Before anyone goes bat [censored] crazy over the topic title, let me first say that I am actually enjoying FO4 overall. I love the music (ambient not licensed). I love the new real-time combat system. I love the vastly improved lighting and fog effects.

What I don't like, however, is that FO4 is not only a step backwards for the FO franchise, but also a step back for Bethesda. This is by no means an issue specific to Bethesda. Rather, it is a symptom of a systemic problem affecting the videogame industry. This problem goes by many names. Casualization. Dumbing down. Streamlining. The end result is always the same: gradual changes to gameplay mechanics over the course of several sequels.

In Fallout 3, as in Oblivion, we had skills (major and minor), weapon/armor degradation, and a more complex dialogue system, to name a few. These things were very significant in the overall gameplay experience and were a trademark from the Bethesda games that I grew to love over the years.

However, the world hasn't ended yet. The good news is that all of these problems are completely fixable (eventually) via mods.

Again, I don't hate FO4. I am enjoying it, particularly the settlement feature. I also like the look and feel of the game world. But I must say that I am so disappoint with Bethesda. Bethesda has always self-published and I respected this because it meant that they were not beholden to the marketing schemes of a publisher. Unfortunately, I guess greed won out over integrity, and Bethesda chose a larger audience over a "negligible market share".

Alright, I've said what I needed to say. Proceed with the flames.

I would agree and disagree. It does take some steps forwards in some areas, such as the wide, radioactive wasteland. Even Skyrim felt confined due to impassible mountains. However, in other areas, such as "in depth and detailed conversations" and "No talking to victory" then I'd have to agree. Speaking to Benny and Lanius from NV was a treat. Fallout 2 had that same "This conversation really matters" feeling. 3 less so but still there. I just don't feel it here. It instead feels more like "Oh, hi faction leader or quest giver, what's next?" Talk to the mayor and he's just like "Go about your business, I'm a boring person." I think it's the dialog overall that's weakest. In terms of how much is said that is. When it's said it's said well for the most part, but many people just have very little to say. Generic settler/guard? Ok, fair enough. The MAYOR of Diamond city when walking into his office? Nope. Not even a quest given. Give me "Snoop on Piper" for 100 caps.

I'm enjoying the game too, but I fear that without such things being improved upon (and even going backwards in some areas) then my interest in the game will eventually fade once I done it all with each faction. With the same ultimate outcome, safe one... Who I can already assume will tel you to "Better the world by killing the other guys". It's that predictable isn't it? Therein lies the problem. Not doing anything new/big on a larger scale. Change in pace with Freedom Trail made a nice change though. I guess it's a case of "One step forward, one step back". But it just feels like there shouldn't be a back in this case.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1547922-your-review-on-the-game/ Firm but fair. Can see the good, but also what is lacking.

I still don't see much "casualization" going on here.

To say skills were "removed" is failing to look at the big picture, I think. It's a new ruleset, essentially. A lot of those Perks are skills, for all intents and purposes, for starters. It's also a rebalance of the mechanics - Attributes now play a much stronger role in what your character is capable of and where their strengths and weaknesses are. Which I think is a big step up from Fallout 3 where they didn't really do much of anything at all. It's almost kind of ludicrous to assume that Bethesda's prime motivation in changing this system was to make it simpler for all these hypothetical unwashed masses out there.

You can't get much simpler than the old Attribute and Skill combo. How good am I at Small Guns? 76 out of 100? Okay - pretty self-explanatory. If anything, the new system is more likely to overwhelm someone with little experience with this type of game - at every level up there are significantly more options with more weight in them than in the system before. I've argued this before, I think it's perfectly clear that more thought went into Fallout 4's system than most of Bethesda's past few games.

Ditto item degradation. I think there's still some interesting avenues to explore in that area (I still think being able to add a "well-maintained" status buff on weapons would be more interesting than "let me duct tape this gun to my broken gun every half hour.) But I think it's pretty clear they chose to double-down on the crafting this time out. Personally I'll take that trade. It's all conjecture, obviously - no one actually knows what goes on during development at Bethesda or what conversations they have about these mechanics.

But "casual players are dumb - let's strip out an incredibly simple repair mechanic and replace it with a significantly more complex crafting system so that we can better appeal to their laziness" just strikes me as an odd motivation. I would think that if you wanted to focus on expanded crafting that your usual repair mechanics may be at odds with that. Do you strip down a weapon so that you can improve the one you really like or do you carry a bunch of extras around just in case your weapon breaks?

Mechanics encourage specific gameplay behaviors - that's their purpose. If I have item degradation I'm encouraging the player to loot bodies and scavenge areas for parts to keep my weapons in good repair. If I want players to also break down items for crafting then there's tension in terms of where you put those resources the player finds. (In other words - now I have an extra gun, do I break it down for parts or do I use it to repair my other rifle?)

Not everyone's going to like the voiced dialog and significantly more set-in-stone backstory this time out. That's just going to be a love it/hate it thing. There's absolutely no way I'm going to debate something as subjective as that.

Like the game or don't. And of course people are going to have mechanics in games that they just really enjoy having in there. But "I liked duct-taping my weapons together and wish I could still do that," is not the same statement as "I liked duct-taping my weapons together and now it's gone it's an objective detriment to the quality of the game specifically done in service to the lowest common denominator."

i wasnt keen on them removing stats either but when i really think about it not having them doesnt really bother me that much but the dialouge, thats [censored], fuk having a voiced character if it mean comprimising the fallout dialouge system, and having hardly anyone to talk too, ioved going round talking to everyone finding out there backstory and the history of the place and stuff, ive not played enough yet to know if its really that bad but ive been reading alot of pople say it though

I actually like the new skill tree. Want sneak? There it is under agility. Hacking? Check under intelligence. Somehow it makes the skills feel easier to use with +1 stat point each level. Perk levels are set well enough that it feels like a tactical choice to make, not just "5 points here and 5 there". Still, it may have been better to go with +2 points every third level or something. I feel like I get them too quickly.

@morgan: I'm afraid it's that bad.

Yeah, the biggest problems I feel so far are definitely in the lack of depth for conversations and quests. Even the opening of the game feels rushed and weird as if the game didn't care about world building and just wanted to shove you out the door to show off it's coolest toys. Merging skills into perks is still a really weird idea I'm not sure about yet, but in a Role Playing Game, I find it monumentally more important to build my own character and be able to imagine them as I see fit. The voiced dialog? The forced personality? The pre-baked backstory? Baaad direction. I was hoping to play Fallout, not a poorly done Mass Effect knockoff in a Fallout-y world.

But it's still early. Maybe these early jitters will wear off... but right now I'm not feeling confident as I was when I went in and I'm really hoping Obsidian can take the reigns again in a few years and that this isn't a horrible foreboding future for Elder Scrolls.

I disagree... this is a big step forwards. I found in both FO3 and FO:NV, you could literally take SPECIAL out and it wouldn't have affected gameplay at all. Why? Because skills overshadowed SPECIAL!

Low strength? Just up your melee and you'll be knockin them dead...

Low perception? Doesn't matter! Level up guns and energy weapons and you'll hit everything on the mark!

Low endurance? Doesn't matter! Level up your unarmed and survival skills, and you'll be brawling and eating anything!

Low charisma? Doesn't matter! Just level up speech and barter and you'll be making best friends and rolling in caps!

Low intelligence? Doesn't matter! Just up medicine and science and you'll be hacking computers and limbs in no time!

Low agility? Doesn't matter! Just level up sneak and you'll never be seen... until it's to late!

Low luck? Well, you won't be making as many critical hits, but hey, if you've got high skills in whatever weapons you're using, it's not like you need to be relying on luck for criticals.

Also, as a person who plays high int characters, I've found that in vanilla NV, I could get almost every skill close to 90 or more by the time I hit the DLC level cap at 50. With the current FO4, most people with skills would be maxing them out between 50-60 if they have more than 1 int.

Everyone and they're grandmother is a critic...

Bethesda is stepping back in another area as well ... and believe it or not, this is a good thing. Remember piecemeal armor in Morrowind and how they reduced that in Oblivion, and by Fallout 3/FONV/Skyrim you wore what can best be described as armor onesies? Hoo-ray for Armor layers! When the mod kit comes out it's likely that someone will fix a lot of the clothes you can't wear armor pieces with to allow them.

I dunno. One of the main peeves I had with Morrowind, Oblivion and FO3 was the constant having to go to menus all the time. That is one big reason I was happy to see Skyrim do away with repairing equipment. It got old.

Not flaming you in the least. It's just how I feel.

In my experience this criticism has been leveled at every new Bethesda release. Criticism ... Never changes.

It's also fairly naive to think they weren't, since that's just how business works. And Bethesda are interested in making money much more than they are interested in maintaining complexity or innovating. That's not a dig, that's just business. They're a company, and unfortunately not one full of the developers who hold the series' title close to their heart as the baby they gave birth to.

That said, I would be interested in a discussion dissecting the current and classic skill mechanics and how they affect certain outcomes. The cut-off levels in the originals was not obvious or arbitrary, and sifting through a computer with a high enough set of Science and Doctor might net you plans for subdermal armor. But the game doesn't exactly let you know this unless you've built your character accordingly.

I agree with everything you've just said.

I 100% agree with you about the removal of the armor and weapons degradation system.

It and the immortal companions are just 2 reasons why I still have not purchased Fallout 4 and even though I play video games on PC and have access to mods. I don't feel like spending $60 dollars (USD) or whatever amount of money to purchase Fallout 4 and have to download or make mods to give me back features. It should of been in Fallout 4 right out of the box.

Instead I'm just sitting on the side and reading topics here in the Bethesda Softworks Fallout 4 forums. Sigh .

SPECIAL is still worthless. It's just a way to gate perks and still has next to no impact on the character. The whole system is more of a lateral move than forward or back.

Actually it added a nice break from the constant action. Constant action, that gets old.

If I understand what you are saying there, I have to say, I think you are speculating and derogating the developers unnecessarily. This is what I find irksome about these kinds of threads, which seem to crop up by the dozens immediately after Bethesda (or most publishers) make a major release.

It is one thing to say "I don't like _this_. I find this annoying, unfun (whatever). Why was this designed this way? Can it be changed in a patch?" all of which would be constructive, though possibly just the subjective opinion of one user or a small number of users.

But adding to that " . . . I'll tell you why its 'broken.' Cause they are lazy, greedy, insidious, money-grubbing liars!"

Puhleeez

+1

I see what you did there

Of course if you're making a game this size you want to reach a large market. I just think it's kind of silly to assume every feature one doesn't like is due to market concerns.

Like I said above - some of the logic behind that assumption just doesn't track.

... actually, no it's not. My current character, I started with low perception, she couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from 100 yards away. I put on low strength, armed melee attacks are pretty sad against anything bigger than a dog. SPECIAL actually has a much bigger affect on your character this time around.

In VATS. There is no difference outside of it. SPECIAL changed melee damage in Fallout 3/NV as well. The +damage perks have a much bigger impact than any SPECIAL attribute just like skills used to.

I don't understand why so many like such a tedious task. I loathed it in Oblivion, having to carry around a bunch of hammers and fixing everything after every swing of my sword...nothing "realistic" or enjoyable about that. I praised the 9 when they removed it in Skyrim and I'm happy it's not in FO4. If anything there should be a bonus to damage/defense for maintaining equipment, that way it would be an optional thing to do and not menial preventive maintenance to keep the item from breaking.

Well, it's not up for debate. None of the original developers (i.e. The "parents" who "gave birth" to the Fallout series) work for Bethesda. Not sure what you wanted from me, but I am very sorry you didn't get it. ˉ\_(ツ)_/ˉ

Not sure where to post my feedback I'll post it here too just to be safe.

Honestly I'm too lazy to go through all of this right now but I'm going to anyway. I personally haven't played the game that much yet, but I've watched my brother, but not having experienced first hand I don't really know anything yet so I'll update later. But here's what I've noticed so far, as a fan of the series.

Okay so the game has huge improvements over Skyrim, the customization I personally believe is the best face sculpting system I've ever seen in a game so far. Skyrim's was great imho, but Fallout 4 totally blows skyrim away. The ability to fine tune individual features like the size of the nose tip and such are phenominal. I will say however, it would be handy to have sliders still as we could have better and more precise control over refining individual features on our faces. Using the thumbsticks it can be very difficult to nudge the feature into perfect alignment, and more often than not we end up just settling for something that looks decent, but not necessarily perfect. I know Bethesda wanted to make the customization system more seamless and revolutionary by making it based on sculpting, but there should be a way to control exactly how much we want to move a part of the face exactly the way we want it. Personally, I didn't have much of a problem with this as I was happy with how my character turned out, but others may find it meticulous. Also there should be a few more hairstyles, the amount of facial hair options are fine.

AI and animations/behavior has been GREATLY improved from Skyrim. Using only animations for the creatures/enemies, this game takes it pretty much as far as it can go. I had my doubts watching the trailer, but in-game it all looks absolutely fantastic. The only thing I would think could improve it would be to somehow implement physics in the movement of creatures/people like we see in Red Dead or Gta, I honestly have no idea how difficult this might be to pull off, but somewhere down the road in the evolution of video games in general, we should start to see physics being utilized to make creature/character movement look more natural. If this were to be coupled with the behaviors already present in Fallout 4, it would be mind blowing. But this is something that has to wait for the tech and hardware to catch up most likely.

Weapons customization- best I've ever seen, it's really great XD

Building your own settlements- I personally haven't done it yet myself, but I heard it's a little finnicky when trying to place objects exactly where you want them without attaching to other stuff. Personally, I think this is a great leap forward for video games, and is the first time we've seen something like this in a AAA game, it's phenominal. I honestly didn't think we'd see this in any game this soon, but to see it this early gives me great faith in the future of video games and Bethesda games. I can't wait to build my sprawling trading empire in TES VI or VII! XD

Now I only have three real complaints at the moment

The abscence of skills- honestly, I'm not sure why they went in this direction, but having skills is essential to Fallout and TES. Maybe it's trying to be innovative, but really it just feel like a feature that's been cut off. I think they need to bring skills back in future games. Maybe they can implement them in new ways, that's fine, but it should be there in some way shape or form. Also the perk system is a little overwhelming. They're all just listed in random order, it's a little to be able to deal with having to read every single perk before I can decide what I want to get. If they were organized under stats and\or subsequently under their corresponding skills, it would be much easier to decide what I want to improve, another reason skills should somehow still be in the game.

This one is perhaps the worst one. Urghhh. When I put my weapon away, it doesn't show up on my back or in it's holster. ARGAGGHAGHGAHGHAGHAHGAHA noooooo Bethesda :*(

Being able to have your equipment hanging off your character is essential to role playing and fully fleshing out your character's image. Just having equipment hanging around your character makes your character look more involved, experienced, and battle hardened. The numerous mods overhualing the feature for Skyrim should make it apparent that this is important to fans of the series. Not sure why it got cut, but this is something that definately needs to be present in the game to make it feel complete.

For example, what if in Elder Scrolls weapons just disappeared when you put them away, that would be totally lame! I gotta see my sword hanging off the side, gotta see my shield strapped to my arm or around my back, gotta see my bow and quiver, just any rpg needs to have it. I know someone will make a mod for this, but console gamers may miss out on this for Fallout 4. Please Bethesda! I Beseech you! Please make this dream of ours last a little longer! *end of over dramatic imploring and yammering*

Dialogue- really they should keep the dialogue the way it was in previous games. I don't so much mind the voiced protagonist as I did before and I've warmed up to it since E3 after seeing it in game, while it seems a little strange for some characters it is generic and encompassing enough that it can match a variety of characters. But the response wheel is atrocious. It limits the variety of responses to 4 options, this has already been said many times before on these forums, but it's much better to have a list of several things to say or ask about. For example, if I'm told I must go to the Swamp of Enamoring Tranquility to slay the Vulga Tawn Leei tribe and reclaim the lost Amulet of Everlasting Pestilence so that the Murri Knights may re-establish themselves as the inherint protectors of all things good, I should be able to ask about any one of these things and what they are in any order I like, rather than have the conversation layed out into a single unweavable conversation where we talk about one thing then the next in only one exact sequence that cannot be changed. This is a silly example but things like this are inhibited when limited to 4 response options. Also- really just bad is for some of the conversations, if I chose to walk away I can't go back and resume the conversation with a few particular npcs, it just ends and is forever lost in time to the void of all game content I missed out on cause I wasn't careful enough to listen and find every bit of content in my game.

And also I guess the map size should be bigger, more hairstyles, more eye options, maybe more mouth and nose, maybe in the future we can see cool things like puting the hair through a gradient system so we can see things like some people who have red hair with a few blonde hairs, or their hair is starting to gray but they still have a few dark hairs in that beard. I don't know, just a silly thing I thought about while customizing my Fallout 4 character, thinking oh! wouldn't that be cool!

But I do agree, some areas have seen great improvement, but other things we've lost so, it's good with some bad.

I think it's a big step forward in some cases and steps backwards in others.

Dialogue for example, I am happy that they tried a voiced protag, but I don't really like it. It works perfectly for a story driven game where you are a pre-determined character(Mass Effect), but not in a game like this where you can be anyone. It's hard to be that crazy, don't-give-a-[censored], stealthy thief guy when the character always sounds so concerned and normal as well as having almost no fitting things to say. I can't even see what he's about to say!

I don't hate it, but I hope they don't bring it back next time.

That's basically my only major complaint, otherwise the game has been frigging amazing so far. I never enjoyed weapon and armor degradation, it was just annoying and frustrating.

^This^ Were those hammers made of day old bread? Swing, swing, snap. I'll take no repair system over a tedious one.