Would you honestly say that Morrowind is still the best of the Elder Scrolls series? I ask because that game has been tainted by nostalgic goggles. Many that have grown up on TES 3 generally bash the hell out of both Oblivion and Skyrim to no end. While at the same time many that started with TES with Oblivion (or earlier on with Daggerfall) tend to have a much more critical view of the game. And I think that's where the main difference and point of contention lies. Whether TES has truly been "dumbed down" or not seems to be based on strong preconceived biases and deep nostalgia for the retro RPG style of games rather than a standard that is more objective and fair. And for the record I have yet to play or purchase Morrowind for myself.

So once again for those who did not start with TES 3: Morrowind, does it still stand the test of time and pawn all other games? If so then please explain why or why not.

This should end well.

I started with oblivion and still can't get into morrowind.

I think Oblivion and Morrowind are tied as the best only because Oblivion has some of the best quest I have ever played. and yes Oblivion was my first TES than Skyrim than Morrowind.

I'm also 17 and hated RPG until Oblivion. I like action when I was 12 and Oblivion had that for me. As I get older I have come to appriate slower paced games like Morrowind and Civilization. My favourite games are UT1999, AOE II and Ratchet & Clank so you could say I like fast paced game.

I hope this thread gets hijacked by people who started with Daggerfall and consider it the best TES game to date.

Nah. Morrowind has its ups but it also has its downs. A good game by all means but not the infallible Second Coming as many (most?) people make it look like.

But this thread will soon be stormed by the fanboiz so I'll show myself out.

Different strokes for different boats.

Once you know the game, it's dumbed down. I only played Morrowind for a few hours but had their system down pretty good and found it easy. Whether it's dice or action, it's still an RPG.

I started with Oblivion, and loved it. Moved to Skyrim, liked it even more than Oblivion. Played Morrowing, I liked it. I hated the combat, but hey, it was revolutionizing for it's time.

Think it probably caters to different people.

For example, I started with morrowind and still prefer it over oblivion(And prefer skyrim over oblivion)

But I started fallout with FO3, and I much prefer NV over it.

I prefer the culture, and world building that went into making Morrowind a realistic venue. When Oblivion came around there was little to no culture to be found. Gone were the politickal machinations of the elder council, there was no county rivalries, and the most you got was offhanded remarks towards one group or the other. Skyrim brought culture back into play but it still seemed a little watered down compared to morrowind.

If I want to get involved in the politics or world of morrowind, I can join one of the three great political houses on the island, I could join the temple and promote the local tribunal religion, or I could get involved with the Cult and promote the Empire's one true faith. Or perhaps I'd join with the peacekeeping legionary forces and keep the local province in line. If there was an aspect of the game you wanted to get involved in, you could. When I got to Oblivion, all that was available were four guilds. Religion, politics, and military were completely cut off. Skyrim let you get involved a little more by making some parts specialized to skyrim's culture(Companions, Bard's College) and it had the civil war giving you a small bit of taste of religion/politics/military, but it was a bit lacking in the end.

So if you're going into morrowind looking for great gameplay, you'll probably be disappointed(I don't mind the combat, but I can see how others might not care for it) If you're going into it looking for a story or a world to check out, you'll probably be pleasantly surprised.

How about people that started with Oblivion, but think Daggerfall is the best one to date? :3

It's quite sad when I look at Daggerfall, then look and see how much Morrowind stripped away. I actually see Morrowind as one of the poorest TES games, with Oblivion being kind of a "return to form" (it didn't bring back everything that was lost, and it did have its share of problems, but it does improve a number of things Morrowind skimped out on that Daggerfall had).

I started with Morrowind and think it is over rated as far as this forum goes. it was a good game but not particularly more so than Oblivion or Skyrim.

I haven't played Morrowind, but it was watching an LP on Youtube that introduced me to The Elder Scrolls series.

Now, I want to play Morrowind, and I've no doubt that I'll enjoy it. Try looking at each TES game as something different, something separate, something fresh , and not something to be compared with one another.

Hope that helped.

Interesting considering that you're the first TES player I know that started with Morrowind but actually thinks its worse than the successive games. Any particular reason why you prefer Oblivion over it?

I'll bite. I felt that Arena was a below average game, but that Daggerfall was the potentially greatest game I'd played, except for the bugs, and the bugs, and the bugs. Morrowind came through; it had much of the gameplay and freedom of Daggerfall, but was solid and playable (once it was patched and expanded.)

I'm older than most of the posters around here, so I came up with a tradition of rich, complex, often difficult games. Games were supposed to be challenging; challenge was fun. Choices had consequences, and some "wrong choices" were game-breaking. "Game Over. Better Luck Next Time."

In older games, the stories weren't thrown at you in the first hour or two. They unfolded gradually, a hint at a time. You never really knew what you were getting into. Morrowind follows that tradition. It doesn't hold your hand, and it doesn't throw you into the middle of an urgent story-line. It has a good story, but that story doesn't get in the way of you role-playing your character as you see fit, even to the point of breaking the main quest.

The folks who throw out the "Nostalgia Goggles" argument don't know what they're talking about. A good game doesn't stop being a good game just because it's old, or because it has simpler graphics and animation, or because the combat functions in a way that isn't done nowadays. People are still playing the game...still buying the game...because it's a good game.

I'd suggest that today's game players are spoiled. They wear "New Game Goggles" that require them to see pseudo-realistic graphics, quick-twitch combat, quest-pointers, and they need to have the story played out for them, preferably in live-action voiced cut-scenes, because that's what they've come to expect. And, as a result, they are incapable of enjoying the older graphically-simple but gameplay-rich games.

I'm not going to proclaim Morrowind "the greatest," simply because I am aware that things like that are largely taste, and because I can see greatness in the later games as well. I'm just here to say that the OP's premise is distorted by another kind of "Goggles," and the whole idea of trying to pit one game against another in some weird competition of "betterness" is silly and unnecessary.

I started with Skyrim. I think Morrowind is the best... but Skyrim and Oblivion aren't far behind.

The reasons why I think Morrowind is the best is...

* The main quest. It's like playing a novel, I mean, a real novel. Seriously, it's better than many books I've read. And I'm PICKY with books. Oblivion's main quest had much potential with the revolution theme but didn't pull it off as well. Skyrim's main quest feels very much like cheap fantasy. It gets saved by TES lore... the unique take on dragons, the dragon cult, and the Thu'um.

* The "no handholding".

* No forced quests. (same as Oblivion, on whole. There are a few forced ones like Kvatch.)

* The politics. Skyrim's civil war also offers some in that regard though.

* The leveling system has the same complexity as Oblivion's but is easier to get into. On whole, gameplay is complex but fairly easy to get into... While Oblivion's is complex, and Skyrim's is easy.

* Dunmer culture... This is partly due to personal taste. It just appeals to me the most. The guards are also the coolest. Skyrim also offers much in the cultural aspect though.

* Largest variety of weapons, and most customization when it comes to outfits.

* The choice and consequence thing...

* Like in Oblivion, there's barter and a reputation system, and topics instead of dialogue choices - basically the NPC interaction is better in Oblivion and Morrowind than in Skyrim, from a roleplay perspcetive. But in Morrowind there's no awful persuasion minigame.

* Main quest is not forced upon you at the start, and the intro is short, and the game basically tells me "do what you want". It is ruined a bit by the introduction lines though, with the gendering of the prisoner and Azura calling "him" chosen.

* There's less of level scaling, but there's some of it. Which is perfect.

There are things in Oblivion and Skyrim that I like more than Morrowind, but on whole I like Morrowind the most. But as I said, it wins by a very small margin.

Never said it was worse lol. Tpo me they are all pretty much even because they all do certain things really good and certain things really pretty crappy, like for instance one thing I don't like about morrowind would be going back to mostly text with very little voiced dialog. Also everyone stayed more or less in the same spot and even without quest arrows it really wasn't that hard to find people (places are a different story though lol) since they rarely moved. Morrowind had cooler glitches though and that spell making system was more fun to break and make super powerful characters with lol.

Though I do also think that both Oblivion and Skyrim had more interesting main quests and antagonists. Alduin was a pretty good villian and I liked the minor lore retcons, and Mankar Camoran I found very interesting. Dagoth Ur to me always has and always will simply be 'that mostly naked elf in the ugly mask." haha

I started with Oblivion in 2010, bought Skyrim in 2011 and was given a first-edition copy of Morrowind and its expansions for Christmas last December.

My impressions of Morrowind are not as informed as my impressions of the other two games, as I've only played it about 100 hours so far. But I think it's a very good game. All three of the Elder Scrolls games I've played have their weak points and Morrowind is no exception. What it lacks in visual complexity it makes up for with the complexity of its stories and gameplay.

I started with fallout 3 went to oblivion then went to fonv and then skyrim. After playing fonv, I was disappointed in skyrim. A good game non the less but I guess I was expecting them to learn more from fonv and was expecting great story, c&c, and an awesome world to explore. After fighting with the morrowinites, I decided to try it out and see what all the praise was for. After I slapped on morrowind graphics overhaul, I dug right in and was floored with my first visuals coming off the boat.
The game had everything I wanted, incredible story, a great place to explore, culture, and c&c. As someone who plays tabletop pathfinder, the combat is right up my alley and since I usually deal with miniatures and/or imagination, it didnt take me no time to realize that the only missing was a dodge animation. But hey totally forgivable in my book seeing what it actually focuses on.

So yes, to me morrowind ia the greatest, but its just strictly imo. Its not the right answer for everybody and everybody has a right to disagree. But I sure do love me some morrowind

Agree with Cecliff2 here. A lot more polish to Oblivion than MW but the culture and politics of MW was so much more interesting and involved IMO. Also agree that Skyrim was better than Oblivion. DF had quantity but outside the MQ there was no depth, just endless randomness which got very boring.

I started on Oblivion, but I can see what all the Morrowind Sympathizers mean.

I've played it, and while it didn't last long, I probably would have loved that game if I played it in the right generation. Right now the Graphics just look too silly to me

I agree with them, from the standpoint of how much content there was in Morrowind, that the Series is in a way being Simplified

Sadly, it's the presentation that kills it for me. I really hate Morrowind's dialog system, which is what makes it hard for me to invest in the story.

Daggerfall has these matched or beat. There's a reason the Illiac Bay is known for its political instability. Daggerfall not only forces very few quests on you, but most of them can be failed (even the main quest!) on purpose or accident.. which also plays into the no hand-holding bit. No quest markers, insanely large dungeons, time limits, weighted gold, etc.

I actually say Skyrim has the best leveling system. You can't improve your one-handed weapon use by selecting relevant attributes you haven't trained (or trained via a different skill), you don't have to worry about getting the early jump on raising Endurance, and other such things. Morrowind's and Oblivion's is too metagamey and micro-managing, and one of the mods I most like is (n)GCD, or something similar, which make attributes raise and lower automatically based on your skills.

Culture is one thing Morrowind designed well, yes. However, the xenophobia that's so culturally ingrained is also it's undoing... it's difficult to suspend my disbelief when I'm talked to as an outsider, yet I have no problems raising in the ranks to be head of various Dunmeri institutions, even be seen as a messiah of sorts after being treated as dirt. Not only can I be an Argonian with every choice available to me as if I were a Dunmer, I can also get to a high position in House Redoran, and even the Temple itself after offing their gods and going completely against their doctrine with regards to the Nerevarine. An Argonian, who culturally speaking, is nothing better than a slave, can achieve all that with no more difficulty than a Dunmer.

Daggerfall wins with outfit customization. It says something when it gives you 6 ways to wear the same cloak. Morrowind may have more armor slots, but I think the number of accessory slots Daggerfall has makes up for it.

There actually aren't that many in Morrowind. There are some consequences, sure, but most choices were "which Great House do you want to join?" and "which magic-oriented group do you want to join?". They didn't really involve a lot of thought, as it's usually something decided on based on your character's design.

Then again, no TES game has really been very good at this. Daggerfall's reputation system had potential, but it was pretty buggy and easy to exploit with a couple quests.

Oblivion has the best dialog system, IMO. The voice acting and number of topics available to each NPC (and how the topics available depended on the town and region) made it feel like you were actually talking to a person without being bogged down. Morrowind NPCs have too many topics, most of them identical to others with maybe a name or rank replaced. "I'm name, a rank of faction." Oblivion had a unique introduction for most townsfolk. Morrowind's dialog often felt stilted, written oddly to make sure the wiki-like linking system would work. In Oblivion, the topic list size didn't make it difficult to find a new entry that was added, and topics you've already talked about would be dimmed making finding it even easier. That helped make the dialog come out more natural sounding. It's biggest problem is the lack of variety in the character voices.

Daggerfall's opening dungeon still accomplishes its goal of showing just how unforgiving and ruthless the game can be. It purposely spawns an enemy near the start that a good number of characters won't be equipped to deal with (literally; imps require steel weapons or better to hurt, the dungeon has two of them, and depending on your character creation choices, you may not have any steel weapons and you're not guaranteed to find any in the dungeon). A seasoned player can zip through it in less than a minute.

Daggerfall's character creation is annoyingly long, though, especially if you're doing a custom class. That said, there's a lot of interesting (and sometimes exploitative) things you can do with its Advantages and Disadvantages system, more-so than all TES games since, combined (birthsigns and classes are cheap imitations of Daggerfall's Advantages and Disadvantages).

Daggerfall has a good mix too, I think. It's entirely possible to run into dungeons that have enemies that are too difficult to handle, making you fail quests. But things do get harder and more rewarding as you go on.

Eh, what are you getting at? Other than saying YOU'RE WRONG ...? You might as well have written that. Saves space.

I haven't played Daggerfall, so I can't use it as a comparison. I might, not sure if I will. I have a problem with playing in first person. And what good is having 6 ways to wear a cloak if you can't see your character?

I also don't understand why you bring up some of the things such as dialogue in oblivion. Those are points that I agree with, but didn't bring it up because the topic is "why Morrowind is the best", not "what is better with Oblivion". I also said that I like some things in Skyrim and Oblivion better than in Morrowind.

As for the leveling system, I prefer Morrowind's partly because in Skyrim, all skills contribute to leveling. And with how the mercantile system works, that means every time I go shopping, it contributes to my leveling! Among other things. I also in fact like the pick and choose. Mods that "hide" the leveling from me as a player, and makes it automatic, are not to my taste. A lot of which game one prefers is a matter of taste, so I don't see why it's so important to you to dismiss every point on my list.

The OP asked if anyone who started with another game still prefers Morrowind, and if so, why. I replied because I fit the description. I also replied because I want to show that liking Morrwowind the most is

1) not a "nostalgia" thing, and

2) not the same as hating the other games.

... things that Morrowind lovers are often accused of.

Just giving my experience. Saying "you're wrong" doesn't really add anything to the conversation, as it doesn't bring up any points that can be discussed.

I see my character plenty when I go into my inventory. Granted, it would be nice to occasionally admire him in third person (I always play in first-person as I feel less attached to my character in third-person, but sometimes it's nice to get a nice in-world look), but Daggerfall couldn't really do that anyway due to technological limitations of the day.

Actually, the topic is, "if you didn't start with Morrowind, do you still think it's the best TES game". I didn't start with Morrowind (it was Oblivion for me), and I answered that no, I don't think it's the best TES game, and gave reasons where and why I think the other games in the series generally did better in areas where Morrowind usually gets praised.

That's why I like Skyrim's, actually. Using skills makes you get better at them, and getting better at skills contributes to your level. It closed the major-as-minor exploit, it no longer allows you to get the benefits of a skill without the consequences of using it, and it just plain makes more sense.

This problem mainly comes down to the lack of a bartering system. You always buy or sell something at a specific price, you can't choose to haggle more for bigger gains (at the risk of lowering their disposition) or choose to not haggle at all. I agree it would've been nice to be able to buy and sell stuff without it affecting my speechcraft skill, thus my character level, as long as I got appropriately poor prices.

So why choose to single out my post and dismiss every point instead of just writing your own? (Which you did also). Did it annoy you specifically?

I didn't start with Morrowind (Daggerfall here) and I can't really say Morrowind is the best game in the series, though I have many fond memories and probably more game time logged playing it than any other TES title. In fact, I would go so far as to say I can't possibly name a 'best' TES but only which one I find to be the worst. But that's a different subject altogether.