Follow the bread crumbs : V

» Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:00 am

Video games today have a tendency to cater for the simple-minded dunce who relies on visual cues in order to complete quests and or find specific locations in the game world.
I'm talking about the infamous 'quest tracking' and spending 80% of the game looking at the bottom of your screen to check the compass to find your bearings. The good ol' days
of having to read your journal, comprehend the quest text, understand the actual goal of the set task ended with the last few generations of games.

A particularly crummy case of this would be in the recently released console game 'Fable 3' that actually IMPLEMENTED a golden trail for you, yes, that's right! You, the player have to
mindlessly follow the colourful golden sparkles like some kind of mouth-breathing drone in order to complete current tasks like quests. This is a particular bad case and it is the ultimate
example of spoon feeding, actually whenever I tend to think about the golden trail I can imagine Peter Molyneux (The game designer) spoon feeding me with a smug face whilst saying
aloud "Here comes the aeroplane".

"cough" but back on topic, what did you think of the quest tracking that was implemented in Oblivion? Would you prefer something similar to what was in Morrowind perhaps (ie. a
journal and a map)? Or are you a bread crumb kinda guy that likes video games to be straightforward (Thinking is work, I just wanna relax!)?

» Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:55 pm

Thank you for the comment on Mr. Molyneux. Made my night... (Here is something I wrote pretending to be him while I am OT)

Spoiler

Fable 4 will be a continuation of our crowning achievement, the Fable series. We have added some amazing new features. First off, in most games you start at the bottom of society and you end the game as a hero. In Fable 3 we mixed that up by making you become a King about halfway through the game. This time we are mixing it up again. You start as the child of the player character of Fable 3. If you have a saved game of Fable 3, the king (and you as you are his child) resembles your previous character. As you start as royalty this time around, the first part of the game is learning to manage the kingdom. From there you can choose to help your parent lead or have him assassinated and take over by force. A real coup d'état, if you will.

From there you manage the kingdom, either as a tyrant or an honorable lord or lady. But you can always go off on adventures in disguise. However, you will not engage in combat, you will bring members of your guard to protect you. These outings are all instanced, there is no longer the unneeded open world we had before. We found that it distracted players from the core gameplay experience. Also. we have streamlined the game much more this time, instead of having a movable camera we went with a superior fixed rail camera system. We wanted to make it more of a theatrical experience this time around.

Finally, much of the buttons and skills we had in previous games have been found redundant, and therefore removed. For example, instead of a button for attacking and a button for magic, we simplified all actions to just the A button. Known in game as the "Do" Button, it will be used for selecting from a list of options such as increasing or decreasing taxes, picking a spouse, choosing clothes (which continue to not affect stats), and choosing between chicken and beef for dinner. Hopefully, by Fable 6 we will do away with these things as well and finally release our idea of the perfect game. A movie.

Anyways I want it to be a little more realistic. A person shouldn't say he wants you to go to someplace he has never been to find an item and then you are led right to it. Maybe led to the cave if he marks your map. Give me that, a better local map, and the ability to write notes on my maps in game and I am good.

» Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:59 am

This thread is so original .....this is headed for disaster.

» Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:10 am

Hm... well, I wouldn't mind if they marked it on the map sometimes and I think a marker should be visible on your compass when you get close to something (I spent 20 minutes looking for a wayshrine in Oblivion because it was marked a bit off on the image and had no marker, and was hard to see in the forest) but I'd rather not have the arrow telling me where to go all the time. Just need some more information.

Another thing I was contemplating in a similar vein was a lack of quest info updates in a mystery quest, but the problem with that is it is often hard to tell what is coincidentally done or a quirk in programming and what is an actual clue.

» Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:01 pm

This definitely deserves a poll.

I prefer the Morrowind implementation. It adds a lot more depth to the quests.

» Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:24 pm

Wow, I haven't played or seen Fable 3 but that sounds bad.

I liked how Oblivion did it. I like how Morrowind did it better. Basically, I want the map markers that Oblivion had but either A. Have an option to toggle it on or off, or B. Have it only in specific situations. If I'm sent to a cave to find someone's lost friend, I shouldn't have a map marker telling me exactly where this person is because I shouldn't know, but if I'm given a quest to go talk to someone in a town, then I'm fine with having a map marker on that person, especially since people have varying schedules and I don't want to have to search the entire town tracking this person down.

I understand and appreciate the map markers of Oblivion. I got really frustrated with Morrowind numerous times because I'd get lost for half an hour or more due to awful directions given by the NPCs, but I don't want the map marker FORCED on me like it was in Oblivion. I'd typically get a quest that has no active map marker and set it to active in certain situations.

» Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:12 am

actually whenever I tend to think about the golden trail I can imagine Peter Molyneux (The game designer) spoon feeding me with a smug face whilst saying aloud "Here comes the aeroplane".

dude this is the best mental image

"cough" but back on topic, what did you think of the quest tracking that was implemented in Oblivion? Would you prefer something similar to what was in Morrowind perhaps (ie. a journal and a map)? Or are you a bread crumb kinda guy that likes video games to be straightforward (Thinking is work, I just wanna relax!)?

i didn't HATE the quest marker. i hated how it was implemented, but i didn't straight up hate the idea of it. i mean in most RPGs a questgiver will say something like HERE I'LL MARK IT ON YOUR MAP and really the quest marker was pretty much just that - tying the map marker to the compass. having to stop and look at your map every five seconds to see if you're there yet isn't challenging, it's dumb.

the only real problem with it was that it would almost always track the NPC directly, instead of just going HE'S USUALLY HERE, IF HE'S NOT THEN WAIT FOR HIM OR ASK AROUND OR SOMETHING. if they'd made that one change, having it mark an area where the NPC can generally be found and if he's not then making you ask around to see where he might be otherwise, then it would've been perfectly fine.

given the option between quest marker and no quest marker, i'd probably go with the quest marker. not a GOLDEN TRAIL, but just a thing on the compass that says IT'S NORTH, GO NORTH. better instructions would be nice too since they never actually GAVE DIRECTIONS in Oblivion, but they're doing that in Skyrim anyway so.

This thread is so original .....this is headed for disaster.

your contributions to this forum will never be forgotten, good sir. i salute you and all the hard work you've done this past day.

» Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:00 pm

I'm not going to comment on the topic. But saying simplifications are for simple minded dunces is a bit to naive, if outright wrong. The breadcrumb trail isn't my favorite thing but its almost like a Fable flair as it is a "tool" to help players. It's not the best, intelligent, or easiest way to go about though. Well, maybe the last one. Some people like various pointing out just to get to the meat, and not waste time. This is a piece of entertainment afterall for people seemingly overindulged to worry about not being bored rather than fighting for their next meal. Second not everything of old did this in a particularly great way. Sometimes even over complicated for their own good. Gamers adapted. Suddenly they get a superiority complex when a better, or more well defined way is implemented amd theyfeel their better for mastering the older way. ((Sorry for all grammatical mistakes. Typing from a touchscreen))

» Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:07 pm

Just to give a little defense to fable, despite not liking the last two, you could turn the trail off and therefor not use it. So there is really no argument there seeing that you could just turn it off.

However, according to the information we have, Quest givers might actually point you in the direction you are supposed to go, giving a little more of a reason for a compass. Sure, its not justified, but at least its like Morrowinds fast travel; more immersive compared to just automatically knowing where to go.

@br0sk1 is correct.

» Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:34 pm

Actaully it was fable 2 that started the golden trail, just sayin. But I completely agree.

» Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:40 pm

Really the idea of quest markers is genius but the green (target) should not exist. It should only go to static locations. All it did was automate something your character would have to do irl. To plot a mark on a map (besides just using random chance) it takes a tiny bit of math know how. Not a lot, but enough that many people wouldn't know how to do it if I gave them a map and a compass and asked them to. Heck most people are idiots, half the people I deal with can't decipher basic hand signals when I try and direct them to steer their car to a specific point. IF I WAVE YOU FORWARD DRIVE FORWARD DAMN IT DON'T JUST STARE AT ME!!!

Sorry. I dislike some parts of my job...

» Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:04 am

I agree. I hate the quest tracking. I'd do fine without it.

On the Fable thing, they had that golden trail in the 2nd too (not sure on first 1 though

» Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:03 am

you never have to use the quest compass just chose a different quest
and it is already confirmed that quest markers are in the game :celebration: :celebration:

» Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:38 pm

Just remember there are those that play the games moreso for their gameplay. And the quests just provide a 'guide' to that mindless gameplay, so they like having a guide for everything. I am not one of those people, I love a good puzzle and having to read my way to the answer in a quest (meaning where to go

), but I think we must account for everyone. There should be some form of quest guidance. Perhaps you can even have an option to turn it off, and none of them are ever shown.

» Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:05 am

I prefer the Morrowind implementation. It adds a lot more depth to the quests.

Depends how it is done. Mindless wondering around doesn't add any more depth than following the golden trail of bread crumbs. One just takes longer than the other.

If we are talking about an example where the quest giver tells you "Go north west young man" and you are in the south east corner of the map and that is all the direction available through in game clues, no thanks, I'll take the quest markers.

If people can actually give you directions and you can investigate and ask around, buy maps, read books about an area, follow clues, etc. to find what you are looking for I'd be all for it.

I've never really seen that approach done to my satisfaction though. Probably because it would take a ton of time and effort to create all the text, dialogue and voice overs to do it. While I'm not crazy about easy to follow quest markers, it is leaps and bounds ahead of wondering around aimlessly for hours tying to find a needle in the middle of Skyrim.

» Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:06 am

actually whenever I tend to think about the golden trail I can imagine Peter Molyneux (The game designer) spoon feeding me with a smug face whilst saying
aloud "Here comes the aeroplane".

I have never actually seen him register any emotion other than pure undiluted smug.

» Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:37 pm

ah the good old days of having to think and search for what you need. People these days have been accustomed to instant gratification.

But with quest markers also came poor quest descriptions. Since makers point you to the quest location, it no longer became as important to give a good and detailed description to help the player actually get there on his own.

» Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:00 am

I, personally, had my trusty map of Cyrodiil handy (next to my ps3) at all times when playing Ob. . I also wish they wouldn't put your position on the map. Wouldn't this be neat? You would actually have to pay attention as to where you are heading, and if you get side-tracked, or chased by something, your lost in the wild and skrewed. Now, that would be awesome imo. (this should be optional)

» Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:51 am

IMO Halo: ODST got the map markers right on the compass. Not the markers appearing in the middle of the screen, but the pulsing area on the map and diamond on the compass giving the rough whereabouts of what you want, if it is static. Funny how I think they should take advice from an FPS but I really think that Bungie got it right then.

Map markers should definitely be optional, and directions given. Map markers should just be to save you the trouble of personally remembering the directions.

» Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:08 pm

I, personally, had my trusty map of Cyrodiil handy (next to my ps3) at all times when playing Ob. . I also wish they wouldn't put your position on the map. Wouldn't this be neat? You would actually have to pay attention as to where you are heading, and if you get side-tracked, or chased by something, your lost in the wild and skrewed. Now, that would be awesome imo. (this should be optional)

Great Idea!!! and the map would show landmarks so when you see the waterfall you know you'll be around the little drawn waterfall on the map. or small things like two trees that cross in a perfect X.

» Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:11 pm

I'd like to earn map/compass markers. Like, instead of magically knowing where something is, you have to do a little detective work.

For example, someone might tell you about a treasure in a nearby Dwemer ruin. From there, you're shown either a couple of possible ruins on your map, or are given a vague idea of where to look, in the form of a large-ish coloured circle on the map- it could be anywhere in that circle.

And once you find the right ruin, it could keep narrowing down each time you find a clue, until you know exactly which chest to open, or at least which room to enter.

» Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:30 am

The very first sentence manages to get to the point and invoke the whole "casual as a made-up device to ridicule game design decisions I don't like and anyone that agrees with them" meme.

I'll try to be constructive despite that. Firstly, I want Skyrim to be Skyrim and not Morrowind, which I do not like better than Oblivion even though I appreciate it as a good game. Oblivion's quest tracking system is great in my opinion, and far better than Morrowind's. I do understand the desire for directions so that quests are functional without outright markers, but I can't say I support the total removal of the option of markers as some bizarre crusade against "unworthy" gamers who are guilty of nothing more than having different game play tastes than you. They have hinted at several things about this. One, NPCs will give you directions, and in some cases will walk with you to a path and point you in the direction to go (something that is remarkably realistic, that's exactly what people do in real life when trying to give you directions). How well an NPC gives you directions is supposedly based on how much the NPC likes you. I'm not sure if that was an accurate quote from somewhere though.

I'll be happy either way they do it.

I have never actually seen him register any emotion other than pure undiluted smug.

He has expressed regret about not meeting all of the promises he's made in the past. He's also expressed less pride than he deserves to express about some of his older games as well. I'm not a huge fan of him and I haven't played most of his games but it's become something of a meme to bash him and that kind of sad, in my opinion. I suppose that gets in the way of the caricature people like to portray him as though.

» Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:05 pm

Wow, I haven't played or seen Fable 3 but that sounds bad.

I liked how Oblivion did it. I like how Morrowind did it better. Basically, I want the map markers that Oblivion had but either A. Have an option to toggle it on or off, or B. Have it only in specific situations. If I'm sent to a cave to find someone's lost friend, I shouldn't have a map marker telling me exactly where this person is because I shouldn't know, but if I'm given a quest to go talk to someone in a town, then I'm fine with having a map marker on that person, especially since people have varying schedules and I don't want to have to search the entire town tracking this person down.

I understand and appreciate the map markers of Oblivion. I got really frustrated with Morrowind numerous times because I'd get lost for half an hour or more due to awful directions given by the NPCs, but I don't want the map marker FORCED on me like it was in Oblivion. I'd typically get a quest that has no active map marker and set it to active in certain situations.

Yes, sometimes the directions was hard to follow, but I just troubled serious once and it was my own fault actually, instead of following the way I was told I teleported out and travelled to a closer location on the other side. Because I was levitating over the mountain I did not see the cave opening but it was no problem seeing then I travelled down the path I was told to

However in Skyrim the quest giver would not have the dialogue to explain how to find the all random location and I have no problem with them marking the location on the map as they know where it is, no the location don't need to be totally accurate.

Don't care much for the compass indicator, as it has little impact, it's nice then trying to navigate rough terrain but understand many people find it annoying. Ability to turn off or simply let you set your own maker who might be the quest location.

And no quest markers in dungeons, pretty unneeded as most dungeons are pretty small and unlike map markers they can not easily be explained.

» Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:36 pm

After reading some of the replies here a quest from Oblivion popped back into my mind, it was during my characters induction quest into the thieves guild. I remember listening to my recruiter like a child all watery eyed with anticipation on Christmas eve, it was the quest where you were entrusted with stealing a personal item from some poor individual who must have crossed swords with the wrong folk. It ticked all the right boxes for an awesome quest, those being to break into the imperial city, finding one house among many, picking the locked door and searching its entire contents for one particular item without waking its inhabitants ALL against the clock in order to obtain the item prior to your fellow colleagues. Only to find the quest actually involved following a green indicator that lead me directly to the chaps house, told me which floor of the house the item it was on, and then it was kind enough to proclaim which draw it was in. The only thing it left out was what he likes to eat for breakfast and which colour of the rainbow he prefers.

It was like waking up on Christmas morning, rushing down the stairs only to find a bag of coal awaiting you and a note from santa informing you to behave better this year, it left me with numerous question marks floating above my head along with a sour face.

While I am inclined to prefer Morrowinds approach to finding specific locations and quest objectives, I do believe that both systems have merit. I particularly like the idea of a map marker to a static location, this technique would require the player to actually read or listen to the journal/NPC and would require some human ingenuity to get the job done.

» Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:12 pm

Video games today have a tendency to cater for the simple-minded dunce who relies on visual cues in order to complete quests and or find specific locations in the game world.
I'm talking about the infamous 'quest tracking' and spending 80% of the game looking at the bottom of your screen to check the compass to find your bearings. The good ol' days
of having to read your journal, comprehend the quest text, understand the actual goal of the set task ended with the last few generations of games.

A particularly crummy case of this would be in the recently released console game 'Fable 3' that actually IMPLEMENTED a golden trail for you, yes, that's right! You, the player have to
mindlessly follow the colourful golden sparkles like some kind of mouth-breathing drone in order to complete current tasks like quests. This is a particular bad case and it is the ultimate
example of spoon feeding, actually whenever I tend to think about the golden trail I can imagine Peter Molyneux (The game designer) spoon feeding me with a smug face whilst saying
aloud "Here comes the aeroplane".

"cough" but back on topic, what did you think of the quest tracking that was implemented in Oblivion? Would you prefer something similar to what was in Morrowind perhaps (ie. a
journal and a map)? Or are you a bread crumb kinda guy that likes video games to be straightforward (Thinking is work, I just wanna relax!)?

I'd have to say I would like something in-between. Yeah, Oblivion overdid it, but getting lost simply due to vague directions wasn't always fun in Morrowind either. Example: the quest in Bloodmoon where you need to lift a curse of eternal wakefulness off a former sea captain. The quest giver said "south-east of here, near the shore". What he didn't mention was that shore was all the way on the other side of the frickin' island, all the way past Raven Rock (which he didn't even say anything about). In situations like these UESP was a must if you didn't want run around in circles (which I did).
So what I would like is that the quest marker shows up on your map but not your compass, and only if the NPC knows the exact location. And it shouldn't show anything in interiors.