[donuts][RELz/BETA/WIPz] FO3Edit : Fallout 3

» Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:30 am

This is kinda my concern about the tool in general -- it would be good if it came with a big fat disclaimer 'DO NOT USE THIS FEATURE UNLESS YOU INTEND TO GO OVER THE RESULTS. IF YOU ARE LAZY, THIS IS NOT FOR YOU'.*

Well, sans the CAPS that's pretty much what I've been saying in the release notes, no? And the current versions are tagged as EXPERIMENTAL. And I've not set them to be the primary file on FO3Nexus.

Overring entries merged won't produce any errors and won't, unless it's a serious conflict, show up quickly or easily in someone's game -- but then down the track there will be problems, quests breaking or games not saving, or they'll post bugs that are impossible to track down because they've gone and merged nine mods and produced a bastard mutanted son of Frankenstein .esp that screws up all nine. Or something.

I should clarify: I am incredibly enthusastic for the tool, but only in the hands of modders and not users who don't know what they're doing (and who might prefer not to break their game if they were aware they could do so).

Well, take a step back here.

What this merge function is doing is nothing more and nothing less then what Wrye Bash is doing for TES4 for years now. The functionality is specifically NOT aimed at modders making pre-generated patches and distributing them. The whole point of such a list merger is to generate merged lists that are custom build for a specific load order.

It's very unlikely that the generated patch is going to be any worse then using the originally conflicting mods without the patch would be.

Having said all that, I can only repeat what I've expressed in the 2 last release notes already.

The whole purpose of these EXPERIMENTAL releases right now is to get feedback on the quality of the output produced by the used merge algorithm.

And to make it also quite clear in case my earlier post has been overlooked:

I'm quite disappointed by the extreme rarity of getting any such feedback at all.

» Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:51 pm

Well, sans the CAPS that's pretty much what I've been saying in the release notes, no? And the current versions are tagged as EXPERIMENTAL. And I've not set them to be the primary file on FO3Nexus.

Haven't read the release notes, haven't downloaded it yet

RL is taking away from modding time.

What this merge function is doing is nothing more and nothing less then what Wrye Bash is doing for TES4 for years now. The functionality is specifically NOT aimed at modders making pre-generated patches and distributing them. The whole point of such a list merger is to generate merged lists that are custom build for a specific load order.

That's true, thought I thought the primary use would be for merging lists that would otherwise overwrite eachother, but other entries (which usally override safely) be untouched. See above though, I've only been following the discussions and haven't used this (or ScripterRon's) tools yet. I was -- preemtively -- just voicing my concerns

I'm quite disappointed by the extreme rarity of getting any such feedback at all.

When I get some time I'll play with. First going to try and get Beta 5 of MMM out the door this weekend.

» Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:14 pm

That's true, thought I thought the primary use would be for merging lists that would otherwise overwrite eachother, but other entries (which usally override safely) be untouched. See above though, I've only been following the discussions and haven't used this (or ScripterRon's) tools yet. I was -- preemtively -- just voicing my concerns

The intended final use of this is the same as the Bashed Patch in Wrye Bash. A function that everyone can and should run.

Right now it processes the following lists:

	CheckGroup(GroupBySignature['LVLI'], 'Leveled List Entries');	CheckGroup(GroupBySignature['LVLC'], 'Leveled List Entries');	CheckGroup(GroupBySignature['LVLN'], 'Leveled List Entries');	CheckGroup(GroupBySignature['LVSP'], 'Leveled List Entries');	CheckGroup(GroupBySignature['CREA'], 'Items');	CheckGroup(GroupBySignature['CREA'], 'Factions');	CheckGroup(GroupBySignature['CREA'], 'Actor Effects');	CheckGroup(GroupBySignature['NPC_'], 'Items');	CheckGroup(GroupBySignature['NPC_'], 'Factions');	CheckGroup(GroupBySignature['NPC_'], 'Actor Effects');	CheckGroup(GroupBySignature['CONT'], 'Items');	CheckGroup(GroupBySignature['FACT'], 'Relations');	CheckGroup(GroupBySignature['RACE'], 'Hairs');	CheckGroup(GroupBySignature['RACE'], 'Eyes');	CheckGroup(GroupBySignature['FLST'], 'FormIDs', True);

Right now it does the full processing for all modules, but if people would actually start to give me feedback about the results of that approach I would probably add an approach similar to BASH tags where specific files have to specifically opt in to be merged, specifically in relation to NPC/CREA items and actor effects I thing that might be necessary, but I haven't seen a need yet for that in my own tests.

When I get some time I'll play with. First going to try and get Beta 5 of MMM out the door this weekend.

That wasn't directed at you. I was aiming for the over 100 downloads that 2.2.5 and 2.2.6 have gotten together by now.

» Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:34 pm

I wouldn't expect any crashes.

What I need you and everyone else who is trying this to do is to LOOK at every single one of these generated merged records and THINK about what the implications of this particular merged versions are and then REPORT anything you see where you think the merge process produced a result that is not true to the INTENTION of the original mods which have been merged.

Finding any design issues in the merging algorithm is not something that can be automated or that's going to show up in a 5 minute play test. It requires the combination of a (preferable 2) Mark I eyeball on target and a Mark I brain.

Not expecting them doesn't mean they don't/can't happen. So it's always good to know that they're not happening eh?

Oh I plan to, it's that whole needing more time in my life thing. I plan on doing a very _Very_ hard look at each entry, comparing to the originals, AND actually play testing them.

Sometimes something looks good... until execution, then... epic fail.

I'm grabbing 2.2.6 right now and I'll repeat my merging from before.

Mynex

» Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:42 pm

Built my patch with 2.2.6, i dont run a whole lotta mods, but, I have several that modify the same lists......

I am running 1.4 version of the game, with FOSE. Also have the pitt, and O:A installed. Game runs perfectly stable, no crashes in several hours of play, no other problems that i noticed either, by all appearances, the list merger is working as advertised, i have encountered raiders, supermutants, and even Enclave with weapons from a couple different installed mods. So far, I have experienced nothing but happy playing, with all of my mods cooperating.

Thank You very much.

If there is specific info you would like, feel free to ask.

» Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:14 am

If there is specific info you would like, feel free to ask.

It basically comes down to looking at all the generated records in the patch using FO3Edit, thinking deeply about what you see and deciding if the result of the merge preserves the intention of the individual mods. If you think that's not the case, I would like a screenshot and an explaination of why you think that the merged result is not as it should be.

» Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:44 pm

It basically comes down to looking at all the generated records in the patch using FO3Edit, thinking deeply about what you see and deciding if the result of the merge preserves the intention of the individual mods. If you think that's not the case, I would like a screenshot and an explaination of why you think that the merged result is not as it should be.

I did indeed have a look, as curiosity got the better of me, (and i had the tool to look........) and it appears to me that the utility is doing EXACTLY what it should. I can't find any discrepancies in how it is currently building the lists.

Later today, I will add some more mods that alter some of the same lists, and run the merge again, and see what it comes up with. Won't have results until probably afternoon, Eastern time..... (US) but, if it helps ya, be happy to do so.

Any suggestions for good mods that add additional weapons?

» Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:23 pm

Later today, I will add some more mods that alter some of the same lists, and run the merge again, and see what it comes up with. Won't have results until probably afternoon, Eastern time..... (US) but, if it helps ya, be happy to do so.

Any feedback, positive or negative, is very appreciated.

Any suggestions for good mods that add additional weapons?

Not really. I've yet to actually PLAY beyond the vault exit, you know?

» Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:07 am

Any feedback, positive or negative, is very appreciated.

Not really. I've yet to actually PLAY beyond the vault exit, you know?

:blink: :lmao: :rofl:

*ahem*...... You should actually try and play the game as well as do neat tools for it...... Or, do you buy games to give you unique and interesting projects?

Ok, I am using three mods, that I *think* modify the same lists.

http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=2307

http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=3388

http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=3124

I may be looking at things wrong, as I am not really "up" on leveled lists and such, but, when I build the patch, It does not appear that the lists in the last mod (nitem4re's) are included? Is it simply because they don't need to be? or, am I missing something? (the last one I got today, as it appeared to add the gun to loot lists, etc, and I wanted something that would actually do that..... for, um, testing purposes. Yeah, that's it. :whistle:

)

I haven't played yet..... I will edit this post, maybe (or make a new one.... depending on circumstances)..... once I have. Not exactly sure when that is gonna happen though...... Soon, I hope.

» Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:51 am

:blink: :lmao: :rofl:

*ahem*...... You should actually try and play the game as well as do neat tools for it...... Or, do you buy games to give you unique and interesting projects?

Well, I figured that if I invest the time now to make sure that there are proper modding tools for FO3 then by the time I get around to actually play the game (in a year or two) there'll be great mods around that make it actually worthwhile to play.

Ok, I am using three mods, that I *think* modify the same lists.

I may be looking at things wrong, as I am not really "up" on leveled lists and such, but, when I build the patch, It does not appear that the lists in the last mod (nitem4re's) are included? Is it simply because they don't need to be? or, am I missing something? (the last one I got today, as it appeared to add the gun to loot lists, etc, and I wanted something that would actually do that..... for, um, testing purposes. Yeah, that's it. :whistle:

)

Ok, I just loaded these 3 plugins into FO3Edit and created a patch. All leveled lists in Nitem4re_M4A1.esp do not overlap with any of the other two. So there is no need at all for them to be present in the patch.

FO3Edit will only add records to the patch where it finds that the merged version is actually different from the winning record.

For a record to have any chance at all of turning up in the patch it must have at least 3 different versions (master + 2 overrides) and the 2 overrides must make conflicting changes.

In this particular case the records that DO end up in the patch are all correct and will in this merged form preserve the intention of both CFW and WMK as far as I can tell.

If you see anything specifically that you don't understand or that you think is wrong please provide a screenshot (of the relevant records in FO3Edit).

» Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:46 am

I can name two mods that use the same list: http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=2810; http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=1032.

Plus http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=1032 and http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=3983 most likely conflict, as they both say they edit a food loot list.

» Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:06 am

Well, I figured that if I invest the time now to make sure that there are proper modding tools for FO3 then by the time I get around to actually play the game (in a year or two) there'll be great mods around that make it actually worthwhile to play.

Ok, I just loaded these 3 plugins into FO3Edit and created a patch. All leveled lists in Nitem4re_M4A1.esp do not overlap with any of the other two. So there is no need at all for them to be present in the patch.

FO3Edit will only add records to the patch where it finds that the merged version is actually different from the winning record.

For a record to have any chance at all of turning up in the patch it must have at least 3 different versions (master + 2 overrides) and the 2 overrides must make conflicting changes.

In this particular case the records that DO end up in the patch are all correct and will in this merged form preserve the intention of both CFW and WMK as far as I can tell.

If you see anything specifically that you don't understand or that you think is wrong please provide a screenshot (of the relevant records in FO3Edit).

Ok, thank you. That makes perfect sense.

I will see what else I can find to throw into the mix.

@YX33A, thanks for the suggestions, I will have a look.

» Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:26 pm

I got a hypothetical situation. I'm planning to make a Pulse Rifle weapon (not just a YK42b remake), and want to add it in to the same spots as the laser rifle. I'm gonna do this by making a nested leveled item list with 7 conventional laser rifles and 1 pulse rifle.

Let's say I tweek the CondLaserRifleTalon loot list. I replace the three instances of the laser rifle with three instances of this nested list, otherwise identical in starting condition and level.

How would the list merge handle this should it be eligible for merging?

» Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:41 am

How would the list merge handle this should it be eligible for merging?

Already answered http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=915003&view=findpost&p=14027492.

Beyond that. Try it. Let me know if you are not happy with the result.

» Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:22 am

What was supposed to be in the merged plugin? When I click on it to expand it I only see file header, I created the merged patch then named it mergedlevellists and it shows up bold on my list. Any help in merging my lists would be appreciated
Edit: I can't find the read me, does anyone have a link to it?

» Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:23 pm

It's likely you had no leveled lists that needed to be merged.

» Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:00 am

So then what do I do? When it started I selected all the mods I used and I right clicked in the left navigation tree and selected create merged patch and entered a file name and clicked OK

» Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:25 am

So then what do I do? When it started I selected all the mods I used and I right clicked in the left navigation tree and selected create merged patch and entered a file name and clicked OK

You did everything right. But your current load order (these specific mods in that specific order). Does. Not. Need. Any. Merging.

If the patch plugin ends up empty then it couldn't find a single record with conflicts that need merging. Now, if you DO find a record that you think should have been mergend but wasn't. I really need a screenshot of that so that I can figure out what's wrong with my merging algo.

» Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:51 pm

On the side it only lists the ESms,and I do have many plugins that edit leveledlists,like Wepon mod kits ,VZ61 and various other weapons. What exactly do you want a screenshot of?

» Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:15 am

Look through each of the mods you think may conflict. In particular, look in the Leveled Item, Leveled Creature, and Leveled NPC. If any of them are red, then they are the loser in a master override conflict. If that's the case, the merger will merge them with the winner and any other losers into an amalgam. Since you had no mergings, then it's likely that there are no conflicts in the records that this merger works on.

» Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:27 pm

Well none of the .ESMs have any colour around them,my ESPs will but I can't check them

» Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:22 am

Well none of the .ESMs have any colour around them,my ESPs will but I can't check them

Why can't you check them?? FO3Edit by default loads all the modules in the same order that your game engine would load.

» Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:35 am

Here I'll give you a picture, I have activated all the mods I use in this:
[img]http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5180/85407760.jpg[/img]

» Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:39 pm

Here I'll give you a picture, I have activated all the mods I use in this:
[img]http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5180/85407760.jpg[/img]

That screenshot clearly shows your problem:

[00:05] Background Loader: Fatal: