Foul Murder : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Fri May 04, 2012 12:56 pm

Of course worse things have happened, both in reality and in the dream but a brutal murder can hit on a more personal level than numbers and dates, especially a detailed depiction such as this. I doubt they're just desecrating a corpse, although that would probably be a graver crime in Resdayn. Does Nerevar accept this, as you put it, ‘any Chimer would and should have done the same’? Or is this ‘foul murder’ (I suspect the answer will probably be both)? Do the Chimer accept the betrayal of their lovers and friends as a part of their Daedra veneration? Is this foul murder through our human eyes but completely justifiable among the Chimer? In hindsight having a trio of god-kings looking out for you is great but I still don't know if it's worth even one life. Maybe I need to divorce myself from reality and slip into a more Chimeri morality. Although I don't want to end up trying to justify slavery!

Also, my mind can't help but wander to the ... practicalities of the event. Nasty stuff, but who can tell why elves do anything?

Good points. These are not easy questions, if you enjoy and love the Dark Elves, then pointing these lens of perception inwards is hard and testing. And means that it is the right thing to do. It is my personal belief that Boethiah tests in this way; deception, murder and treachery are simply tools that engender the greater testing of ourselves, the ones that come with hindsight. What purer example of this is the story of the Tribunal?

I don't know whether Nerevar would have agreed. Nerevar is special, and that is why this is a martyrdom, and not just another casualty. You could argue he was a naive to trust Dagoth Ur with the tools, foolish to put his life in the hands of his councillors, and out of touch with the culture of his people by doing these things. This is not to say that the murder was just or anything short of foul, but makes it less than unexpected.

» Fri May 04, 2012 12:24 pm

They were not Dunmer at that time. The Tribunal shaped the Dunmer ethos in such a way as to make their betrayal acceptable. Divine rationalization disseminated in the form of a twisted superego.

» Fri May 04, 2012 8:19 am

Cutting off the dead's legs seems to be a Dunmeri ritual or custom of some sorts. http://images.uesp.net/thumb/5/56/TR-NPCs-SothaSil.jpg/712px-TR-NPCs-SothaSil.jpgdidn't escape it either.

Sotha Sil is traditionally depicted with http://www.imperial-library.info/content/consolations-prayer. I think it's said he lost them in battle with Mehrunes(?) in Mournhold.

» Fri May 04, 2012 5:31 am

They were not Dunmer at that time. The Tribunal shaped the Dunmer ethos in such a way as to make their betrayal acceptable. Divine rationalization disseminated in the form of a twisted superego.

The cultural and spiritual structures were already in place. The Tribunal didn't rationalize anything. Azura and her curse did it for them.

» Fri May 04, 2012 2:27 pm

What My Beloved Taught Me

For this, and the drawing, I do not have any snark or witticisms left. Just: thank you, and wealth beyond measure. It was hard not to tear up during some of that. Its been a wild ride, but you still got it, sera.

» Fri May 04, 2012 2:19 pm

Sotha Sil is traditionally depicted with http://www.imperial-library.info/content/consolations-prayer. I think it's said he lost them in battle with Mehrunes(?) in Mournhold.

Good point. I'll pay more attention next time.

For this, and the drawing, I do not have any snark or witticisms left. Just: thank you, and wealth beyond measure. It was hard not to tear up during some of that. Its been a wild ride, but you still got it, sera.

Very nice.
MK knows how to write the best rogues. Now...if only he could write some, well, something on Sotha Sil. :biggrin:

but whatever, I want more of Nerevar and Vivec. Anything is fine, really.

» Fri May 04, 2012 11:51 am

Snip

» Fri May 04, 2012 7:42 pm

I honestly think MK's assertion about Vivec being the most fully realized character in videogame fiction is true. Thinking about the hermaphroditic god-king makes you forget about what he was before-well the first before, anyway. before Nerevar, Before Muatra, before his jealousy, you've got this street urchin with a smart mouth, a clever tongue, and a clear desire to BE somebody. It really makes the red moment rather poignant- this flamboyant two-toned warrior-poet is in some facets just wish fulfillment. Nerevar refusing the tools seems almost like a slap in the face to this guy. This was it! He could Be a real mover and shaker now, just like Dagoth had become! Then, later, he'd BE everybody! But Nerevar and his damn piety to that heshe [censored] always ruins everything.

» Fri May 04, 2012 10:49 am

At least Sil seems the slightest bit remorseful.

I hate that depiction of him. Resigned to the fire? Yes. Even still, he wasn't the morose "father" of 2920. Remorse isn't his sphere.

» Fri May 04, 2012 7:57 am

It's quite disturbing. Perhaps it's best not to over think the mundane where the mythic is concerned but I can't help rubbing my ankles. The Tribunal were utter bastards.

I agree, but its good to remember both mundane and mythic, not separate either (no pun intended). The murder should remind us of that.

» Fri May 04, 2012 7:30 am

I hate that depiction of him. Resigned to the fire? Yes. Even still, he wasn't the morose "father" of 2920. Remorse isn't his sphere.

He's also a person. Sotha Sil was not born a God, etc. What makes the all three (count 'em!) of the Tribunal so fascinating is this juxtaposition of mortal and divine. They were gods, but people first. It is also what makes the picture in this thread's OP so obscene: those are Gods you are looking at, slaughtering a man. Their friend. I don't think I ever got the monstrosity of the Tribune before I saw that picture.

» Fri May 04, 2012 8:19 am

I felt that Sotha Sil's expression was less remorse and more "ooh, I got Wraithguard, can't waits to use it!" and completely indifferent to the whole kill Nerevar thing that's going on.

» Fri May 04, 2012 3:16 pm

I don't see remorse in his expression at all. He looks cross.

» Fri May 04, 2012 11:54 am

I was under the impression that Vehk's head was on fire, like he is often depicted in artwork.

APPY BIRTAY MARROWIN!

» Fri May 04, 2012 10:40 am

He's also a person. Sotha Sil was not born a God, etc. What makes the all three (count 'em!) of the Tribunal so fascinating is this juxtaposition of mortal and divine. They were gods, but people first. It is also what makes the picture in this thread's OP so obscene: those are Gods you are looking at, slaughtering a man. Their friend. I don't think I ever got the monstrosity of the Tribune before I saw that picture.

Gods don't have friends.

» Fri May 04, 2012 5:39 am

Sotha Sil seems to look away from Nerevar. I can't tell whether he felt remorse. I think it's more likely that his mind was wondering elsewhere.

» Fri May 04, 2012 6:33 am

I think it's more likely that he's mind was wondering elsewhere.

Perhaps he was distracted at the grave but ecstatic prospect that he's soon to be a god. I would be. As Vivec said; "something that began in such glory and noble promise."

» Fri May 04, 2012 4:37 pm

Perhaps he was distracted at the grave but ecstatic prospect that he's soon to be a god. I would be. As Vivec said; "something that began in such glory and noble promise."

Possibly. He's the kind of guy to be excited about grand projects, but not in the traditional way, of course. He shows no emotion, but deep inside he might be quite impatient to quest for more knowledge and see what it is to be a god.

» Fri May 04, 2012 3:13 pm

In the end I think anybody would have done the same thing. None of us could fathom what its like to have Godhood sitting right in front of you, with some pointy faced jerkoff trying to deny you of it.

» Fri May 04, 2012 7:29 am

In the end I think anybody would have done the same thing. None of us could fathom what its like to have Godhood sitting right in front of you, with some pointy faced jerkoff trying to deny you of it.

As a Dunmer, and many other individuals, possible but not as likely. I'd say seeing the power of the heart and the subsequent vanishing of a enemy you were just fighting would freak some people want and produce a feeling of DO NOT WANT in others.

» Fri May 04, 2012 7:44 am

Gods don't have friends.

Doesn't sound like they are friends with you, at any rate. Vivec had plenty of friends, some of them among this forum.

» Fri May 04, 2012 3:26 am

Impressive and powerful artwork, and I really love the story of Vehk's past. :bowdown:

Um, crap. I'm mentally and physically exhausted right now so I'm unable to make comments worthy of this thread or even this forum. Happy birthday to Morrowind at least?

:dead:

» Fri May 04, 2012 6:22 pm

As a Dunmer, and many other individuals, possible but not as likely. I'd say seeing the power of the heart and the subsequent vanishing of a enemy you were just fighting would freak some people want and produce a feeling of DO NOT WANT in others.

Having Seht by their side must have given them confidence. Just saying.

» Fri May 04, 2012 6:59 pm

Doesn't sound like they are friends with you, at any rate. Vivec had plenty of friends, some of them among this forum.

None were his equals, maybe save a few very special ones.

I'd rather worship ALMSIVI, than be its friend. I would never presume to be its friend. So I think would most Dunmer.

» Fri May 04, 2012 5:24 am

None were his equals, maybe save a few very special ones.

I'd rather worship ALMSIVI, than be its friend. I would never presume to be its friend. I so I think would most Dunmer.

Better formulation: Gods have no healthy, functioning friendships. Apart from the God of Friendship. You'd like him.