It's a scary thought. Thinking that your every thought, every choice, everything you do is predetermined. That you don't have "free will". I choose not to believe that, but only because the alternative is quite unsettling.

I think having free will is more unsettling. Imagine having the freedom to make all the wrong decisions and screw things up for yourself.

But the whole point of quantum mechanics is that even if everything is predetermined, from our point of view it's completely the same as if it isn't because we have absolutely no way of finding out what is predetermined to happen, so to us it's completely irrelevant whether free will exists in the proper sense or not. Hence I choose (oh the irony...) to admit that I have no idea instead of deciding to believe either. :shrug:

Besides I don't actually give a damn about it anyway because as I've said, it's completely irrelevant.

That's not even on a quantum level. There's no way in the foreseeable future to even have all the knowledge of what is happening even on a molecular level, let alone actually predict how that will affect visible actions.

What isn't on the quantum level? Free will? Our thoughts being based on chemical reactions and electricity (both of which are quantum particles doing stuff) I really don't see how it isn't.

Mathmatics, Physics, Chemestry. If you asked some reputable scientists about them, and the differences between, hopefully what you would get is that what we have discovered in math and science is just a language that describes what is. It is what we see reflected in nature, it is not nature.

As the Lyrics of the song Freewill by Rush go:

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill

Well, you really have two options. Either the quantum level is ACTUALLY not predetermined, and thus we obviously can't predict it, or it is, but the point where our knowledge and ability stops us from being able to predict and know stops long before we even get there.

EDIT: As for math being reflected in nature, and not nature itself, absolutely not. Every science on down is some form of applied math. Mathematics is reflected in nature because it governs it ABSOLUTELY.

Well actually every science except mathematics maybe, but mathematics is the science of our own minds and nothing else (sort of like meta-psychology, in a weird way...), and if we can't accept that our own minds are capable of forming a proper language of describing their own selves then to hell with everything.


edit:

That doesn't mean anything. It's still just saying "AHA you did something - you have chosen to do it!" That's precisely what we're discussing here - whether you actually have chosen to do what you did or not. You could have as well just said "I choose because I do" or even better "circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works" instead of posting some lyrics to make it sound cooler.

Sweet, so how do you define math?

Welcome to the world of modern physics. If you can answer that, I'm sure there's some honorary doctorates in it for you.

I think about this topic every once in a blue moon. But never have I ever thought about it on a quantum level. Thanks guys. Thanks for adding another layer of complexity to my thought processes. :mellow:

So is math a societal agreement?

I am not going to let you base you arguments against free will on an if.

[edit] And also, back you my question: how do you define math?
/\ well, you don't really have to

\/ hilarious

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ooa8nHKPZ5k
LOL every time someone mentions math or says anything about math that comes into my mind

Mathematics is our thoughts written down. Human sees a bunch of matter and thinks "one apple", he sees some other bunch of matter and thinks "two apples", he sees some other bunch of matter and thinks "three cool cats." It's all in your mind, everything - numbers, rectangles, integrals, formulas, it's all just made up by us, all just our thoughts. Mathematics is just writing those thoughts down. (I'm not saying that nothing except our minds exist, I'm just saying that the labels like "apple" and "cat" etc. don't exist beyond our minds.)





Two song references in this post, I'm getting better and better...

Math is not an if. It is an observational actuality. What is in question is what defines the rules of mathematics in our universe.

Exactly, it is an observation. Actuality comes into question as broader and broader applications are used.

So what initially defines it?

[edit] nothing, or something?

also, running out of room so another thread, or different form of the discussion might be needed. Right now, the hammer is hovering in green.

@ Veeno, that is language.

Like I said and you ignored, mathematics is defined (only) by our thoughts, which are in turn "defined" by our minds.

What is a language?

And yes, in a sense mathematics is a language.

language is an internal realization, and possibly understanding, of something that is not yourself.

what the heck, even yourself.

language is an internal realization or understanding of something.

That's not really true. The things that we describe with math exist whether or not we understand them and have defined them.

Right there, you separated math and the things.
And that the things and laws that are in place in this world exist whether or not we are here to realize them.

What, you seriously believe that numbers exist beyond our minds? Give me a one, please. Give me a zero. Give me i.

Anything good, seti?

Money governs us, if we have no money we can't afford to eat or drink, afford medical care, afford shelter. So we strive to work for money by contributing to society so we can survive, our work is used to power the big secular machine of society. Tell me if we have any free will if we have to follow the rules of society to earn a living?