Yeah, to make my Nord Warrior join the College to fight Alduin is stupid. I ended up no clipping myself through the gate. I had no regrets.
Same with the one in Riften. Most players don't realise the second way to find Esbern and is forced to join the Thieves Guild.

You're raging because your journal will have an unfinished quest of 'speak to..' for the Winterhold college? Really?

Here's a tip, if you're using shouts you're not a pure warrior at all; shouts are magic. Therefore it is literally impossible to complete the MQ without using magic.

I never claimed it was vital, just making an observation. I still play the game just fine, with all my different characters.



Not at all, as someone earlier said why can't the quest simply say, "Find a way to." Instead of "Get information from x?" Because when you talk to X and you don't agree to do what he says you're just left hanging. I 'm not saying the game should then suddenly give you an alternate quest marker, but from the initial point make it clear there was more than one way to go about it.



I didn't say the DB gives you the contract, see the post right above yours. If in real life I wanted to destroy an organization, I wouldn't do so by following up on someone who wants to take part in that organization by killing someone who is innocent. Especially if that someone making the decision over life and death were a child. I didn't say anything about it being unfair, but it doesn't make sense that the guard can't just simply give you the quest. How am I not RPing my character if I would much rather him maintain his streak of not killing innocent people at the behest of a child in order to do something he percieves as good like destroying the organizaion? The reason I gave the DB example in the first place was to show that there is at least one instance in the game where you have only one option to get to a certain outcome, so there's no reason that other people would assume any different about other quests that seem exactly like that as well.

Hmmm, I didn't ask to join, I asked for entry as the Dragonborn to obtain knowledge.. thats exactly what the quest asks you to do. Nobody makes you follow up with the first college quest.

Because that wouldn't make sense?

Welcome to the world of adventure games. Sadly, that's exactly what Skyrim is. It offers a predetermined conversation option with no choice in developing a character personality, putting a finger in each nostril and leading the way.

They've got the open world concept down quite well, now they need to work on their writing and turn the series from an adventure game into a role playing game.

The guard tells you he has been trying to destroy the brotherhood for years. If I happen to run into him while I'm exploring how does it not make sense that he might ask for help? It's make no less sense than someone who has just met you entrusting you with important letters for delivery, etc. It would be a viable alternative to killing someone because a child tells you they're a bad person. You're almost making it into a joke to prove I'm not making a viable complaint. It's not a big deal, but why would it hurt if I ran into that guard exploring he mentions what he's doing, or I overhear it and offer to help, like the other 2039820984 quests that can be started that way, and then you get to figure out how to enter the sanctuary, etc? There's no reason that's not viable.

Though that last part you could be correct about. It might be me unconsciously applying knowledge to a character that shouldn't have it. I never really thought about how little they'de ever even know about them. But still, it doesn't mean that there can't be alternative ways of accepting the quest. Many other quests are accepting on little to no more knowledge than overhearing someone arguing about it.

Oh hey guard, I want to destroy the Dark Brotherhood, you wouldn't happen to have any information that could help me with this, would you?

The actual quest that authorities the destruction is awfully convenient and simplistic as is, it wouldn't be any better by just having a guard give it to you. I think it would make much more sense, at a certain point in your promotion through the Legion/Stormcloaks, for the relevant authority to charge you with taking out one of the criminal organizations, either Thieves Guild or DB.

But people would probably complain about that to. "The game is forcing me to destroy a faction to get to the top of another faction, that isn't what I want"

But anyway, until the DB actually show themselves to you why would you need to suspect their organization is around in any real way, beyond being proactive or bringing IRL knowledge of the quests into it?

Have to agree here--enjoying the quest as a Warrior and now I have to become a mage and get a magic quest so that a mage can open the last dungeon for me---that is just wrong.

And that would be the kind of alternative I'm talking about, I never said the guard had to hand you the damn key. You were the one who kept making that joke. There's no reason the guard couldn't give you a set of quests that only explain who the hell the DB even is, but let you find out how to get in there on your own. Actually, even the way that's there now could have done more in the way of explanation and work to get in. The guard does just hand you the key once you get back.

You would know they exist because not only does the innkeeper talk about the ritual, but there's books in-game, and guards all over the town that mention it. Not to mention there's a conversation going on right outside the boy's house specifically about the organization. You're not completely in the dark. I'm saying there's no reason there can't be an alternative to . That's it.

It wouldn't be especially off. It wouldn't be especially great, because I thought initially he was just a bit obsessive. Aren't the DB nearly extinct my character thought?



Actually I think it would make much more sense to accept the kids offer, do some snooping to see if he was right, and then have an option on how to proceed. If the bad person is a bad person or not (which I did as best I could with what the game gave me).



I still think a quest that brings them into the light makes the most sense (which we got). If the guard has been hunting them for years and he had the knowledge to take them down (or knew who did) then it would make sense for him to have done it already. If not then you shouldn't be able to magically bring his years long quest to a close. If he wants me to look into it fine, but the DB should be hard to spot. Impossible even. So the neatest solution, to me at least, is to get them to come to you - I liked you weren't entirely in control. You do the kids quest, you still don't need to believe the DB is even around then *whack* your in the shack just rolling with the punches and playing it by ear.

But but but, you can get into the college without being a mage or using a spell. Try reading the dialogue, you can show the girl on the front your Thu'um and she'll let you in because you are a special circumstance. The only reason yuo are going to the college in the main quest is because you are tapping their knowledge on a certain item.

It's hardly game breaking to have a quest in your journal, unless you have OCD and unable to ignore it being there.

You 100% don't have to do what Brynjolf asks in Riften. Just go into the ratway on your own.

Yes, if to destroy them had as much going on as to join then, it would be a lot of fun. I don't want them to just hand it to me, but I want more alternatives to the way to get it started. There should be other wyas to have them come to you, or take notice of you, especially if there's a set of quests where you're sent to investigate them or something.

I never had to join the college. ??? I was doing so anyways on my first character, but the other ones didn't have to. What are you talking about?

I think, that the game indeed has freedom in terms of to play or not to play. This is not real freedom, though, because we all bought the game to play. However, if one chooses to play, then there is not so much choice there. Sometimes TEXT matters much more than voice or graphics. That is why many people love Morrowind, and less Oblivion and even less Skyrim. Ideally, there should be at least 6 variants of answers - good and evil, fighter, mage or rogue types, plus romance, love and hate. Unfortunately, the Elder Scrolls tend to increase the age limit, while decreasing intellectual level.

There is an alternative to doing this that I discovered - go into the warrens and interrogate the bartender at the Ragged Flagon.

Do you consider getting past a door by telling a lady you are Dragonborn as joining the college?

It's not a big deal. Your just gaining entrance. If I walked into to Harvard but worked at McDonalds, I wouldn't be joining their school. Just visiting.

Skyrim is the most popular TES game. The MQ just helps show new people that their is a College and a Thieves guild. I'm sure a ton of people wouldn't have known these factions if they weren't introduced in the MQ.

I swear people are mindlessly arguing without reading the preceading posts.

On page 2/3 i think, someone pointed out that you could avoid the thieves guild all together by either:

A: Finding Esbern yourself
B: declining the crime, and talking to people around the town (in this case the tavern keeper). Now im sorry but if i arrived in a city and wanted to find someone, id ask people about it, which is what you can do.. just because it doesnt have a damn arrow above their head. Which btw.. is worse than the subject of this thread.


Now.. as far as the college is concerned.

There are a few workarounds:

A: use your shout and dont talk to the woman inside the college, boom.. no winterhold start
B: Kill her...the gates open.
C: There is an expert locked door at the base of the college, you can access the dormitories from there.7
D: there is a mage in the tavern who will let you through the gates if you ignore the woman at the bridge.

The spells she requires are all different costs, however the candlelight is the cheapest, anyone can do it as it is <100 magicka.
Im sure there are more ways, these are simply the ones ive found.

Again, you people dont look, you just follow the arrows.

I don't see this as pushing... if I were setting out upon a goal and I had to pretend I had an interest in a guild to fulfill that goal, I would pretend I had an interest in that guild. All you have to do is show off a shout to get in; you are not getting into a break-neck paced questline here unless you follow through with it, which you don't have to (so the sense of urgency should not break your immersion). If your issue is quests getting stuck in your journal, then I guess I can't help you... but there are a lot of quests that can get stuck in your journal if you just talk to random people or are encountered by a Daedra Lord, for example. Doesn't mean you have to do them. Just do other quests and they'll wind up at the bottom of the list.

You don't have to join. I do the spell, get inside, and talk to enthir (i know thats who u r talking about). Although, when I did the main quest, he was in the inn back at winderhold, it was NOT in the college.



QFT

If you don't like the game, then why play it? And if you're not playing it, why are you on these forums? Its not Beths fault you have 1 measly line of text in your journal, only 2 words long even. Its called ignorance or don't do the MQ.

That's what happens to people who just follow the arrow. Your loss :shrug:

I almost started the daedric (sp?) questline. The very first quest was not to my liking - had to find an innocent person (or a companion) and lead him/her to a specific place and kill him, so I refused to do it and started with the second quest. I don't RP, but that was a bit much for me.

I agree with you to a certain degree and I'm sure the OP and others in this thread do too. But you're missing a slight turn here that ppl tend to react to. If the quest is part of the main quest it becomes hard to ignore it. If the quest starts and gets added in your journal, sure you can ignore it, but some enjoy keeping a clean journal/questlogg. What better way to ignore a quest then to delete it?