Deity Matrix:

FUN.

Yes it broke the immersion to be invisible. Yes, it made the game easy. Yup I could waltz into oblivion, yes I could make guards cry for the mommys, yes I could paralyse people mid conversation and get away with it... and it was HILARIOUS. Watching someone talk about mudcrabs whilst slowly falling backwards was just FUNNY!

And, I consider myself a realistic gamer, on my serious play throughs. I play through with eat sleep and drink mods. Knowing that I COULD complete 7 quests, join the mages guild, aquire 5 grand soul gems, slay 5 legendery beasts, then spend thousands of pounds to become tottaly invisble NEVER EVER bothered me. The fact I could scour this ruin for this artifact, complete this quest for this amulet, devilishly steal this item and travel half across the provinence into another random ruin and take another artifact to become 100% damage resistant, DID NOT BOTHER ME.

And you say, it breaks immerssion to know there is a Win button. Jesus, how complicated are your buttons??

An argument I agree with is that is breaks immerssion because your character should be using ever resauce to survive in a dangerous world. I agree and for a short while this bugged me. However... on a roleplay level, how does your character KNOW that he can complete these steps? The only way this could happen to an everyday character not trying do it is if he accidently stumbles upon 5 grand soul gems, randomly finds 5 legendery beasts, and over the course of this long, long process, never gets the urge to use one on something else.

Ok, lets say you don't like roleplaying, and as a gamer, you belive you should be tested to breaking point strain and should not be expected to NOT use cheats when they are presented, despite their purpose is there not a valid tactic but as comic relief. You belive the lore and realisem of a game should never be punctured in the slightest in the name of enjoyment.

I suppose you post this complaint on almost EVERY SINGLE GAMES forums, too?

Morrowind GOTY edition on xbox came with 3 cheat codes. Saints row two, cheat codes, crysis, console commands, oblivion console commands fallout CC NV, CC. On xbox original, there were sections in my favorite magazines dedicated to cheat codes, there were that many. Infact, I picked up a magazine that was 100 pages long and every month printed 100 pages of cheat codes, glitches and exploits.

There is rarely a game you cannot exploit. Why draw the line at oblivion? and why draw the line at enchantment/potion exploits? Lets get rid of the difficulty slider shall we, thats a resause we can use. That makes the world lets dangerous.

The development of skyrim is not about what is found in YOUR game. It is about what is in OUR game. You just need some restraint and some tolerence.

More freedom, the sandbox feeling is what originally got me hooked on the series, the lore in morrowind was also one of the reasons why I started playing,
it felt so alien and different from all the boring generic fantasy. So the lore to some extent is also why I at least like parts of the games.

:thumbsup:

Here's the thing, Sovern. The way I look at it, if you want there to "still be a challenge ... even at the 300 hour mark", then why would you even make a chameleon or DR suit?

Seriously, I'm honestly confused here. If you knew that doing some involved, completely optional, chain of things that would make your game un-fun...... why would you do it?

Unless the very thought that there could be a "more powerful / better / ______" way you could be doing things upsets you, I can't see it as a problem.

(And honestly, that would be an even bigger problem, since some skill sets / gear sets / etc are probably "better" than others, and having to always use the best would keep you from trying any of them. Most of the fun in these games, at least for people who do multiple characters, is trying new/different/odd things to see how they work.)





:thumbsup:


1 second of paralyze (I've gotten that with some "different sigil stone" enchantment mods) is pretty amazingly broken too. The couple times I've gotten a weapon with that, I've stuck it away in a chest almost immediately. (only to be used when trying a mod that someone put stunningly overpowered enemies in, for example. )


edit:


Again, :thumbsup:

Well, in Oblivion, I ransacked like 30 Oblivion gates until I could enchant each of my pieces with a sigil-stone Shield spell. Combine that with 100% magic resistance (Breton + Mundane Ring) and you can pretty much imagine that I was unstoppable :hehe: .
But consider the fact that there are both cheats and mods to alter the rules in any which way one desires. Might as well not bother with artificial limits as it all boils down to your own choice of whether you want to challenge yourself or not (as it always did).

Exploits fall under Cheats, Hints, and Spoilers, so it wouldn't be nice to list them here.

Actually, if Trophies are in, then the players who use the exploits will more easily get them, for example a 100% chameleon player can do all quests, kill everyone and do all the things for such thropies without any kind of problems, while those who don't exploit such things because they do not want to ruin the whole idea of the game, might have a hard time and/or find himself spending hours upon hours more on the same things. Balance is never a bad thing, if you want to cheat a game and all the enemies in it and everything else in the game, get a PC and enter the god mode and stop whining about the cheats not being there in the game for you. End is the same anyways.

It's not an exploit until you know how to do it. And the game doesn't tell you, so you only learn by doing.

It's a great system and people are silly for arguing about it, it's a very integral part of the Elder Scrolls.

I don't see what's so bad. You play the game and you get better at skills. Your reward increases for working hard on your abilities, allowing you to achieve greater and greater things.

You also can't access or use most of the "exploits" your first time around, because you lack the knowledge of them.

Someone please tell me how performing an exploit in a game you've already beaten is exploiting it?

It's like cheat codes. They used to exist for people who had already challenged themselves and then wanted to just play the game however they wanted, without worrying about tedium.

I look at it the same way...

It beats a rolling credits screen...

I don't mind an ending screen if the story is great like in Fallout 1 or New Vegas........

I prefer that my game be tough and challenging. I want to be locked out of certain areas because of high level enemies, but as I level up, I want to be able to beat those enemies.

Jesus, how many times!!??

It is not about "cheating". Its not about being able to run through the game instoppable. Why WOULD someone want to do that? yes yes, trophies... but be honest with me. How much do you care if someone ELSE rents the game, spends hours getting full invisiblity then gets all his trophies before returning it? Does that effect you at all? In anyway, shape, or form?

Also "get a pc and enter god mode". Of course. spending one thousand of my precious english pounds so that I can not take damage is a reasonable alternative to having an obscure method of turning invisible and wrecking mayhem, isn't it? Seriously, what is you actual point here?

Yes balance is important. And balance is there. And also, the choice to not have balance is there for people who don't want it. As it was, as it shall be. Just because you don't want it doesnt mean we cant have it.

The trophies thing (and really, how many actually care about that stuff..... this online brag-profile/social networking thing is so odd) makes me mention again - there's a difference (at least I see a difference) between bugs & exploits (unintended things & cheats) and just stuff that the developers put in that some people consider overpowered (chameleon or DR suits).


Sure, fine.... if you care about trophies, then actually cheating (using bugs / exploits / console / gameshark) is Bad?. But actual game features =/= exploit to me.


(I'm reminded, somewhat, of the rare post that'll pop up every few months, where someone insists that loading a save after dying is a "cheat".)

well i personally hope some of the cheaper exploits are fixed (chameleon suits, absorb health weapons). but it won't be too bad if they aren't fixed.

I don't really care about gamerscore or trophies or anything. it amazes me what some people will do to max out their gamerscore for a game. I just want the game to be more organically challenging. I don't have too much trouble keeping myself from "cheating" but i do tend to make myself slightly more powerful than i wish i could, and i wish i didn't have to limit myself like that in order to have a fun, challenging game...

I'm shocked there hasn't been a poll about this. Total freedom (or at least morrowindish or oblivionish freedom) vs Removing "Exploits."
Options are always good. Since this is just opinion, there's no convincing to do. If or when I find overpowered advantages, I think it's exciting. As someone already said, it is very fun for a short while. Once it ceases to be fun, I (shock!!!) STOP using it. The thought that I could be rampaging through everything doesn't lurk in my mind, because I know that what I'm doing is more FUN. That's what's important. What is the most fun? Which style of play is most fun for me? That's what these games should be focused on... offering the most ways to play.
In Oblivion, I never thought that bows were the most effective way to fight, but I like them. I didn't care about efficiency. I care about what's fun. And I don't want more efficient fighting styles removed. If someone else wants to use them, I'm happy they've got the option.

Considering how much deliberate work you have to put in, to make a 100% chameleon suit, the fact that you think not having one is "having to limit myself" is kind of strange to me. :shrug:


But, like I've said before, I'm constantly not doing "the best/most powerful" thing all the time in these games. Because trying different stuff (different gear, different "classes"/skillsets, etc) is the fun part. If you were always doing the ideal/most efficient thing (and otherwise angsting over the fact that you were "limiting yourself"), it seems like the game wouldn't be much fun. :sadvaultboy:


(I'm one of those silly people who picks armor by appearance, not by stats, for instance. Until a game forces me to upgrade, which is always a shame. My Fallout:NV character tried to wear Reinforced Leather for as long as possible, much beyond the point where stronger armor was available. But eventually, there just wasn't enough healing to keep me from being forced to use something uglier. But I've still never used Power Armor in either modern Fallout game. Not enough stats in the world to make me suffer that ugliness. )

Now, I don't even see what's the problem here, BGS doesn't just get their old game and add stuff to it then call it a new one. They've said several times that they're working on every game of theirs independently. They look at the old game, see what worked what didn't then start out with a clean stale.

I don't think most of the changes are because they're trying to fix exploits in from past games (except maybe the leveling system, but has nothing to do with freedom), but because the entire game works differently.

There are going to be exploits in Skyrim, but different ones.

I have to disagree. My first roll threw the Oblivion Mages guild lead me to the spellmaking alter where I made full use of my creative mind to come up with all kinds of spells that enemies couldn't contend with.

The elderscrolls worlds are trying to allow the player to make a character in a beleivable world. They want you to see the world through that character's eyes, to roll play as someone else for a while. It may be an action rpg, but its still an rpg. And when my mage sees a spell with a massive aoe with pretty solid damage, or when my theif sees some gear that would add up to 100% chameleon, they wouldn't think twice about not using them. I shouldn't have to step out of character just to make sure I don't abuse the system. Can I step out of character? Yes, I've played without god spells before, and it was fun. I can hold myself back if I want to, its not a matter of willpower. Its a matter of the gameplay in the first place. Why can't it be like that from the get go and save all the godspells till your a complete master with that skill/those skills?

The vanilla game should be built towards a believable world. We should be overpowering when our skills are master class, but not before then. At weaker levels there shouldn't be ways to be almightily strong yet. Smarter ai will dampen exploits a lot, but there are a lot of other things that should be shaved down. Mods are there to allow players to change their game how they want. The vanilla game however, should be built in a ballanced manner that makes the world feel more believable.

But you CANT do anything outragous without being master level. Maybe slightly overpowered yeah, but thats balancing, not removing abilities that needs to be done. If you're theif character found the way to 100% charmelion by accident before level 25 I'd like to know how, exactly....


I think that with freedom comes the ability to exploit your freedom. I mean, comeon. You have the freedom to jump. You can exploit this by jumping somewhere you cant be followed and using a bow. But you dont ask to get rid of the jump button, do you? You can console anything you like. Do you ask that we get rid of the console on PC? Alchemy can produce money faster than anything else. Get rid of that too? The combat A.I is easy to exploit. Get rid of skill based fighting?

Its not about "get rid of this, get rid of this, get rid of this". Thats UK goverment policy way of doing things. Its about work arounds, and balancing.

Never said they should remove stuff, they should remove exploits. I don't really think they have removed anything either. I remember saying that a theif would use 100% chameleon without a second thought, so expecting a theif not to use that gear in order to be fair is not the way to go about an rpg. Instead, make it much harder to get that gear, I could get complete chameleon by 15 at the earliest if I really pushed for it, and make it so that the ai knows how to react to it. Life detect is a pretty easy to get and use spell, just saying that some npc's should learn to use it. Silence wouldn't hurt either. Don't get rid of the gear, get rid of the exploit.



Any archer that knew what they were doing would use the highground, but if you do that you end up exploiting the system because the ai doesn't know how to handle now having a path to get to you. That exploit is removed when npc's learn how to handle an archer who knows hight is a good thing. Archers shouldn't have to backpeddle in order to not break the game.

Spells could be made at lower levels that were beyond rediculous. Charm shopkeeper could be made at a lower level, and even if you were fair and gave the spell a five to ten second leway it still was a pretty low level spell that made everyone you ever run into more or less love you. That'll be removed with real time conversations and real time trade menues that react and change when the spell finally wares off...along with shop guards getting upset when you cheat their boss.

Spellmaking hasn't really been removed either. The Dev's gave you two hands, use them. Want to combine an ice and a drain speed spell? Put one in your left and the other in your right and get at it. Better yet you could cast a blizzard cone with the ice hand and charge up a drain speed aoe spell in your other hand. Its all up to how you want to use the spell effect at the time, which is a much better magic system in my opinion.

Guess the difficulty slider needs to be removed. Someone could cheat by playing the game on normal difficulty, or God forbid!, on easy.

How about removing the gamma correction? A player may go into a dungeon which is too dark, and instead of using a torch, the player can cheat by making the game brighter. So, the gamma correction has to go.

They also need to remove races. For example, how many Oblivion quests/places require the player be underwater? A player could cheat those quests by choosing his character to be an Argonian and being able to breath underwater. Clearly an exploit. Or, if a player decides to be a mage, he can exploit the game by playing a Breton.

Magic must also be removed. A player fighting a beast may cheat by using regeneration magic when hurt, while the beast has no magical resource. Clearly an exploit..

... and don't get me started on balance...

Character levels must be removed. All NPCs and creatures need to be at the exact same level to make fighting balanced.

All armor, weapons, magic, - oh, wait, magic is no longer there because it was removed due to being an exploit, never mind magic - they need to have the exact same statistics: damage, speed, reach, etc. Otherwise, it makes the game unbalanced, not to mention, a player may exploit the game by using a weapon that's too powerful.

Running must be disabled during combat. The player should not be allowed to run around to allow him/herself to regenerate health/stamina. This is clearly an exploit. What's next? Letting players climb rocks?

FREEDOM!!! ;^) Keep the freedom, and let the people enjoy some self discipline! We can't expect developers to prevent every possible exploit. Some people are ingenious for finding loopholes in every system created. It's in our nature. Developers endeavor to create balanced, bug free games, and some do it better than others, but for games like The Elder Scrolls, it's hard enough for them to get as bug free as possible much less make them perfectly balanced in every possible way.

I've never had a character with 100% chameleon party because it's completely unnecessary. I usually get sneak up high enough that a lower % chameleon does what I need.

Peace, +Petrose

P.S.

"It's like cheat codes. They used to exist for people who had already challenged themselves and then wanted to just play the game however they wanted, without worrying about tedium." -Michael87cn

Mike, I always thought that cheat codes were originally for the developers to test the game quickly and efficiently, but people who played the games discovered how to find the codes and started using them to cheat the game play.

I'm sure Todd 'The Hatchet' Howard is taking careful notes. Todd's way. The only way to play.

Another possibility would be to include some negative aspect to effect that would otherwise be unbalancing. For example, around 70-80% chameleon or so you could also start having a drain magicka, or drain health, etc. effect kick in and it would increase along with the chameleon effect. A the chameleon effect approached 100% the negative effects would become quite high. The player could still get to 100% chameleon, but would have to deal with the issues as well. That would help change an exploit into just another type of choice.

My first time playing through Oblivion I found 100% chameleon, spell absorb, reflects and stacking alchemy and spell fortifying effects easily. Ruined my ability to suspend disbelief. I kept thinking, "wtf is wrong with all of these idiot npcs who are not all walking invulnerable shadows that noone can see or touch. Not to mention that stacking poisons made every enemy [censored] easy as well. I think the whole problem with status effects was the lack of a cap in their effectiveness.

I think you've confused exploits with playing the game.

Difficulty slider should be removed, or at least changed, not because it's cheap but because having it set to HARD just made monster more boring to kill. The fact that i could still be all-powerful on the hardest setting made the slider useless. The game SHOULD be hard when the slider is on the hardest setting.

if a player chooses to play on easy, he should expect an easy game, but if i play on hard, I expect a tough game but i don't get one.

Well i kinda do want this, i don't know about you. the dungeons should be too dark to see in unless you have a torch, light spell or night eye. I think it would make the game more fun, but that's just my opinion

Choosing a race is a trade-off choice. if you choose an argonian, yes you can breath underwater but you won't get the extra magic a breton gets, or the charm animal spell a bosmer gets, so those are not cheating. It's up to bethesda to make those races the most balanced they can possible be.

if magic is overpowered, then its power should be toned-down. If an otherwise ridiculously tough battles become near-impossible to lose with a simple regenerative spell then it is overpowered and therefore gamebreaking (unless you it is a high enough level spell in which the enemy shouldn't stand a chance, but you shouldn't be able to use such a powerful spell on a low level). just because an enemy creature can't use magic or weapons doesn't make the game unbalanced.

do you know what balance means? it does not mean that all these features must be taken out, but rather that with all these features the game should still have some challenge. some challenge to balance the benefits of these features out.