Like I said, and you quoted me, win it in a contest.

But that's the same as forcing you to do that, too

The point is that the quest is there. The means you have to complete it...sure, great, have a dozen choices. But you're still presented with a dozen forced ways. is it better? Hell yes. But they are all scripted and they are all pre-set and you have to do it.

refusing bryn and talking to the tavernkeep works.
no thieves guild quest started, no thieves guild joined, no crime commited.


as for the mages guild:

Of course Im not going to give examples.
How silly do you think I am?
Next youll be wanting me to tell you how to put on pants or teach you how to tie shoelaces.
The blindingly obvious should not have to be explained, and when I am asked to do so I just look at people funny.

The fact is that the game has a linear setup that actively encourages you to join all guilds, and this is the wrong approach for an open world RPG.
There should be freedom of movement within the game, and factions should be able to be ignored without detriment to completing any other faction quest or main quest.
Its bad enough that the factions are all islands within the game that do not interact with each other or the world in any way, now we are practically shoe horned into joining them all each playthrough.

Now when it comes to dragon masks, shouts and the like it is a whole other matter but not when it comes to how you actually want your characters story to pan out.

Unacceptable indeed!

Im so sorry man. Thats just awful. I hope there's people in your life who care about you that can help guide you through this.

I'll be praying for you.

I find that there are few irritants in this game, and being forced to have unwanted quests in my journal is one of them. I didn't mind joining the college so much as I didn't intend to finish the quest line. If they would let me delete a quest, or file it in a place that didn't distract me from the ones I'm actively working on, it would be a moot issue for me. It's the quest journal causing the problem for me... not the story. I just play the "I sure duped those stupid wizards" character when I had to join their college.

The DB is a good example, how does my good character destroy the brotherhood if they don't first kill someone (who admittedly might deserve it, but that's not a good reason) for them?

Isn't it, though? The name Dragonborn and Stormcloaks sounds like something in a 6th grade medieval fantasy story.

At least in TESIII, they made interesting and unique sounding names, like Neravarine, House Hlaalu, Redoran & Telvanni, Dagoth Ur, etc... Dhovakhiin is interesting and unique, but not Dragonborn. I absolutely agree that it's pretty gay and corny sounding. oh well. I'm sure people like you and me are in the minority of gamers any ways so what do our opinions matter.

That is bad, but not as bad as this.


Finally are people starting to notice that Skyrim is not that amazing as everyone think it is.


Especially if you are some goodie-two-shoes Paladin.

But that whole Thieves Guild introduction quest is pure crap.
Here I am with my first character who is a good guy and everything, and then BAM... some twit comes to me and tells me that he sees that I have never earned my coin honestly?
WTF?
I barely have few Septims in my pocket and have never even took a candy from a baby!
That guy coming to me like that is a huge design fail, and that fail is only increased with the fact that I can report him to the guards or do anything like that.
How come that there is a quest for...

The game has more holes than a Swiss cheese after execution by shooting... with a minigun! >_>


Maybe, but there is still too many bad things, and game is not that amazing at all.


http://static.esportsea.com/global/images/teams/40882.jpg


Not only among gamer, but also in the world.
People today are stupid and shallow.
If there was a way to switch Skyrim's graphics and combat with that of Morrowind, you would see how all the current Skyrim fan-boys/girls would claim that Morrowind is a better game.

Technically, it's Bethesda's game.

Totally agree. I wouldn't call this sloppy design but it's definitely bad. I've got a little list of all the factions the game tries to force you into to do unrelated things, it happens all the time in this damn game.

Now my big meaty warrior gets guards saying "You're the one from the college, heard about you.." Oh yeah what'd you hear? Because all I did was walk inside, talk to one guy, and walk out.

It is a CRPG, there are always going to be limits (for the time being, the world just can't include them as much as PnP).

Spoiler, maybe.




That one makes sense however. The only reason you get a shot at the DB (joining or destroying) is because you attract their attention by stealing one of their kills which brings them into the open. It is good of RPGs to give the player as many options as possible, but really? I don't want to do this action but I still want access to whatever is available if I did the action. I should be allowed to.

Yeah, maybe, but it isn't a big gripe for me as I accept some limitations. If they gave you that they should also have to give everyone else there quest related wish list.

Plus you are kind of metagaming. You know the available quests and how to get them, your character, in game, doesn't. You are playing a good character who wouldn't assassinate somebody but if he doesn't assassinate that somebody you don't get to interact with the DB etc. How terribly unfair? Not really.

We can come up with stories and ideas about why he might have a chance to go after the DB, but there isn't much story reason in the game as is for your character to take down the DB without going through with the assassination because they shouldn't really know about the uber-secret hide out and presence of all these high level assassins in Skyrim without the high level assassins revealing themselves first (and the actual act of destroying the DB is terribly convenient and a bit contrived as is).

Well the guards start treating you like a mage. I know to you that probably doesn't matter, but for other people it's an immersion breaker when stuff that doesn't make sense starts happening around you.

I can't hunt on my warrior, because if my sneak skill gets high enough, the guards start calling me a sneakthief despite me never stealing anything. Makes sense right?

It was a design decision to introduce players to all the factions through MQ, a horrible one though. Also, first rumor you'll hear from anyone, anywhere in the game is about that little kid summoning DB in Windhelm just in case you don't accidentally miss it somehow, I guess. There's literally nothing you can do in this game without Bethesda holding your hand. Not even explore because that damn compass reveals all hidden location for you.

Thank you but we're not that re.tarded Bethesda!

If you listened to the NPC that gave the quest, she tells you that the man you seek is probably in XXXX place, but it would be a good idea to check ZZZZZ man for more information. If, you just to the XXXXX place, you won't have to pickpocket that ring.

If you just shout to the gatekeeper of college, you won't join the college itself, you just enter it. If you talk to the NPC that's inside the courtyard and start following her instructions, then you do join the college.

You don't need to join dark brotherhood for shouts, there's an alternate way to do that.

You can dodge all 3 of that without acting out of character. As for the Mask thing, I have no idea what it is, but judging by how they handled the others, there's probably an alternate way for that as well.

As for the "I don't want to be the dragonborn" thing, well, don't recover the Dragon Tablet, and you won't become one.

yes but that one you arnt deceived at all, you KNOW whats going on and how to easily and directly refuse it.
you arent forced to be an assassin simply by not taking/acepting the kid's "contract" and even if you are a good, char that decided to kill the unkind, you are still NOT forced to be an evil goth sadistic assassin (lol) by NOT doing what the quest and character asks you to... no spoilers.

the main quest leading you to mages and thieves, is a bit more delicate, as the quest DOES "dupe you" into joining and starting the quests, but you ARE not forced if you explore possibilities outside the quest log and character requests.

Wow, this thread is so weird.
People seem to read the OP then reply without reading anything else. You see that in the replies that time and again say you HAVE to join the mages guild or the thieves guild even when earlier posts explain that you don't.
For the thieves guild it just seems people want the fastest way without having to look for anything themselves, like go to an inn for info ( I know, I know that it is SO NOT RP-like, going to an inn for info :whistling: but what can you do ) and then complain about how the game forces something on them is bad and removes their choice in how to proceed.

You mean people are overreacting and being a tad hysterical about things they aren't forced to do, and would have realized if they had paid a bit more attention or looked around for an alternative?

Shocking. I am shocked. I can not describe how shocked I am. I never would have thought such a thing possible.

I wonder if anyone will complain and say "well it isn't clear enough there are choices", in which case I will wonder if they are also the ones that complain about hand holding.



Indeed.

Did people complain about this with Morrowind and Oblivion as well? I don't want to be the Nerevarine. I don't want to be the Hero of Kvatch, but if I do the main quest that is what I am! Damn you Bethesda for having a story in the game I don't have to participate in till I am good and ready.

What? I didn't say joining the DB. The only way to get the quest to destroy them, is to first do something for them. I know you don't have to join the DB to do that, but you do have to completely out of character take on a contract to get the quest to destroy them. The guard won't talk to you if you haven't went through that phase.

And yeah, of course you don't have to join the thieves guild for the main quest, but there's never an indication that the guy you need is even in Riften at all. If you turn down the crime and don't get that information, you'll stand there clueless. You can find out from the innkeeper, yes, but that's not something that you'd just know. Your quest sends you to talk to a guy, that guy won't talk to you unless you do something out of character. For me, I just went and did something else, for some people it's a huge issue. The bottom line is that it wouldn't hurt to add one or two more options to dialogues in the game, and give alternate routes. My DB example is perfect for that.

Yeah, this svcks.



I think it can be disabled in the .ini file.

when you kill the unkind you dont so for the DB at all.. in fact you can take the quest by saying to the kid "Im not with the brotherhood" and taking his contract as he tells you that grelod abuses her children etc.

also there is a difference between what the quest says, and what choices you have.
to say you have limited choices because you have a quest that tells you to do something when you can do something different, is just a wrong claim to make.

the quest tells you do steal something for a crook in return for his information, but that doesnt remove the fact that you can refuse him ask people about it instead. I do agree the quest logs and dialogues could have a more open option nature, like instead of stealing/killing X or Y it could say "find a way to" to imply there is no choices in how to aproach a problem.
but like I said, that has always been the nature of bethesda games, you usually have more than 1 way to resolve a problem or quest regardless of what characters or quests say.

You can walk/run/jump, going left, right, or backwards... to your destination... How many more choices do you need?

LOL.

Well... there are some that you seem forced to do one thing. I think the "choices" they are seeing... are...
- Fight your way through with swords
- Fight your way through with magic
- Fight your way through with magic and swords
- Sneak through with "minimal" fighting. (Some creatures are scripted to always see you. Apparently. Bad code.)
- Run through like a coward. (How my mother gets half the missions complete.)
- Snipe your way through as an archer. (My style.)

A few places have multiple paths to the same destination points. Yet they are not always obvious, and some never seen. Only seems like one way, no matter which path you take, unless you actually find another way leading you back to a previous location. Then you are like... ARG, why did they make an alternate path back to the beginning... (They can't win that battle. Everyone is a hypocrite.)

As for the outcomes... Bethesda has always been lacking in this area. They are too logical, like "Spock". They "Try" to control/program every possible event, and to simplify the process... They make all events lead to the same path. (Your choice is which path you take, to the same destination.) That is partly the problem with "telling a story". You, the player, become locked into a script... Like the game "Myst"... There is only one solution, because the next chapter happens after you complete this one, this way. (The problem is, they force it on you, instead of making it feel derived. Just lack of creativity there.)

The problem is... We keep asking them to do things that they are not able to do... Have never done, if only by accident, or luck... And the way the game is programmed, nearly makes most logical things impossible, beyond the scope of what they are able to do. Because of the limitations they constrain themselves to... (Bad voice-acting, constant need to control every aspect of the story with specifics in voice dialogue, forced story-lines, forced decisions, binding limited options to fit those limitations.)

Yeah, who didn't want to stay in Helgen to eek out a living, even if your closest friend would have been the charred Nord next door.

No, you do something for somebody else that attracts the DB attention.

The thing you do for somebody else brings a member of the DB into the open and things kick off from there.

The meta gaming aspect vs. the in game aspect. Rping the thing. If you don't take that contract there is no reason for your character to have an interaction with them that leads you to a position where you can destroy them.

It might be nice to have another path there, but not a vital thing missing from the game.



So you are saying the game should hold your hand more sometimes?



No, you have the story part of that wrong (the DB doesn't give you the initial contract, if you accept the quest and complete it that is why the DB come to you).

I thought the first actual DB mission where things branch of to join/destroy was fairly sensible. If there is only one way to leave the shack...

But again, metagaming vs actually RPing a character.

I am playing a good warrior that is going to destroy the DB. Whats this, to expose the DB involves quests I don't want my character to do? How unfair!

No, it wouldn't hurt to add dialogue options, but the complaint isn't a very strong wrong.