There was a lot of angst on the forums back then about various things - loss of skills, loss of armour slots, fast-travel, loss of crossbows etc. Lots of cries of dumbing down and oversimplification were being thrown around.

Personally I didn't mind the sound of the streamlining and stayed optimistic about the product.

That right there is how you know someone is just being irrational. "no atmosphere to speak of" Really? This makes your argument pretty transparent.

I also noticed a lot of folks who like MW and don't like OB praise SI. OB wasn't supposed to be some tripped out giant mushroom land. The atmosphere in OB is exactly what they set out to make it, and it is done quite well. Just because you don't prefer it, doesn't make it bad.

I've tried to play MW and it just lacks well, a lot of things. I've never gotten very far into it, but this "atmosphere" you speak of must come much later in the game because the starting town and the one after it (sorry don't recall the names) don't have much at all. If I had played it when it was released I probably would have felt different, but the game just didn't age well. That said, that is pretty much the definition of playing on nostalgia, remembering how great it was at the time and not being able to let go.

I feel sorry for folks like that, they ruined a great game for themselves in OB. I hope they don't do it again with Skyrim, though I won't hold my breath on that one.

So because he has a different view point and preference, all of a sudden he is irrational. if you -read- his post you'd see He's actually expecting Skyrim to be pretty good without the flutter of his expectations getting in the way.

:whistling:

Then the atmosphere they set out to make was bland, generic and devoid of any believable merit. The world feels dead and sterile. I played 150hours of Oblivion Pre-shivering isles. I didn't hop in for 12minutes and say "This is lame". I danced around every part of that game, turned over every rock looking for something unique. And all I found was a generic, and formulaic world filled with carbon copy filler NPC's and Sean Bean.

A lot of people read my posts and think I'm an Oblivion hater, quite the contrary, I really do love that game, that's why it's so easy to be hard on it. Because it wasn't a forgettable experience like Halo3. Everything wrong with it resonates a thousandfold more strongly than the entirety of a purely mediocre game, because of that contrast.

I loved all the screenshots, started building a good PC for that time with forum help , yes these forums (i lost my account duno how :nope:) , but when i started playing the game had crazy CTD issues , it didn't feel as magical as Morrowind , andi hated horses since i got the 1st one , i liked the game but not as much as i liked Morrowind :hugs:

I also remember the community strted modding pretty fast! , i believe my 1st fix came from a mod :cookie:

No, I pointed out quite clearly why, you just chose to ignore it and make up your own justification of what I wrote to try and paint it in a way you like.

I asked a question, didn't imply a thing, and he addressed your "rational" last page.


Discontinuing "argument"

I...I think I love you.

The way I see it previous posters have pointed out quite clearly and consciously what they thought the problem was.
I dont see anyone running on nostalgia.
People even have the presence of mind to realise that their expectations for Oblivion were over the top and that that added to their dissapointment.
I have seen rational and reasonable argumentation and valid conclusions.
A mere emotional shader in the sense of a feel of lack of atmosphere should not detract from that.
I have noticed on this forum a tendency for people to pop up and be vocal defenders of Oblivion on any thread that discusses this, or veers to this topic.
I believe that the constant guard dog mentality people are subject to when making a point about how their experiences differed in a negative way from Morrowind to Oblivion at least partially ensures that they are wary even saying such things, and to be doubly sure they are objective and honest when they do.

While defenders of both points of view seem equally vocal, it is also most surely a fact that making any poll that compares a Morrowind feature to an Oblivion one is sort of pointless, as people seem to mass vote 'Morrowind' every time.
That gives an insight into the difference between the vocal participants versus the silent majority.
Is this fair? I dont know.

I do know that on this forum, and on this thread in particular I see well formulated anolysis and a conscious attempt to compensate for psychological factors such as false expectations for Oblivion v. no expectations because Morrowind was their first game.
Therefore I do not agree with your assesment of it all just being nostalgia goggles.

Everytime they announce something I like, its usually accompanied with something I dont.

I understand where you're coming from, but there was some things which I personally found unique, like how some of the caves have this untold story, like walking in on a crime scene, how the goblins keep rats in fences as cattle (how you manage to keep a rat enclosed by fences I will never know), or things like the fact that unicorns don't attack you if you don't show aggression. I liked the little touches, but then again, Oblivion was my first TES game...well that's not true, it was the first I played seriously, so I didn't have a reference point.

Can't really compare development back then, considering updates were a little text post on the old TES website, if I'm not mistaken. BGS would just generally either release a new screen shot, or talk about Radiant AI or other features in game development. Personally, I was extremely excited for Oblivion, but more because I didn't know what to expect and not because of all the coverage. Skyrim is definitely getting a lot more coverage due to how the industry is changing, and I'm a lot more informed about what to expect from the game. As a result, I will have more realistic expectations and will definitely enjoy even the features BGS doesn't deliberately tell us.

As far as I know it's Todd's Dev Team. It was his team doing Oblivion and it's his team doing Skyrim. I'm sure he approved everything done in Oblivion and in Skyrim. I'm sure if he saw something he didn't like he would have said something and it would have changed.

The bottom line is that the "Buck" stops at the "Top". The "Top" is Todd. Just like any person running a company, the person at the top gets the blame or the praise.

I do think that Todd was in way over his head with Oblivion. I think he wanted to increase the TES fan base so much that he forgot what made Morrowind so great.

Now with Skyrim, I think he's got the 11-11-11 date stuck in his head and if he's not careful the game will be rushed and we'll have the same problems that we had with Oblivion.

I want Skyrim to succeed, I really do. There are some things I'm excited about with Skyrim, such as the radiant quests and things. There are some things I'm not excited about, the quest compass and the removal of alot things that were in previous TES games.

The success or the failure of Skyrim will rest at Todd's feet.

Yeah, and I even say that Oblivion had these rare moments where it looks like they world builders were putting all those interesting details in, but they got cut short. The main difference is that the details were woven into the very fabric of Morrowind, where in Oblivion, the details were flashy patches applied, but overall, not cohesive in the big picture.


Just a broad example in Morrowind, the ability to define a dungeon by the randomized loot the area generates. A particular cave for example, generates items such as Dwemer Artifacts, Skooma and Moon Suguar. Various imported Alcohols. Seeing that just at face value doesn't say much, but the threads connect through the rest of the game, exploring dialog and lore reveals that the trade of Dwemer Artifacts is illegal, as is untaxed alcohol trade. You can then infer that the caves that are holding these items, are smuggler hideouts. That's how Morrowind creates it's atmosphere. A seemingly benign feature like "Randomized loot" Is used to relay information to the player.

You can walk into a Daedric Shrine, and see the offerings the devotees leave their patrons. You get to experience how the Commona Tong is using the Fighter's Guild to strongarm the Thieves guild out of Vvardenfell. Details like Great house Hlaalu's progressiveness are shown to the player by the fact that an Imperial has risen to one of the highest seats of power, while conversely, the conservative Redoran are dominated by Dunmer and the occasional Redguard, and merely the architecture of the Telvani Wizard-towers suggest a xenophobic society of Elitists. These are but a handful of the examples I can come up with.



I'm not actually sure how much creative and design input Todd actually has in his position. Not all developers are the same, and if anything, Bethesda is actually a very unorthodox studio compared to the assembly-line factories of some of the EA and Activision sweatshops.

I just think, considering that his position has been the same for Morrowind, Oblivion, and Now Skyrim, people are attributing a lot more problems directly to him, than is reasonable. But Morrowind and Oblivion both had the same Lead Designer as well (Who is now doing some other thing with another Todd, Todd McFarlane of Spawn renown).

That's why I just think Oblivion was rushed to meet that Xbox360 Launch window.

The promotions for Oblivion had me excited, and when the game finally came out, I found that it matched its marketing well. Things that marketing had me disappointed about -- such as the removal or streamlining of skills -- were there. Things that marketing had me happy about -- such as Radiant AI and lush plant life and physics -- were there. My knowledge of Elder Scrolls lore was pretty limited, so I had no reaction to Cyrodiil not being jungle. From what I saw of Imperials and their architecture in Morrowind, I would not have figured Cyrodiil to be jungle.

I found this clip of Oblivion's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjbx6-KQoRg on NPCs and AI. It's quite interesting to compare with the actual game! Notice how the NPCs welcome each other by name. That immediately makes it seem like they actually know each. I wish those little touches had made the final cut and I hope they will in Skyrim.

More importantly, note the Dark Elf's voice. WHAT HAPPENED TO THAT?!

I was exicited and believed that the devs would do what improved the game most. I was disapointed because substantial improvements were minimal and the focus seemed to be on the astetic since they wanted to deal more with complaints about graphics and other nonsense.

EDIT: that first part sound familiar, in realation to some people on the forums now...

Hehe yeah, they really changed direction with the Dark Elf voice in the final game. He sounded very much like an Argonian to me.

I think part of it is the belief/view that aside from Vivec and Mournhold, the other 'cities' in MW were mostly towns.

Personally, I really liked MW, and felt that Oblivion 'took more away' from the game franchise than it added. With Skyrim, it sounds like they are adding quite a bit of 'new', so hopeful it won't disappoint as much. Not to suggest that I didn't enjoy Oblivion [I did], I just really enjoyed Morrowind more.

[edit / add]
As a bit of reference, any folks from the Pre-MW age want to chime in as well? I know a lot of people where similarly disappointed with MW as contrasted to Daggerfall.

Daggerfall had more content than you could shake a stick at, just as the people say Oblivion to Morrowind was a reduction in content, the same can be said Daggerfall to Morrowind is a reduction in content. and you can bet people will say Oblivion to Skyrim svcked, for some reason or another.



the heck is up with this auto sensor changing my posts........there aren't any swear words.......

Simple:
You don t expect to be on a capital of an empire and hit a city wall after 20 paces in any direction.
For the gods sake Rome had 33 millions citizens, before Rome reached it might a mere capital of a celtic tribe 100 years BC, had 1 millions habitant on a 25 Km square walled surface.
Oblivion imperial city would be nothing but a small walled burgh on medieval times, not even space for 200 denizens. Its positively pathetic.

I was slightly disappointed because no more new news from the CIVIL WAR...

How it will be, it's just Solitude vs. Windhelm?

Will we see random encounters with the 2 factions fighting each other? Will we see great battles or just skirmishes fights?

Will be possible to take sides?...

Morrowind was not very big. West side of morrowind few imperial towns, house redoran. East side house telvanni. South side vivec and ebonheart. Of course there are a bunch of towns, caves, burials and daedric ruins. That is pretty much it. Morrowind is not much more bigger then oblivion. There are a lot of quests in morrowind but a good deal of them are lame. "can you go deliver this note across town for me"? You deliver the note and get 75 gold pieces same crap with escort quests. Oblivion with oscuros overhaul makes oblivion a better game then morrowind. Daggerfall omg a lot of people say this game has massive amount of content. Have they ever played it? majority of your gameplay in daggerfall, you spend your time navigating incredibly confusing narrow corridors in randomly generated dungeons. Once you been to 5 dungeons you basically been to them all and seen all the game has to offer in content. In 1994 daggerfall was amazing, today's standards it is poor, buy yourself a dungeon crawling game for PSP or DS instead.