I was more along the lines of thinking the empire at the time didn't want refugees' coming into cyrodiil and tried to nudge them the other way

Any indication were the dunmer, argonians, and khajiit better off before the rebellion or were things always like this ? Since this is two hundred years later well before Ulfric came along, and the jarls welcomed people into into their holds back then.

It's Ulfric, primarily. Things have gotten worse for the Dunmer and Argonians under him. However, Holds are largley independent. If Vignar Grey-Mane treats his people fair, things shouldn't be bad in Whiterun. Solitude should stay the same. Markarth gets an Imperial Steward under the Stormcloaks.

Selfless? Certainly not. I think I quite heavily implied that the Stormcloaks are selfish, just that selfishness isn't necessarily a bad thing in the name of self-preservation against a threat.

My point still stands that the Stormcloaks do not wish the genocide of any (or all) other races. Their ideals do not represent that, Ulfric does not represent that, and I'd say the vast majority of their citizens and soldiers do not wish that. Again, I mention their previous allegiance to the Empire to back up my point that they are typically big supporters of the unity of Tamriel and its races. The rebellion has nothing to do with race and everything to do with principles, preservation of self, culture, society, and religion, and the fact that if the Thalmor are allowed to take control, then they will murder every single human on the face of Tamriel and then forget them so they never come back.

Stormcloaks aren't Nazis. Ulfric isn't Hitler. And I must agree with Lord Hyamentar:

I've been thinking on this quip. Much rests on the severity of the individualism in question. The perfect individual, incapable of compromise, is... The autocrat. Perfect freedom requires the perfect unfreedom of every other- the Uebermensch is meaningless without an Unter-, and the ideology thus founded must (did) radiate outward, so that we have a hierarchy of relative freedom/unfreedom. Viz (stretching things a bit): Skyrim for the Nords, and the Nords for Ulfric. Failing that: the arena, eternal carnage, the 'bad old days' of Nordic memory- Boethiah's playground.

One more reason to venerate Limit, were it needed, and (and this is where all that dross about dragon overlords is no longer crass) to fear the Dragon, which suffers none.

For one the Imperials are in the same position as the Germans at the end of WW1, so that doesn't work.

Facism wasn't built in a day you know
They were all about overthrowing corrupted materialistic urban society before going genocidal much later.

And no one here said anything about stormcloaks genociding anyone. So its moot to say who and who isn't committing genocide at the moment.

Making a sweeping generalization on the vast majority of citizen and soldiers isn't very clear. I could just as well say a vast majority of the citizens and soldiers with previous allegiance to the empire probably are still on the empire's side. Its very hand wavy. At least, I can say for a fact there are natives who were in the legion previous, still support the empire.


Last I heard the rebellion was more about driving out the empire from skyrim than the thalmor; unless you're actually trying to say the supporting the empire is supporting the thalmor, in which case, that's a whole another opinion, for a whole another thread. And there's certainly ?who has racial motivation in the rebellion.

"preservation of self, culture, society, and religion" is really really vague.
Certain modern groups would say in order to preserve their cultural identity, they need purge the corrupting elements destroying their wonderful culture, isolate themselves and prevent contact from the "other groups" to ensure their purity, and mandate future generations to follow the true path. I wonder.

So preservation of one race at the expense of another is ... not that much different. Its like plugging forsworn into the same sentence.

Certainly impaling Torygg on a sword or sieging whiterun is allll about preservation.

They fight for religious freedom, about the preservation of what makes Nords, Nords... Namely Talos. What Ulfric his motivations are isn't even that important in the discussion. The fact is that Stormcloacks fight for Talos, not even so much against the Empire. They want to be able to worship their god, not be forced to stop it. They want to be able to do so freely not be arrested and then tortured or killed by some Thalmor because they believe in him.

Their greatest problem is with the Thalmor, but in order to fight the Thalmor they first need to fight the Empire. The same goes for the Empire, their greatest problem is the Thalmor but in order to stand up against them they must first unite the provinces they still have, meaning stopping the civil war. Both sides fight for the same thing, preservation. One side just wants to preserve the Empire, the other religion.

I think it all comes down to the treaty, the empire believed that they needed to stop fighting or they would be destroyed, whereas the stormcloaks wanted to keep fighting. The division stems from their. Honestly it seems in hindsight the treaty was a bad idea, they have already lost hammerfall and possible skyrim because of it, which is the opposite of what they hoped to achieve by signing it, as in regaining strength rather then losing it. They also signed the treaty when they had momentum, it looks as if mede got cold feet and made a blunder to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyb1KYiFkBM Unfortunately Mede had no idea... He didn't know how much power the Dominion still had, how many armies they still had in reserve, he just recaptured the probably heavilly sacked Imperial City, had an Empire in turmoil, and thousands of internal problems to deal with. Even if he did know all of that, the question is how far the Imperial armies could have gone.

Would the Dunmer have accepted a war on the dominion with their own lands still in war? Which the Empire still hasn't handled by the way, would they actually be able to take Elsweyr let alone stand Valenwood and Summerset with the armies in that state? Could they have hoped for anything except for defending their borders? And if he had to defend his borders, wouldn't it be better to at least rebuild in peace then rebuild in a constant state of war?

Then there is the political situation, how many people would continue fighting back then if they had the chance? Keep in mind that the time between the signing of white-gold concordat and the start of the civil war in Skyrim is at least 20+ years. Would those nations be capable of fighting, would he have enough political support to fight? Would the economy allow it? Would the food supplies?

Without an answer to those questions I think it's to easy to judge the signing. He probably made the best decision he could given the circumstances.

Are you really so ignorant about what the Civil War in Skyrim is all about? The Stormcloaks do view supporting the Empire as supporting the Thalmor, because the Empire is currently supporting the Thalmor. That's a discussion for this topic because it is relevant. Their heart might not be in supporting them, and they certainly think they're just supporting them to bide their time and rebuild forces so they can drive them off, but they're also running a huge risk by doing this. And the lesser members of the Empire that don't really know what's going on are just following orders and supporting the Thalmor openly. General Tullius is an obvious servant to the Thalmor, as we see him associating with Elenwen multiple times, and he even invites her to the treaty in High Hrothgar where she has no purpose being.

The Civil War is about the Stormcloaks wanting to drive the Empire out of Skyrim so they can be sovereign and fight the Thalmor themselves so they can keep worshiping Talos and not suffer genocide: thus "preservation." And yes, killing High King Torygg and taking control of Whiterun is about driving the Empire out.

There are just as many people in skyrim who view the stormcloak rebellion as a powergrab.

Your assertion works both ways.

People also observe stormcloaks rebellion is supporting the goals of the thalmor; which is supported by thalmor's notes concerning ulfric. He did exactly what the thalmor wanted him to do.

The Stormcloaks are supporting the Thalmor too in the same manner, they might think they are fighting for their freedom; but they're just really weakening skyrim and the empire at the same time for the benefit of the thalmor, you forget the other half of skyrim that is fighting on the side of the legion. Essentially, starting stormcloak rebellion is forcing everyone to take the gambit the thalmor has laid out for them. NPC's have already mentioned that the thalmor did not actively persecute the worship of talos until Ulfric made public of his intent to rebel.

And it still doesn't deny ? stormcloaks who are racially motivated in the rebellion ; especially when they clearly state to believe foreigners should not be allowed to wander skyrim.

General Tullius's interactions with Elewen does not imply guilt; implying guilt by association is a common fallacy. There's a reason talking to a criminal won't get you arrested, that kind of stuff only exists in authoritarian societies.

Using the thalmor's own information on Ulfric, we can concluded elewen's presence at the execution is an attempt to secure the release or delay the execution to prolong the civil war; tullius just wants to chop ulfric's head and go home. entirely logical.

Further, elewen's presence during season's unending, her own explanation is completely valid. To keep a short leash on the treaty the empire has been bounded by. Tullius insistence in keeping her around denys Ulfric an opportunity to make demands of that flavor; and in ulfric's own words, undermines his bargaining position. Who doesn't want to have the advantage in a bargaining table? , same reasoning ulfric wants to throw her out as quickly as possible.

The idea of the Thalmor just 'dividing and conquering' doesn't sit well with me knowing their spiritual goals in this fight. I always saw it as the less people under the Empire, the less the Thalmor can use them to further their goals. The Thalmor really can't just show up with an Army in Skryim and conquer them without going through the Empire first. However, you notice that in game dialouge tells you Ufric was slated to go to Cyrodiil for trial. It's a bit suspicious to me that Elewen just so happens to be at Helgen when Tullius decides to derail the caravan for that venue. There far too many things I've seen to point to Tullius as being anything but a Thalmor pawn.

What point are you trying to make? You've made no arguments to back up the OP's claims, which is what I was arguing against, so I don't know where you're trying to go with any of this.

Care to share?

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/thalmor-dossier-ulfric-stormcloak

Since the dossier is found in elewen's solar ("What's a solar?") I'm going to up and assume she wrote it;


Inferring the incident at Helgen was not planned; and in fact something adverse the to goals to the thalmor; they don't want ulfric to die.
Exception, Elewen was to directly intervene so Ulfric would not get chopped. Then Alduin came along...
Extreme circumstances; Tullius derails the caravan to Helgen to execute Ulfric to end the rebellion as soon as possible - which is sound tactically - if the empire is to engage the thalmor with as much force as possible. And undermines the thalmor position.

That doesn't show Tullius as a pawn at all.


Point; there exist stormcloaks who have racial motivations in the rebellion (Foreigners don't belong in skyrim); the rebellion is primarily fronted by a single race (Nords); Belief in importance of protecting their culture against the taint of a "corrupt government" , "cosmopolitan taint against tradition" (empire), hijacking their religion (Talos) mirrors the rise of facism quite nicely.

Yes, cause Elewyen knew that Tullius would derail the caravan mid travel to Helgen instead of going to Cyrodiil as planned so she could interviene. It makes no sense. Furthermore, who's to say that Ulfric's death would end the war and not serve as a marter? its pretty clear to me Ulfric isn't the center part of the rebellion, he just heads it. If he were to die, I don't think the movement or armed resistance would just go away. If anything, I believe it would strengthen the nords resolve.

Becuase the thalmor are known for their skills in subterfuge and assassination ? The game clearly shows they have agents and spies running around.

And she rushes on to intervene when she found out.

We don't actually know how she was going to get Ulfric out; since Alduin took care of that before it got any further.

Horsecarts convoy carrying prisoners are going to be noticeably slower than a lone rider yes?

Both rikkie and tullius on the imperial side tells you after the unification of skyrim killing ulfric won't end the war; rikkie makes a mention to the martyr part. Both mention its an important step without ulfric at the head, the rebellion will die down quickly as the people will soon give up and return to their families. And just like Ulfric will make mention of preparing for the upcoming threat of the thalmor very soon.

From comments from npc's and certain jarl's point out how Ulfric's rebellion is strongly motivated by his charisma. And his affinity for making speeches

The same source also says a Stormcloak victory is to be avoided. The purpose of the Civil War, to the Thalmor, was to weaken the Empire. They don't want either side to win, they just want Skyrim and Cyrodiil to lose thousands of soldiers.

Both Ulfric and The Empire are assests to the Thalmor.

If she was rushing to intervene she certainly made a piss poor job out of it. Ulfric was already in line for the chopping block, Tullius already made his little speech about killing him. Ulfric was going to die in Helgen as Tullius wanted.

I wouldn't be surprised if she was there to stop him. The execution was supposed to happen in the Imperial City... lots of time for Accidents That Have Nothing to Do With Your Friendly Neighborhood Thalmor to happen that allow Ulfric's escape.. But if he dies in Helgen, there are no accidents. Except but Alduin