The R-AI stuff isn't by itself a problem. I think it could have been used very well for padding out the guild quests -- say you have random magic quests spawn within the mages guild and you have to complete so many of them before you "rank up" in the guild. It think it would cut down on the annoyance factor of the random quests being forced while at the same time making you feel as though you earn your place in the guild itself. If I had to do 5 to be apprentice, ten to be journeyman, and 15 to be full member (with storyline quests as a reward), then I don't become archmage within the first 10 minutes of joining the guild, but it's not always the exact same quests on multiple playthoroughs nor is it the same as the OB thieves guild where it was purely a numbers game.

I don't mind the occasional random quest by a random character, though I think it might be handled better if you had a kind of clearinghouse location, so rather than the NPC coming to you, you could go to an inn or pub, and find a listing of NPCs with quests. As you do those quests (which are started by talking to the character, not by reading the list) they get replaced by other quests. No quests are really forced, but you don't miss stuff if you're bored with the main quest and looking for something new.

I would write about how I agree completely with all your points, but I stopped caring after about thread 80 of this same point. and all the other points in this thread. -_____________-
Hope bethesda gets it, because I'm getting really tired of reading it
/annoyedobservation

Couldn't agree more with all the points. It's a shame Bethesda went a giant step backwards with factions, pacing and questlines, not to mention the worst journal in any RPG I've played. If I decline to join the Thieves Guild, it should not be in my journal for one. You do get the sense Bethesda are scared people will out of things to do, it couldn't be further from the truth. I enjoy having a heap of quests to do but its really irksome I can't even decline anything, it'll still be in my journal, as if I'm expected to do it if I get bored regardless of how I roleplay.

The weakness of dragons is the consequence of the designers choice of using them as fuel for the Thum. They had to be weak so the players could start gaining / using new shouts without waiting for the end game.

I wish factions were more about providing smaller independent quests appropriate for your abilities/level. Kind of how they worked in Morrowind, the guild had skill requirements and so on, and you weren't sent of to clear out a daedric ruin at level 2, you picked flowers or killed rats. They should also bring back ranks, and make becoming a leader completely optional instead of just something they hand out to you at the end of a quest line.

That's not even a really valid excuse though. The main quest already provides shouts without fighting. In my opinion, a low level character has no business slaying dragons, let alone the world eater. Obtaining shouts and defeating dragons should have been an earned reward for our ability. Instead, it is readily, and all too eagerly handed over without real effort, diminishing their value, challenge, and relevance simultaneously.

Your quest journal is just a journal. People say things, and you write them down in case you need to refer back later. It doesn't mean you have to act on them, and in fact, you can't act on them all. I never finished all of Oblivion's--well, largely because I was too busy collecting food--but I had no intention of doing so and never felt that I wasn't going to be "finished" because I'd not done them. I'm finished when I say I'm finished, whether it's halfway through the quest list, a tenth of the way, or 90%. Many were either "not my thing" or (to be utterly frank) hard, LOL. Nuts to it.

The thing with the generated quests is that they are too simple. If they had more complexity and weren't just one step then there wouldn't be an issue.

Something I've always wanted to see since I first started playing is a passive stealth system but for that the npcs would actually need simulated senses and the physics engine would have to be able to put forth accurate sound and visual effects.

I read as far as COD. Then I stopped.
No but seriously, I see your points. I think its because they are going more mainstream and less hardcoe role playing game. The factions could have been somewhat decent if they made you do side quests to gane fame or something, but you only need to do one for the companions than you can blast through the story quests for them.

Plus the games stats and dice rolling get dumbed down to not important. In skyrim, all you have to do is make sure you have the latest best armor and weapon, than you win. No skill or training required.

Honestly, they should add more RPG elements to it, kinda like Dragon Age Origins. Not sure how that would work out, but my point is less mainstream dampered 'action' and more RPG.

I'm a simple console gamer and new to TES. I feel that Skyrim is an excellent gaming experience and easily accessible for a newbie like me.

I hope for expanded content for Theives, DB, and Mage College in a future DLC. As it is there's a lot of game for the money, so I don't get too hung on the minor things.

Also, as of late Blood and Frost Dragons have been kicking my butt, forcing me to flee at times.

Perks are interesting, but here needs to be a reset option for console users. As for any useless perks I disagree. There just aren't any great uses for some perks. I for one love lock picking and pick pocketing as they provide entertainment and profit by means other than killing an NPC. Alas, you can't use them exclusively. Gotta grab a sword sooner or later. That's the real perk problem.

I personally liked all the guild quests - except for the being made leader of the guild bit. As dumb as it might sound, if each of those quests had treated me like an "apprentice" until the end, and at the end I got some fairly cool updates for being a full member, each of the guild quests would have felt pretty solid to me.

The fact that my main is the Harbinger of Companions, the head of the Thieves' Guild and the Arch-mage of the Mage's College... despite easily being nowhere near the skill level of the previous leaders, feels silly and forced to me. Isn't being Dragon Born enough?

THere is nothing wrong with that. I just found it funny that the design mantra for doing that probably was along the lines of them wanting lower end quests people could do if they ran out of things to do or didn't want to work on standard quests, in a game that is already overloaded quest wise as is.

To those complaining about Factions being too short.. are you fast travelling?

Oh I agree too. I'm not saying skyrim is bad, and in fact it does many things I consider more important right that Oblivion fell short on (world design for one, and the dungeon design is much more interesting and creative ).

This was just a thread for me to reflect on the parts of the game they really dropped the ball on - even if I still think its might be one of my favorite TES games. Morrowind will always hold a special place in my heart though for being the one TES game where everything was smartly and well designed (just executed terribly on some major fronts, such as combat).

I feel like issue 2 could be "patched up" if they just allowed you to cross off quests in a journal, that would go into a "backburner" section of the journal if you will. So that way you can choose what you want to have up without having to scroll through a large list of to-do's, or "get rid" of quests you would never ever do in the first place, including ones in the misc section.

Issue 3 can be patched and balanced over time, as a matter of fact I'm pretty sure I read that beth is looking into balance issues with Heavy Armor. I don't think they can totally fix what I don't like about it (perks become more important than the skill level in determining how good you are at something), but that kind of thing can hopefully be fixed with a well designed mod.

Issue 4 can be patched and balanced over time, in the sense that they could easily make it so dragons spawn less but becaomse more intimidating, except on "lower" difficulties.

I have only finished the Companions guild quests (as of last night). I wouldn't say it was short... probably because I didn't fast travel.. however I will say I would have liked to be a bit longer or more importantly feel more rewarding for making it to the top. I felt like it was just handed to me. Now there have been a lot of posts lately about NPC's not reacting to you (example and NPC telling you to join the mage's guild even after you have become the arch-mage of it) as if that is true throughout the entire world. The fact is they ignore every NPC that does comment about what you have done and only mention the few that don't and present that as how all NPC's react. I had nearly every NPC in the guild comment to me on becoming the harbringer and a soldier in whiterun commented on some mission I had taken as well.

I do agree that there needs to be more complexity in the guilds since a warrior with hardly any magic at all can be arch-mage. I understand Bethesda wants to allow gamers to do everything with one character in one playthrough but that really cheapens the experience for those that buy the game and plan on playing it for longer than one month before moving on to the next AAA title. I understand this and have been pacing myself… I play less than 2 hours a day and I won’t join the college of winterhold with my current Nord warrior character I am saving that for my next character which will be a battlemage. But it would be nice to know once I do join the mages guild and I try to advance through it at some point I hit a brick wall with a “You might want to get more experience before taking this job…” because I am trying to become arch-mage as a level 7 character. Make advancement in a guild not a side show but a commitment to experience and leveling into that position. And throw in some bad ass perks for being the head honcho.

Well, with 3., the skills weren't balanced before, so one cannot say they were cut down.
I don't know if there are completely useless ones, exept for lockpicking.
If one plays as a thief one could at least make use of the bribery-perk, if one tries a straigth playstyle without reloading.
And smithing gives a big bonus to armor type, so one can choose between this or the armor-perks.
Maybe some constallations are for a more experimental playstyle, if one focuses on sneaking one gets weak at higher levels,
but this could be fixed by paying a trainer.
I don't think it's perfect, but better than before.

I agree with your list. It's well thought out and hits on some great points.

One thing to add is the game forces you in to some things and pays no attention to how you're playing the game. My warrior character was forced to join the mage's guild just so I could go look around inside, set first that wasn't a big deal. However I now have to contend with random encounters centered around bring a mage which I'm not. I don't like having some random idiot pop up accuse me if thinking I'm a bad ass mage and challenge me to a magee duel with no option to tell him "[censored] you I'm a warrior". It's even worse since consoles are still 1.2 and mages [censored] me.

Completely agree with the guild pacing. In the DB quest, you just have to Usually when I play a game I overlook the flaws and only really see them when I think about it, but the guild and faction quests just had me gritting my teeth at the screen.

The Daedric quests were AMAZING!

I agree, dragons become a chore after a while. I also sigh a little when I see a dragon.

<_< I would love them to organize the quest book, give a me a hide function so I can just hide quests I don't ever plan on doing. Otherwise I like the amount of content but it does need a little work so that they scale with the character better...

I agree skills and perks need to be balanced a little better. 2H + Smithing made my character too strong too fast, which I like that play style but I don't want to be that powerful, having a hard finding my balance there so I've begun to do other play styles but even then I've had characters bump into me and not notice me sneaking with 100 in sneak... >_>

I haven't touched a faction yet, but now I'm a little afraid to.

Just give it some time. 99% of these complaints will be fixed by modders once the CK is released.

The depth of the games IS declining though. The tech is getting better, and the 'pretty' factor is certainly increasing, but, the games themselves are becoming more shallow, less story driven, and overly simplified. Look at the UI from morrowind, thru skyrim, try and convince me this isn't a game geared for the 'casual' crowd. (which, unfortunately, is where the money is.) Would be nice if beth would come out with a 'hardcoe' version, where you COULDN'T be everything to everyone in one playthru.

Kudos to you, sir. It's rare to see a gripe thread that actually makes a succinct and justifiable argument for improvement.

Really agree on the questlines. Too short and too little work to climb to the top. They could learn a lot from re-playing morrowind, where you not only had to do tasks, but actually show an aptitude. A bit ridiculous that one can become Archmage while hardly being adept at magic at all. Dark Brotherhood, for example, was way too rushed. There should have been a lot more filler quests in the early part before they started sending you after the high-profile targets. It's kind of silly that one can be the master of every guild within a week or two of joining. Compare to Morrowind, where getting to the end of the questline entailed a major commitment on the part of the player, as well as an aptitude in the factions chosen skills.

Hate to say it, but I think the root of the problem is the voiced dialogue. Getting actors to record all those lines costs money, and takes time. It's also the reason that nobody has near as much to say as they used to. I'd hate to see the voiced dialogue go, but at the same time, I'd rather have longer questlines with more options.

Also strongly agree with the dragons being too easy. They should have been fewer and more far between. Personally, I felt like they introduced them way to early in the game.

Hate to agree here but have to. Factions were short this time around. No feeling of reward. I LOVED getting bonuses in OB for the Dark Brotherhood.

Of all those I feel the perk system is the worst. Like you said, so many of them are just worthless and the rest just feel cobbled together.

I agree with you for the most part, OP.

• Faction Questlines: I totally agree. I felt like I became the head cheese way too quickly. Maybe more story depth would remedy the situation. Maybe more interactions from the key players of the questlines.
  
• Radiant Quests: Kinda sorta. I like being bombarded with a bunch of little miscellaneous quests. Gives me something "official" to do, other than cave raiding and looting loots from dead bandits.
  
• Skill Balances: Eh, I see your point, but too indifferent to worry about it. I play the way I play. Other people play the play they way. If I want to be overpowered, so be it. If the others want to be overpowered, so be it. Who am I to take away someone else's fun just because I feel like I overpowered myself and everything is too easy? If I wanted to make things balanced and more difficult for myself, I can.
  
• Dragons: Totally agree, but I understand. Their the source of power for the Dragon Shouts. What good is finding all these shouts if I can't find no dragons to steal their souls from to unlock my shouts with?