Well said, it gets really scary/sad when people do this over real life History/politics as well.

Personally I can sympathise with the Stormcloaks fighting for their god and beliefs, but I can also sympathise with the Emperor for having to sign the White Gold concordate - the major cause of the civil war, if the people of the Empire were exhausted from the great war and not willing to fight on I'm not sure what else could he do? I've seen Titus Mede called a coward often in these discussions, a man who led a fight back from the brink of destruction to a point where the enemy had to discuss a peace treaty rather than demand unconditional surrender from a total victory following a surprise attack.

Well, there is one fault with that line of thought: The White-Gold Concordat is almost identical, according to an Imperial http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Great_War_(book), to the terms the Empire was given before the war started as an ultimatum. It might as well have been a surrender, since it is only a treaty in name. The Thalmor got everything they wanted from the Empire. The Empire rejecting the original ultimatum accomplished nothing except wasting a lot of lives and having the Empire invaded, only to end up at the same place they were. Cowardice is not the word I'd use though, I'd put this on incompetence of the Imperial Leadership leading up to this point, who ignored warnings about the Thalmor fro the Blades.

Technically you could see it as such these days. There is a perception on the part of many Nords that Cyrodiil is interfering and imposing its will on Skyrim, and there is truth to that (though it's a more complicated picture in reality).

The word invasion goes too far, and the imperials are acting with local allies, but the fact is that Nords are being told what to do from someone sitting in the IC.

The poster talking about Germans vs. Romans is using an apt anology but apparently not very familiar with the lore. Don't get on his case about it, everyone started somewhere.

I can see RP reasons to support the imperials, but honestly from a meta-perspective I see no good reason to do so. Understanding reasons is not agreeing with them. I understand why the empire does what it does, but I think they're wrong and very wrong, and don't see the need to equivocate.

I agree it was a bad deal and the Thamor got most of what they wanted and that those in power in the Empire should not have ignored the warnings pre war, however they did ignore the warnings, (though I've not seen enough background material to understand why this was the case, a new weak dynasty facing internal politics perhaps?) In fact can we say for sure that if the Empire had prepared for war or even struck first that they would not have lost a key battle(s) and ended up in the same or a worse situation and faced with the same peace treaty? - going to war is always a bit of a gamble. There are many examples in real life of a mighty and powerful nation loosing to an underdog.

Whatever the reasons, war came, and to end the war I still feel the empire had no choice but to sign the treaty - I guess what I was trying to say in my post was I sympathise with them for signing the treaty and it was better than outright defeat and unconditional surrender, or a complete collapse/rebellion in Cyrodil caused by trying to continue the fight when the general populce had had enough.

But did the Nords have a problem with being ruled from the IC before the peace treaty? they considered themselves part of the Empire and were founding members of that empire? Now they are fighting among themselves because some no longer see themselves as part of the Empire but some of the population still want to be part of the Empire, The central government has then sent in a force to keep the peace. Surely the Rome anology is more like forces from the Eastern Roman empire being sent to the western Roman emipre to support the offical government of that region than Romans invading Germans?

Except again we come to the fact that the treaty was virtually identical to the one they were offered prior to the devastating conflict. It is galling to their detractors that the Empire put everyone through all that suffering for absolutely nothing - they still accepted the same terms. Both sides were devastated so the Aldmeri Dominion couldn't just continue the fighting either and they had to offer a treaty...but the same one? They could have both avoided a conflict and entered instead into a Cold War, building up forces and preparing for a decisive showdown.

Actually if you remember correctly, there was a dark elf in the Imperial Waterfront district in Oblivion that claimed he had just come from Solthseim. He informed the player that he fled due to the mine in Raven Rock closing up. So the Empire abandoning Raven Rock was not a newly added event, but I can definitely agree that the current Empire is headed for oblivion. (No pun intended)

A really great point well made, I do think that what they should have done to avoid/delay/prepare for the great war and what they did to end it are two slightly different issues though, and are we also using the benefit of hindsight here? specifically on ending the war, did the Empire have a good understanding of the Dominions ability to continue the fight when they finally agreed to the treaty? given the loss of the blades perhaps not and that even if they knew the Dominion was also on it's knees if your people are simply unwilling or unable to carry on fighting it's difficult make them do so whatever the bigger strategic picture, even Alexander the greats army got to the point of enough is enough.

I'd say so:

"Much of what is written in this book is pieced together from documents captured from the enemy during the war, interrogation of prisoners, and eyewitness accounts from surviving soldiers and Imperial officers."

K, now read this.

"In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all. During the spring, Aldmeri reinforcements gathered in southern Cyrodiil, and on 12th of Second Seed, they launched a massive assault on the Imperial City itself."

Now, there's no way survivors or eye witnesses could know the info in the second quote, so that means they HAD to have gotten the info DURING the war, as the book said they did, because that is the only time they'd have access to prisoners, and that's when they would have discovered their documents. This means the Empire KNEW how weak the Dominion was and they still caved.

So I think Mede caved because of the Council. Possibly from Thalmor interference. The other forces unavailable would be ones used for defense, IE unable to be used to continue the war.

Some did, according to Skyrim's Rule, which says that some were increasingly fed up with imperial dominance over Skyrim's politics. Even going back to the third era, you had the H?rme who sort of opposed the empire (they believed Potema and her son were the true heirs), though I'm glad they didn't amount to much because they were thugs.

Also a slight correction to people correcting the one poster: Nords didn't universally accept Tiber Septim's rule, either. He had to fight some of them, and take Pale Pass by treachery. That's the background of the book Ice and Chitin.

No, it still applies in the case of Germans vs. Romans too because the Romans always were able to make some Germanic tribes their allies, and the closest historical anologue to Ulfric that I can think of is Arminius who was a Germanic prince who became an officer in the Roman legion and then turned on them. It's just that in RL historical terms, things are a bit backwards in that the northern tribes didn't help found the empire, they became incorporated into the empire and eventually took it over from within and without. So Tamriel is sort of going in reverse of that.

I'm out of my depth on 'facts' here (will have to hang up the battleaxe and do a bit more reading) however I'm gonna guess the book was written after the war ? so still could have included information that contained the advantage hindsight not known until after the war had ended, I doubt they had an on the spot reporter getting eyewitness reports on the day of the battle. Also in war armies can fake their weaknesses to lure the enemy into making a mistake, so even if you had a document that said all reserves were commited or a capture soilder (spy)you might not as a general believe it, but I'm pretty sure you know a lot more about TES Lore and History than I do and I'm just guessing to be honest so I'll leave it there....

All that is explained in the quote. The book says they got info from prisoners of war and documents from them. They cant learn that info from eye witnesses, and the only time they'd have POW's from the dominion is before the WGC during the war. So it had to have been taken during the war. And they already lured them into a mistake with that treaty, but anyway, you'd think they'd at least try for a better treaty with this info instead of accepting the first treaty attempt exactly identical to the demands of surrender before the war.

You know Prince A'tor of the Crowns was probably younger than her and he proved that even youths could be both great military and political leaders. Some people are just natural leaders while others are only good at servitude. Elisif is the latter

Unless the Stormcloaks win which I guess would make the war go down in history as the Stormcloak revolution, or the Skyrim war of independence.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Bjartur

You do realize Skyrim had it's own Empire back in the First era? Oh and I'm guessing the Tsaesci and Kamal just happened to have landed in a deserted Skyrim.

Given the empire was nearly wiped out. The thalmor could've just finished them off if they had reserve forces.

The thalmor got arrogant and assumed the empire was beaten, and due to the hammerfell general disobeying Mede's orders, they had faulty intel on where the empire's forces were too. They paid dearly for it. Is there any point to keeping the treaty once you know all this? The elder council is known to have quite a bit of sway on the goings on of the empire. Dialogue from Mede and his generals seem to imply they want to fight. Tullius says politicians back home are giving him a hard time.

The only one the WGC is benefitting currently is the Thalmor, and the Empire is unwilling to end it.

Wow I never talked to her. That Ahtar is a cheerful guy.

Notice the torture racks in the Castle Dungeon dungeon. LOTS OF BLOOD ALL OVER THE PLACE!

That's something to think about, indeed.

Only if you actually think both sides have equal pros and cons, which I'm not sure how people come up with that conclusion.

yea but you will regret it afterwards