence the second reason for going. Say someone from DC goes to Pittsburgh with tales of super mutants, someone from Pittsburgh brings the story to Indianapolis, then to St. Louis with another merchant and then onto Kansas City, then to Denver and Salt Lake City and so on. The reports are from travelers. Lastly they still had no contact with the Chicago detachment[once again implying the calculator melted ending].

The war between the NCR and the BoS is first mentioned in Van Buren[which was never published]. We didn't know the war was canon until Fallout New Vegas. Most importantly we don't know when the war started simply that it was after 2242[when FO2 occurs]. It could have been 2257 or 2265. Well after Lyons was gone and to late to call him back. Especially if the vehicles they used to cross the country no longer worked. As the war isn't mentioned in Fallout 3 we should assume it didn't begin until after they lost contact with the west coast.

We don't know the whole details of the journey they may have taken airships and simply abandoned them when they no longer functioned at some point along the way. The loss of contact with the Chicago detachment could also explain the armor. The Elders didn't want to risk losing that valuable armor so they sent them with only T-45b's hoping they'd get better armor in DC[and they didn't] Ashur for instance is back in Pittsburg and has his old T-45b suit implying those were sent with Lyons. *The real reason is story purpose, Bethesda wanted to make the iconic power armor special to honor the series*

Because Bethesda wanted a faction called the Brotherhood of Steel with power armor in Washington D.C. There's no cogent reason for them to be there.



How would they know that? Third-hand reports from travelers which are pure conjecture anyway? Cross country travel isn't supposed to be a trivial thing in the Fallout universe. In Fallout 2 Cassidy, who was a pretty experienced and well traveled guy didn't know if Texas survived the war or not. Yet all of a sudden the BOS is getting specific information about the state of the East Coast? Pretty unlikely. It's even more unlikely that they would launch such an expedition on the word of a random traveler. How do they know he isn't lying? How do they know the guy he supposedly talked to wasn't lying or exaggerating or drunk or crazy or something? Repeat for the next guy or however many travelers this rumor went through before reaching California.

Also again this is a misinterpretation of the BOS and their mission. The BOS mainly strive to preserve the technology they possess. They don't go scrounging the wastes looking for new technology heedless of risk. It makes no sense for them to send an expedition all the way to East Coast when we have seen them ignore major sources of technology much closer to home and much less hazardous to explore such as the Glow.



This implies lines of communications stretching across the country that we have zero reason to believe exist until Fallout 3 when not one, but two factions (and an iconic character) up and make a cross-country journey. It's extremely improbable stuff just to cover Bethesda's shoddy explanations for why all these factions are suddenly on the East Coast when the Midwest was about the extent of anyone's knowledge (and that was mostly limited to it being a radioactive dustbowl). It doesn't make sense. Furthermore even if the BOS heard about super mutants in D.C. the same nonsensical way they heard about advanced tech, why on earth would they care? The BOS has no interest in retrieving FEV. There's no reason for them to care in the least about some super mutants being produced on the other side of the country.

The Brotherhood expedition to D.C. does not make any sense.