+1

There are still plenty of stats to keep an eye on (damage, range, armor rating, etc.), which has been a staple of RPGs since the old days of pencils and grid paper. But it's not presented in an aggressive format where you need to study every new item under a microscope to see if it's infintessimily better or worse than another item. I appreciate the plus and minus signs on item stats. Maybe that makes me a lazy casual, but I don't think so.

In other news related to the main topic of this thread...

There's an old joke about how pizza is like six. Bad pizza is still better than no pizza. I feel the same way about this game. Is it perfect? Has what I've played since Tuesday blown my mind with novelty, technical wizardry, and Shakespearean drama? Not really. But it's more Fallout. It's a world I love and it's perfectly intact. Your character speaks now, which is a thing. You might like it, hate it, or be indifferent. Does it completely upend everything Fallout-y about Fallout 4? Hardly.

Even though I sunk months into playing Witcher 3, I got kind of bored being Geralt of Rivia. Sarcastic, grumpy, occasionally funny. It's a great game, but there's only one way to play it: head first, swords swinging. There's no sneaking. There's no lockpicking. The weapons are swords, swords, and more swords.

In FO4, like all the others, you can be a sneaky thief or a macho gunslinger. Maybe the (spoken) dialogue doesn't necessarily reflect that, but the dialog never matches what I'd say if I really was that person in that situation.

Let's face it - everyone's expectations (including mine) were sky-freakin-high. Fallout 3 was the only Xbox 360 game where I earned a perfect score of 100% complete. A grand total of something like 400 hours. Yeah.

I'm thrilled to have a new Fallout game, period. It's got bugs, but they usually get patched. It's similar to previous installments in a lot of ways, different than them in other ways. It's change and all we can do is try to enjoy ourselves.

Because change never changes.

So i dont know so many fancy and big words as you people so ill try to keep it simple

Games is way to Easy on impossible or however its called in eng

There is no thrill from previous games and no loot revards ( break very hard terminal to bunkier in which i lockpick very hard chest and all get was cheeps )

Game gives you everything from money to weapons for free ( or from vendors but thats the same rly) i get first plasma rifle from vendor for like 150c and then thanks to perks i made it into doom machine at lvl 18, now im 28 with same gun...

That building system everyone is so happy about Gives absolutly nothing, all of them from villages just stands in one place and so rest of town looks like ghost town however big id build that places. I played like 26h and not once i was attack, so walls turrets and eq for defenders is for nothing... it all feels empty for me. All people in villages are named VILLAGERS thats just lazy( besides that drag queen, drama queen, and asian dude).

Only 4 different power armors :<

I love new crafting and patching system for guns and armors thats rly great.

watch?v=r3qWRiFbP_o <- thats for pip and other companions, She Loves me cause i open doors good ? I got master skill with pin babe... yeah. 1h with picklocks and she is already on her knees and whole her story is done. great.

good thing i didnt open locks in front of Strong

And Biggest [censored] Thing thats just Pure wrong doing, every... Every [censored] nameless guard villager, agent, hunter, dweller, bad guys, good guys or whaterver Have voice of Garus from ME. People wtf? you cant afford more voice actors ?call me i can play dirty Polish violence addict or whatnot. I hear now all the time garus nr 1 is talking to garus nr 2.. pfff.

Sorry for killing english, blame my teacher ;p

if anything it wasnt so much the degradation aspect that I found interesting but the spinoff effect it had on the economy and inventory management. The idea that once you obtain a weapon, you may not have it forever unless you look after it. And its resale value may vary depending on that. It makes finding other weapons as backups more important, and thus scaveging more important for survival, rather than just "where can I find a new gun with more damage". Without degradation it kinda cheapens the experience of finding a nice new bit of loot in that if I want it to be useful I have to work on it. The system in oblivion and Fallout NV was a bit simplistic but it had a good impact I think. I'd ike to see a more complex system that rewards maintenance as well as punishes neglecting it.

The Loot & Degradation mod for Skyrim was a good example of what this sort of system can do for interesting gameplay.

You guys argue too much js O_O I mean the baby stuff.

I'm sure Bethesda cares for their games greatly. If they were just a money eating machine we'd see far less quality and something more along the lines of other games out there.

Just out of curiosity I cheated myself a level 50 character just to see if I could get all my stats to ten and all the perks I wanted. I couldn't. Not even close. I was worried this was going to be an issue but removing the stupid skill system solved on of the major problems in the previous two games and that was being able to max out your skills and stats fairly easily. There is still the issue of useless perks that no one will ever use like the last levels of lockpicking and hacking but for the most part I really enjoy the new perks system.

What I don't like is that power armor gets damages over time but regular armor doesn't? That doesn't even make any sense.

With the exception of armor-/weapon-degradation (good riddance to one tediously stupid - IMHO! - mechanic, now I just need a mod that removes PA degradation! Hate how it interrupts the flow (for me that's not immersive, particularly because I would think somebody who has to depend on his/her gear takes the time to clean, strip and fix their stuff, I just don't need to see it/do it myself. I don't want to have to take a leak (or a dump) with my character either - it doesn't give my anything!) I totally agree with you - it's started (for me!) with Mass Effect (everybody is copying that stupid dialogue-system, which worked well for Mass Effect (which never had anything different and which isn't all that much of an RPG as your character is more or less fixed (sure: within those constraints you can roleplay, but it isn't a blank slate)) and has a voice, problem is: They are now porting/grafting that system on/onto other games which had great systems before -.- and it's not only happening here, Bioware changed Dragon Age to be more like Mass Effect, too (and it didn't work out so well, just like it doesn't for Fallout!))

ps: No, I don't hate Mass Effect (well, ok I hate Mass Effect 3 - but I love 1 and 2 (both are in my top ten games of all times!)), but I am looking for a different experience (though still similar!) when playing it compared to Fallout or Dragon Age (or probably even: The Witcher!) and don't want them to "Mass Effect" those games

Oh and the settlement feature (and the UI, the controls and a few other things) really need fixing/tweaking (particularly the settlement feature needs some clean buildings (and for Christ's sake: get rid of the wires and those damned diesel-generators -.- it's Fallout. Oil is supposedly very rare, while nuclear power is abundant!) as tearing down a dingy and decrepit shack just to build an equally crappy one (that would not look out of place in a damned SLUM!) isn't rewarding or cool at all (particularly if you truly are a pre-war character...come on, you know that the world doesn't have to look this way, so why are you forced to accept it -.- (that's the reason I chose a certain high tech faction on my first run because they at least have a really clean place - which would probably sound really appealing to a civilized person tired of all the killing (slaving, brutalizing etc.) the "savages" in the Commonwealth do on a daily bases! What did they call that in New Vegas? - Old World Blues (like the DLC)!)

pps: I think a person from the pre-war era would probably be suicidal (I can admit that I would be without being ashamed, I know that I wouldn't want to live in a world that has totally gone to hell without a chance to really recover in my lifetime) if dropped into that quagmire without something to focus on -.- (I mean the state of the world is DEPRESSING, sure there's small vestiges of civilization but those are fighting each other (just like the rest of the "savages") instead of banding together for a better future -.- (it's why I can totally understand striking preemptively against another faction and wiping them out - sure it might not be all nice and dandy but you can't rebuild if people are constantly trying to either put you in the ground (permanently!) or trying to steal your stuff -.-)

+1

everything he just said, i agree with

Presume? You said it yourself - "I don't have time for that anymore".

So, just because you have little time, you don't want to get involved in the game more deeply? Why? Are you in a hurry to finish the game? I have little time as well, but I don't mind a more complex character development or mechanics because I like spending a portion of my time on these. So saying you "don't have enough time" is a crappy excuse. You just don't care about such things and only want to "get some action" with the little time you have.

I've only gotten like, 5% into the game right now. This is due to time constraints where I just can't sit down and play it like I would like. With that being said however, FO4 just hasn't roped me in like FO3 did. It was FO3 that really roped me in. I loved roaming the 50's style era DC that had been laid waste to by atomic hellfire. FONV wasn't bad, but it felt lack luster for me compared to FO3. The expansions for FONV didn't help to bring that kind of charm either.

FO4 has a lot to offer, but that little "spark" that grabbed me with FO3 just isn't there right now. I hope to discover it down the road.

That is utter crap. First innovation happens and is encourage in business all the time. Most of our practical application of science happens from established companies innovating. There is little to no evidence that supports the idea that business isn't interested in innovating. Please show me how this is true? We live in an era of hyper innovation the rate at which mundane things razor blades or phones change is staggering.

Second the removal of skills and changing them into perks allows for the creation of far more diverse characters and it does so my reducing the interface complexity. There is only one form of character improvement now, perks. They improve 'skills' and specials and give unique abilities that use to fall under the old school perk system. Yet this is all done in one interface screen the perk tree. There is actually an increase in complexity of synergies of perks, specials and effects even though it is a lot easier to level up than it was before. I levelled up? great buy my perk and I am done. There is far more diversity to characters now because you don't end up with 100 in every skill now. So you have to make choices, and with specials gating access to perks you have to make investments and choices.

If you don't like the system fine but lets no lie about innovation and imply that fo4 does not encourage or allow complex characters,

They could have impoved the system with skills! It's that freakin simple. So many mods improved it to the point of perfection. And Bethesda, instead of improving it they ditched it completely.

Wow, really

You guys just cant take change, seems you prefer stagnation well Fallout 3 and FNV are still purchasable games so what are you bothering with being here.

I've read complaints about pretty much everything including the lighting, shadowing, atmosphere, and vibrancy.

Sorry but if things didn't change I'd be less interested because things that stay the same get boring.

Skill system was stupid,

Perks were really just well window dressed descriptions of things that worked only in extremely specific situations or sometimes in the case of Fallout New Vegas didn't even work at all period.

Weapon and Armor repair was a waste of player time.

Needs will be covered by modifications but don't act like we all loved it, cause that was also a waste of time, I eat enough food in my real life thanks, also I don't like more useless UI elements.

A lot of what your asking for is just a pain to deliver in a balanced fashion and I'm glad they just got rid of it and made what is here and now a reasonably balanced experience with much improved graphics and gameplay.

So tired of antiquated systems, but I'm sure that their are some in your camp that complained about Dungeons and Dragons with each edition change.

Someone once recounted to me of an invention... a rolling-pin style scanner that could be rolled over a surface (like a very fragile book for instance), and the scanner would make the scan... with no need to press the original into a flatbed scanner.

This scanner was immediately bought by a major company that sold scanners ~and buried; because they had invested heavily in manufacturing flat-bed scanners.

As far as innovation goes... One seems to innovate to get ahead of the competition... but if what you have already sells... why go to the expense of ~expensive innovation?

Considering I have have invested well over 200 hours in each of the games, that's another assumption.

That's a presumptuous assumption on your part. And you use that assumption to dismiss my argument. As you say, a "crappy" assumption.

Not to flame you down, but as an "older" gamer, someone who has seen the evolution of gaming in two decades, what you called "dumbed down" or "casualisation", I would describe it, as getting away from obsolete game mechanisme.

the fact of maintenance of weapons has been in each possible RPG since the late 90′... It is realistic and great on paper, however in experience, the time spending doing this, could be used to do someting else.

The big discussion when skyrim vame out, was about the compass, it was not "RPG" enough to have an arrow pointing were to go, but the question you have to askyourself is, do players really want to spent time looking for a place based on an NPC direction?

For FO4 the settlement mechanic is complex and most casual gamers won't even touch it.

Building has been devlopped for the Hard core niche of the FO franchise, same as armor layering and weapons.

The system is really deep and complex and result in.... complains

Based on what I've seen so far I think perk based abilities in favor of 0-100 based skills is actually a step in the right direction (although I expected I would be completely against it). I'm all for having skills, but then they would have to be meaningful. They make a lot more sense if you check against dice rolls, and we all know how well that worked in Morrowind (I can see I'm hitting, but I'm not getting any damage - due visual indication of a miss was missing). Critical failures and flukes would have to be accounted for as well in the animation system - probably too much in a computer game, but easy enough to imagine in a table top RPG.

Not fully convinced the current perk tree is best possible way to go. How i.e. all lockpicking is available at low SPECIAL base and level, rather than a more complex one where different levels of lockpicking perks had different requirements. Big issue with that would be "how to present it on screen in a logical and relatively easy way to navigate", where the "dumbed down" current system actually works good. Basically, I would like to have more depth to it, but don't have clue as to how to achieve it

Here you have some feedback Bethesda:

- Great: atmosphere, power armor and weapon modding, great music, improved gunplay and VATS (time does not freeze anymore), building, legendary enemies/weapons

- Mediocre: storyline, mediocre side quests, mediocre graphics (which I care about least, but it has to be said). Personally, I like that the "repair" system is gone, it consumed entire items.. so you had to carry e.g. a complete second armor with you.

- Really bad: PC port (!!!, I mean, what the hell were you thinking (were you actually thinking?) with that menu? That building controls?), less RPG than ever , srsly, that dialogue system.. we don't even know what the protagonist is going to say, only SPECIAL that affects talking to NPCs is charisma, no options for intelligence, perception, strength and so on, no chance to play a bad or good character; that engine.. frames affect speed???, skills are gone too

And why do I find a minigun and a power armor in the first 2 minutes? This may be a bait for all the new-to-Fallout players (look, we got some serious CoD action here too!). This remembered me to Gothic 3 at release. In the frst camp of rebels (after 10 minutes) I could buy the best sword in the entire game (that fireblade). Completely ruined the whole game for me, because there was no more improvement on that sector.

I hope you will get back to your roots and focus on role-playing more in your next fallout. I am very disappointed and sad. For me, Fallout games were always around 95/100, this one is a 79/100. As your guys in the QA hopefully know, there is a thing called Continual Improvement Process.

Please start to learn from your games, take the negative things and make them better, don't simplify everything to death, I do not want to play "Call of Fallout".

yeah but Fallout 1 just ripped off Wasteland anyway. They did to Wasteland what Bethesda did to Fallout 2. Took a great game and made it their own. And I'm sure the creators of Fallout 3 "truly love it like it is their baby", cos it is.

Ok.

The "I'm older/have no time" is the absolute worst excuse for compromises in the gaming industry.

There is little to no evidence that supports the idea that Bethesda is interested in innovating.

Change isn't always good. Fallout NV made a playable game in a horrible engine. So many improvements to quests, NPCs, dialog, story, crafting, agriculture, boy you name it. Progress! Fallout 2 had so much more complexity in dialog and quests than Fallout 1 AND a "Take All" option for inventory**! Progress! Fallout 4? Well, Fallout 4 managed to somehow squeeze out of its system all the things that used to make something a Fallout game or an RPG for that matter.

The best.

Reminds me of millenials defending iPhone addictions by saying "Human interaction is an obsolete hominid condition!"

This is patently false and ignores the fact that Brian Fargo was the captain of both ships.

**that's just a little old-school Fallout joke for ya.

Can you list such a mechanic? (I cannot think of one; and I can think of a lot of game mechanics. I don't think that there is such a thing.)

You just really love to pile assumption on top of assumption when dealing with strangers on the internet don't you? Can I help you finish burying yourself in that hole you are digging? As another poster said, getting rid of obsolete game mechanisms is not dumbing down or casualization. Wasteland 2 is perhaps more your style of game, you're welcome to go play it. I have it and do play it, I just devote more of my time to other games.

I disagree it is either a "step backward" or "forward." It is a new game that uses the Fallout Universe as its content base. The fact that it really needs to be judged on its own merits didn't occur to me as I read this thread yesterday and before I had it installed.

Having installed it now and played a few hours (certainly not enough to come to any nuanced conclusions about relative strengths and weaknesses, but enough to know: is it fun, or is it meh?) I find it fun.

In 100 hours I'll probably have a list of 20 "love this" and 5 to 10 "hate this" items but I'm not going to judge Fallout 4 based on Fallouts 1 through 3 + NV or based on any other game really. I'm going to judge it based on it: is it fun, does it give me hours of enjoyment, or doesn't it?

So far, my initial impression is: it is very fun and it will give me 100+ hours of play, and by then it may have been patched or updated so anything that is annoying might have been fixed.

I certainly agree with this; (but this is why I've never understood the tiles being given as FO3 and FO4, it doesn't make any sense).